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RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air - 2/6/2022 3:30:16 AM

AlvaroSousa

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I thought about doing what CEAW did but WarPlan is more like World in Flames. I have been testing the new retreat and overrun rules. They seem to be working out ok to compensate for the new air rules. Soviets are retreating instead of blowing up. So the losses should be less.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to generalfdog)

Post #: 91

RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air - 2/6/2022 9:20:26 AM

CHINCHIN

Posts: 416
Joined: 9/2/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: stjeand
The UK has to neglect the BOA to start so...they are basically dumping all into units.

They can have...at least 2 armor and 9 large corps...possible fighter or 2 also.

I have had 2 armor, 2 mech and 7 large corps before...but that was pre air so really need to retest it because more air would be better.

As I said...sveint focused on UK and French fighters...I suspect he put full repair in them.
The Germans lost 220 air...which as you know is upwards of 2000PP to repair. That would be almost 3 months of full PP...and I was repairing them full every turn.
Took France in late September and was only able to build 1 more armor for my war in Russia...so 5 armor and 2 mech for Russia.
War over.
AND I was using supply trucks on my fighters every turn...did not help.

Of course would need to test this more...

But I know I have never lost a big BEF for the Allies...they never get out of France.
One players did...but had lost 4 corps including an armor...that is a LOT to lose...
AND needed to repair all units.

I am applying this to my mod to avoid full UK aid to France.

UK begins the 1939 scenario with:
1 unit of fighters and another of bombers less.
3 corps 5/20 replacing 3 corps 5/30
2 divisions 5/10 replacing 2 corps 5/20
-25PP Resource Pacific Allied

On 2/1/41 +65 PP Allied Pacific Resources (to compensate for initial decrease)
On 4/1/42 -40 PP Resources Pacific Allied (to leave it as the official setting)

as you see?

_____________________________

My native language is Spanish, and no English language mastery, sorry.

(in reply to stjeand)

Post #: 92

RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air - 2/6/2022 10:37:23 AM

ncc1701e

Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
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quote:

ORIGINAL: generalfdog

I get incremental change is needed I do wonder if there is some way to force or encourage a forward or more historical Russian deployment but maybe make them a little better or get a few more units?

Few things:
1. If you are not doing a forward defense with USSR, the Germans will DoW USSR early for two reasons:
a) First one is that they can advance in USSR at a very low cost in effectiveness
b) Second one is that they can perform rail repair each turn to bring supply to the frontline

2. If you are not doing a forward defense with USSR, you will not increase your based land experience which is a bad thing at the end because your army will not reinforce with trained troops.

One last thing I am thinking of and that is not currently inside the game is that USSR should fight to save their factories. Cities like Kiev, Kharkov should be kept until a certain date otherwise factories won't go to the Urals.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to generalfdog)

Post #: 93

RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air - 2/6/2022 12:32:04 PM

stjeand

Posts: 1508
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From: Aurora, NC
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Chinchin...be careful weakening the UK too much...
They need to have enough units to fight off Sealion, but NOT so many as to put 8 corps in France without work.

Maybe move some units to the deployment queue mid 40 or something...which will be to late to support the BEF but enough to support the UK.

France...replace something with a calvary...they had them they used them. Not sure why they do not have them in 39 but do in 40.
They should have a unit. Maybe replace 2 divisions...or replace one and have a half str calvary corp.
Could even change their corp to a division. I did not check how many they had.
But adds a little flavor.

ncc...

I for one try to save my factories in Russia...each turn with 5 less PP is a bad turn as well as the manpower loss. But yes IF the factories are overrun before they get away they should not be able too.
BUT I also feel that like Germany the USSR should get bumps in production. Perhaps people work harder as the Germans advance? So if they get to location X by end of 41 they bump...BUT then the German might ignore that location so it needs to be a critical spot.

I was thinking the same for the UK...they were far from ready to fight in 1940...they thought the Germans were going to sit in trenches. Suddenly that was not the case which was why I was thinking they have to garrison the UK with X str of units and X number of units....that would keep them from over powering France. Just have not spent time modding a scenario since no one wants to play them.

I spent weeks on a Pacific one...waste of my time but I learned a lot. Have not even opened WPP in over 6 months.

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 94

RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air - 2/6/2022 2:34:30 PM

CHINCHIN

Posts: 416
Joined: 9/2/2012
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I think with the UK changes I mentioned earlier, it forces the UK to focus on defending their island, but they can still send some corps to France.

I like to make Mods, I play them by myself in hotseat, and if someone plays a PBEM, great. In addition, Alvaro can see something interesting about the mod and incorporate it in some way into the official game.

For the USSR at the moment I have this planned:

USSR Begins 1939 scenario with :
+5PP in the Moscow area
New City �Central Asia�: 10 Morale/MP/PP

Evacuated factories => evacuation date => operational date in new location:
Leningrad 5PP=>
Kiev 5PP => 6/20/41 =>
Kalinin 5PP =>
Tula 5PP =>
Kursk 5PP =>
Kharkov 5PP =>
Stalino 5PP =>
Stalingrad 10PP =>
Saratov 5PP
Moscow (first phase) 10PP =>
Moscow (second phase) 10PP =>

I need to calculate the dates of evacuation and installation of the factories.

< Message edited by CHINCHIN -- 2/6/2022 2:37:48 PM >

_____________________________

My native language is Spanish, and no English language mastery, sorry.

(in reply to stjeand)

Post #: 95

RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air - 2/6/2022 4:17:56 PM

ncc1701e

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CHINCHIN

I like to make Mods, I play them by myself in hotseat, and if someone plays a PBEM, great. In addition, Alvaro can see something interesting about the mod and incorporate it in some way into the official game.

+1 as long as the game is fully supported by its designer, the official scenario is the one to play. I have started a mod myself but I stop it because it will create other balance problems. Better to focus on one scenario, this is already hard enough to find the right balance...

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to CHINCHIN)

Post #: 96

RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air - 2/6/2022 4:24:26 PM

ncc1701e

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From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CHINCHIN

For the USSR at the moment I have this planned:

USSR Begins 1939 scenario with :
+5PP in the Moscow area
New City �Central Asia�: 10 Morale/MP/PP

Evacuated factories => evacuation date => operational date in new location:
Leningrad 5PP=>
Kiev 5PP => 6/20/41 =>
Kalinin 5PP =>
Tula 5PP =>
Kursk 5PP =>
Kharkov 5PP =>
Stalino 5PP =>
Stalingrad 10PP =>
Saratov 5PP
Moscow (first phase) 10PP =>
Moscow (second phase) 10PP =>

I need to calculate the dates of evacuation and installation of the factories.

That been said, I was more on the idea to:
1. increase PP in Kiev from 5PP to 10PP
2. increase PP in Kharkov from 5PP to 10PP

And perform an event so that USSR is evacuating 5PP to the Urals from Kiev and Kharkov leaving always 5PP.
The problem is to find the correct date.

Because if Germany starts Barbarossa in April 1941, August 1941 is much too far away.
I did not find a condition date in the event code yet.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to CHINCHIN)

Post #: 97

RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air - 2/6/2022 4:38:30 PM

ncc1701e

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@Alvaro, by the way, is there a condition in the event code to know if one country is at war with another?

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Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 98

RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air - 2/6/2022 5:16:06 PM

stjeand

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ncc

Yes but not that simple...

For example...

if_Country=4
if_Alliance=Allies

That proves that the USSR is at war and part of the Allies.

if_Alliance=Neutral would mean they are at peace.

And of course there is Axis.

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 99

RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air - 2/6/2022 10:12:01 PM

ncc1701e

Posts: 7380
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Thanks, in fact, I can't see how to trigger an event by flag few turns after.

For example, USSR at war is flag=1

Then, if_Flag=1 and if_Date=??? to fire the event 4 game turns after flag=1 has fired.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to stjeand)

Post #: 100

RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air - 2/6/2022 10:48:45 PM

stjeand

Posts: 1508
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From: Aurora, NC
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There is no "variable" date...that I know of. So correct. I do not know a way so say...4 turns after the war starts do X.

BUT it could be possible IF...

You set flag = 1...

THEN before this event you say...if flag = 1 set flag to 2.

Before that event if flag = 2 set flag to 3.

Before that 3 to 4

after all these events...IF flag = 4 do X.

Though it would need to be tested.

Should be easy enough to test with say Denmark?

So Events as follows...

If flag = 3 set flag = 4

if flag = 2 set flag = 3

if flag = 1 set flag = 2

If was set flag = 1

IF flag = 4
Do....

I script all day at work so...I think of crazy stuff all the time.

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 101

RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air - 2/7/2022 7:30:01 AM

CHINCHIN

Posts: 416
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Yes, it would work as Stjeand says. But it would be very laborious, since if we contemplate 5 possible dates, for 11 transferred factories, there would be 55 events, plus the 11 of the new location of the factories.

quote:

ORIGINAL: stjeand
I script all day at work so...I think of crazy stuff all the time.

je,je,je... I also think about very crazy events. For example, to simulate events such as Strategic Command, in which they ask you if you want to perform different operations or not, it occurred to me to simulate this in WP in the following way:

A new country is created, called "Operation Sea Lion", with its capital in a remote and inaccessible place, I think it is necessary for a new country to have a place on the map, and if the axis declares war on this "nation" , the event is triggered that germany receives, for example, 40 landing craft for 100 PP in the same turn. It would also serve to take Norway and Denmark without invading it, or for many more events. It would not be very good to seed the map with strange countries, but it would work.

_____________________________

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(in reply to stjeand)

Post #: 102

RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air - 2/7/2022 3:04:42 PM

AlvaroSousa

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A thought. If you tie factory rail transfers too much to Axis advances you might cause a cascading situation where 1941 basically determines the war with a higher variance skew than it currently is.

As of now my way is fairly simple with a minor shift in production that guarantees the Soviets get their factories and if the Axis adavance fast enough they gain a little production. All without throwing the Russian production out of whack if the Germans advance too fast.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to CHINCHIN)

Post #: 103

RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air - 2/7/2022 9:13:16 PM

ncc1701e

Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
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Perhaps. I was just thinking of the event. Would be great to have something replacing the if_Date=m/d/yyyy.

I would like to suggest a if_Turn=id with id is a number of turn. And it will be used to trigger an event id turns after a flag as fired.

Something like this:

//Germany declares war against USSR
$ChangeTerritory
if_Date=1/1/1939
if_Country=4
if_Alliance=Allies
lifespan=tillTrigger
addReportTo=All
text=Germany declares war against USSR.
flag=1
$End

//USSR moves factories
$GiveResource
if_Turn=5
if_Flag=1
xyControl=233,73,Allies
actionCountry=4
lifespan=tillTrigger
xyArea=237,74,62
addReportTo=All
text=Soviet railed factories come online in the Urals.
$End

This code would mean 5 game turns after flag=1 has fired, trigger this event.

< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 2/7/2022 9:14:55 PM >

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 104

RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air - 2/7/2022 9:19:40 PM

ncc1701e

Posts: 7380
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Back to the initial subject, after playing few Barbarossa with 1.00.15, Russians are not so bad. They are better than in the previous patch.
Overruns are indeed an issue but harassing the Germans in 1941 are now rewarding with the new rail repair rate.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 105

RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air - 2/8/2022 12:24:30 AM

redrum68

Posts: 1202
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

A thought. If you tie factory rail transfers too much to Axis advances you might cause a cascading situation where 1941 basically determines the war with a higher variance skew than it currently is.

As of now my way is fairly simple with a minor shift in production that guarantees the Soviets get their factories and if the Axis adavance fast enough they gain a little production. All without throwing the Russian production out of whack if the Germans advance too fast.

Agree. You generally want USSR to be very resilient so that in most games they survive and eventually can push the Axis back in the later years so more games last til 44/45. If you make more production or factory evacuations near the initial front then if USSR has a bad 1941 then its GG.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 106

RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air - 2/8/2022 12:40:46 AM

aoffen

Posts: 494
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From: Brisvegas, Australia
Status: offline

I think Russia's ability to counter attack in winter needs some attention. I agree in 41, they are looking ok, particularly if overruns are fixed. But they have no real ability to hurt the Germans in Winter turns. At the moment Summer '42, basically just kicks off where Summer '41 ended.

I don't know the solution, but having played 2 Winters under this patch (1 as Germans, 1 as Russians) there was no Russian threat in the winter all - I couldn't even hurt the Rumanians.

Some suggestions -
all Siberians come with Winter speciality pre loaded
A generic winter combat bonus for all winterised troops

Separate question - are rivers being frozen in Winter in Russia? In the south I still got the river symbol and my guys get halved. Does it work in the Arctic zone?

(in reply to redrum68)

Post #: 107

RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air - 2/8/2022 1:01:12 AM

Nirosi

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quote:

are rivers being frozen in Winter in Russia

Only in blizzard, but not in snow I think.

(in reply to aoffen)

Post #: 108

RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air - 2/8/2022 9:13:53 AM

CHINCHIN

Posts: 416
Joined: 9/2/2012
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Yes, it is necessary to calculate very well the evacuation of factories, so that they do not have a large amount of PP in transit, and therefore without being able to use it.

The problem of the Russian winter is that despite the fact that a few turns of snow pass, in which the German units lose effectiveness, and the Russians do not. The penalty for attacking in bad weather makes up for this greatly.

Either way, you have to attack. I wait for a few turns of snow to pass, and I attack as much as I can, I reserve the air force until then, and I use it to support the attacks, since the German fighters no longer have that much superiority.

< Message edited by CHINCHIN -- 2/8/2022 9:14:58 AM >

_____________________________

My native language is Spanish, and no English language mastery, sorry.

(in reply to Nirosi)

Post #: 109

RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air - 2/8/2022 8:25:57 PM

ncc1701e

Posts: 7380
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From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
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quote:

ORIGINAL: aoffen

Some suggestions -
all Siberians come with Winter speciality pre loaded

Is it really useful? In our game, I have saved points to put winter specialization for the four Siberian corps.
Did you notice a difference during their counter-attack?

Did you even notice I was counter-attacking?

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to aoffen)

Post #: 110

RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air - 2/8/2022 9:35:31 PM

aoffen

Posts: 494
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From: Brisvegas, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

quote:

ORIGINAL: aoffen

Some suggestions -
all Siberians come with Winter speciality pre loaded

Is it really useful? In our game, I have saved points to put winter specialization for the four Siberian corps.
Did you notice a difference during their counter-attack?

Did you even notice I was counter-attacking?

LOL. I did notice. I moved reserves to the area just in case. But you�re right. It was a non event

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 111

RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air - 2/8/2022 9:36:51 PM

aoffen

Posts: 494
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From: Brisvegas, Australia
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I guess we should ask Alvaro.

Do you think Russia�s inability to launch a significant winter offensive is an issue?

(in reply to aoffen)

Post #: 112

RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air - 2/9/2022 11:46:01 AM

stjeand

Posts: 1508
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From: Aurora, NC
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41 is to early for the Russians to do anything...
The German supplies are fine by winter...and if their units reach the winter with near full efficiency you are not able to do anything due to the armor moving so slowly.

You basically have to harass German units that are not near rail lines, that way their efficiency is lower and does not return fast enough.

(in reply to aoffen)

Post #: 113

RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air - 2/10/2022 6:19:19 PM

ncc1701e

Posts: 7380
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quote:

ORIGINAL: stjeand

I maxed lend least to the Russians...but ran out of manpower. They basically had 42% at the start of the Spring of 42...I could not longer build units. Only received 22 MP per turn...and the Russian units cost 36...

April 24, 1942, my manpower for USSR is at 763 - 54%. I am getting 29 MP per turn.
Are you disband units to recreate new ones?

Buying one Infantry Army at 36 MP, I am down to 727 - 51%. Despite having enough PP to buy a second one, manpower is limiting the Red Army. And just to add, I have plenty of units that are not a full strength.

< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 2/10/2022 6:31:34 PM >

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to stjeand)

Post #: 114

RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air - 2/10/2022 7:05:10 PM

ncc1701e

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

It already takes me considerable time to update all the scenarios in WPE. The changes have to be small or it can completely throw off the balance.

I have changed the overrun rule as I noticed something was off. I added an addition condition of the unit being 1/3rd strength or less. If it gets an overrun result AND is over 1/3rd strength it instead retreats. This should really help the Russians. I also managed to change the reinforce button to no reinforce/reinforce/reinforce+upgrade which also should help balancing the entire game from start to end.

The dynamics of the game were that Russia gets killed early, and if they survive Germany gets kill in 1944 usually. It needs to be balanced to where the game goes to 1945.

Since an unit overrun is disappearing, it does not consume manpower for repair. What I foresee by this new rule is more fighting, more damage to existing units and a need for more manpower to repair them.

USSR will be short of manpower earlier in theory.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 115

RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air - 2/10/2022 8:34:20 PM

ncc1701e

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I have done a quick research on the net.

British army
By the end of 1939 the British Army's size had risen to 1.1 million men. By June 1940 it stood at 1.65 million men and had further increased to 2.2 million men by June 1941. The size of the British Army peaked in June 1945, at 2.9 million men. By the end of the Second World War some three million people had served.

In the game, I never have manpower issue with UK.

US army
U.S. involvement in WWII grew to be about 16,000,000 military personnel by the war's end: approximately 11,200,000 in the Army, 4,200,000 in the Navy, and 660,000 in the Marine Corps. So, let's say 11,000,000 men since WPE is focused on Europe.

In the game, I never have manpower issue with USA.

USSR army
The Red Army had about 4.8 million soldiers in total. This was in 1941, the Germans and their satellites had about 5.5 million troops. By 1945 the Soviets mobilized over 29.5 million soldiers, not counting the initial state.

So I don't understand why USSR has manpower issue in the game early 1942. It should be more in 1944 with all losses taken.
Alvaro, do you agree with above numbers? Is it what is in the code?

For example, firing Europe 1939 scenario, the first turn, USSR receives 47 MP per turn. And now in my game, April 24, 1942, I am receiving 29 MP per turn.

How do you explain such a drop in Manpower Point (MP) per turn between 1939 and 1942?

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 116

RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air - 2/10/2022 8:46:46 PM

canuckgamer

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The update can't come soon enough. Last turn in our PBEM the Russians had two corps overrun at 6-1 odds. One had 20 SP left while the other had 25 left so it was at 83.3% of it's full strength. We are in June 42 and we have yet to see a shattered result for either side.

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 117

RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air - 2/10/2022 8:47:16 PM

AlvaroSousa

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They lost a lot of population is in the Western part of the country.

They lose it when Germany goes to war and takes PP/MP cities from them.

They killed ~20-25m civilians throughout the war.

I have played plenty of games against a better player and I only have MP issues late in the game as I should.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 118

RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air - 2/10/2022 9:56:51 PM

michaelCLARADY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

I don't know so far. I surely failed my German attack. The rifle corps in garrison mode are super hard in my game. Don't know the secret of my opponent.

Me, as Russian, I can just fallback.

The garrison mode gambit is so very Russian- position the unit and take away it's transport. Stand your ground or die. I wager those units have been locked against withdrawing also.

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 119

RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air - 2/11/2022 3:30:23 AM

aoffen

Posts: 494
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From: Brisvegas, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

April 24, 1942, my manpower for USSR is at 763 - 54%. I am getting 29 MP per turn.
Are you disband units to recreate new ones?

Buying one Infantry Army at 36 MP, I am down to 727 - 51%. Despite having enough PP to buy a second one, manpower is limiting the Red Army. And just to add, I have plenty of units that are not a full strength.

My observation would be very heavy casualties in Russian counterattacks, lots of units overrun or cut off and killed, lots of cities lost. I can�t see my manpower as the turn is with you, but I don�t think I have any issues. I have spent a lot of money (PP) upgrading units and disbanded a number of the 20% training ones as better units came online. Maybe that tilts the balance.

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 120