Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

My experience in this game is: 1 game as an Axis vs AI (100%) and 1 ongoing game as Axis vs rookie to a wite 2 and Soviets, but he has some experience with other games from this series.

I was enjoying playing vs AI. It was too passive, but overall it was fine.

Now the problem is that humans are smart creatures. And pretty quickly they will figure out the most effect way of doing anything.
This leads to a strategies such as abandoning the South in order to reinforce North and Center.
Also this leads to a huge 5mil + Red Army already in a first winter, as Axis can not create any pockets, except of the initial one.

There are also issues with armament/heavy industry/resources factories. Soviet player can give them for free. Not even bother clicking evacuate as they have plenty of this resources in the pool and face no deficit at all.
One more reason not to defend in the South where such factories are located.
Factories that produce chassis for airplanes/tanks are important. But the only one in real threat is Kharkov which can be quickly evacuated. Leningrad is also under threat if Axis is able to make a good progress towards it in the first few turns.

Lets talk about logistics.
Soviet logistic system is super overpowered which allows them to use supply priority 4 for a units and don't give a, khm khm, care about it. They can concentrate enormous amount of divisions in a little sector without a problems with supply/ammo.
Also I find it strange that Axis army total freight consumption is way higher than a Soviets one, despite Soviets having more men.
Axis infantry division consumes around 100 ton supplies per turn.
I made a quick test and looks like Soviet divisions is eating only 66 tons, (actually this Soviet division is at 128% TOE) so it consumes more that a usual one.
Maybe vodka is 50% of the ration and is coming for free, I don't know. But it is strange for me.

Initial panzers divisions are just a trash. You can not attack with them, you can not defend with them. But you can flip hexes.
Motorized divisions, even simple one, not SS, are much more better then a tanks, how is it possible?

Soviet players can concentrate enormous amount of tanks with huge TOE that they get in the start and purposely hunt for German panzers divisions, only panzers, not motorized one. As panzers are performing much worse in comparison to motorized one and it is almost impossible to refit panzer division on a front, while motorized division is reffitable.

Check this thread:


Now when we are talking about reinforcements
In `41 it is pretty hard to refit your units if you are the Axis side, but not impossible.
North is a sector that has no problems with a supply. Especially if you manage to take Leningrad, then you can refit your units even during a blizzard.
Center is not so good. And you need to move your units back or use super depots.
South is a disaster in terms of logistics and without a super depot you can forget about anything more then 1k, 2k of freight.
In March or April `42 situations gets better, but overall freight distribution is still the same. No problems in a North, Center is ok, South is pretty bad.
Yet to see AAR where Stalingrad is under serious threat. I think it is due to a poor logistic there, but might be wrong.

Over all I have some questions to Axis logistics but it is acceptable. Soviet one is super strong.

Would I play as an Axis vs AI - yes.
Would I play vs Soviet player. If he tries to play historically, without running ASAP - yes. Versus a running one - no way. There is no sense.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

But as xoel said, it is great game, and with every patch it is getting better and better. One of my favorite games.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gazzas

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

But as xoel said, it is great game, and with every patch it is getting better and better. One of my favorite games.

So when is the patch coming where replacements reach the front and the Panzer Divs of 1941 returned to the swords they really were?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

I was surprised by myself. But I think there are few things to consider. On a paper t34 and obviously KV is much better than a German tanks.
But IRL there was no ammo/fuel/replacements. People had not enough training on this new machines. Also there was a chaos.
But in a game Soviet player does not have to deal with it.

No problems with ammo/fuel. No chaos. He can concentrate huge tank forces.

And during a battle there is no chance that panzers can survive such an attack. So a lot of panzers are destroyed and many more are left on a battlefield during retreat (it is actually very nice that we have such a mechanic in a game, really like it!)

So I can understand why panzers are suffering such losses in a battles with Soviet tanks, but it the same time I do not understand how motorized divisions can be better than a panzers?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

Replacement can reach a front, but without super depot in a center,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

My experience in this game is: 1 game as an Axis vs AI (100%) and 1 ongoing game as Axis vs rookie to a wite 2 and Soviets, but he has some experience with other games from this series.

I was enjoying playing vs AI. It was too passive, but overall it was fine.

Now the problem is that humans are smart creatures. And pretty quickly they will figure out the most effect way of doing anything.
This leads to a strategies such as abandoning the South in order to reinforce North and Center.
Also this leads to a huge 5mil + Red Army already in a first winter, as Axis can not create any pockets, except of the initial one.

There are also issues with armament/heavy industry/resources factories. Soviet player can give them for free. Not even bother clicking evacuate as they have plenty of this resources in the pool and face no deficit at all.
One more reason not to defend in the South where such factories are located.
Factories that produce chassis for airplanes/tanks are important. But the only one in real threat is Kharkov which can be quickly evacuated. Leningrad is also under threat if Axis is able to make a good progress towards it in the first few turns.

Lets talk about logistics.
Soviet logistic system is super overpowered which allows them to use supply priority 4 for a units and don't give a, khm khm, care about it. They can concentrate enormous amount of divisions in a little sector without a problems with supply/ammo.
Also I find it strange that Axis army total freight consumption is way higher than a Soviets one, despite Soviets having more men.
Axis infantry division consumes around 100 ton supplies per turn.
I made a quick test and looks like Soviet divisions is eating only 66 tons, (actually this Soviet division is at 128% TOE) so it consumes more that a usual one.
Maybe vodka is 50% of the ration and is coming for free, I don't know. But it is strange for me.

Initial panzers divisions are just a trash. You can not attack with them, you can not defend with them. But you can flip hexes.
Motorized divisions, even simple one, not SS, are much more better then a tanks, how is it possible?

Soviet players can concentrate enormous amount of tanks with huge TOE that they get in the start and purposely hunt for German panzers divisions, only panzers, not motorized one. As panzers are performing much worse in comparison to motorized one and it is almost impossible to refit panzer division on a front, while motorized division is reffitable.

Check this thread:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5135309

Now when we are talking about reinforcements
In `41 it is pretty hard to refit your units if you are the Axis side, but not impossible.
North is a sector that has no problems with a supply. Especially if you manage to take Leningrad, then you can refit your units even during a blizzard.
Center is not so good. And you need to move your units back or use super depots.
South is a disaster in terms of logistics and without a super depot you can forget about anything more then 1k, 2k of freight.
In March or April `42 situations gets better, but overall freight distribution is still the same. No problems in a North, Center is ok, South is pretty bad.
Yet to see AAR where Stalingrad is under serious threat. I think it is due to a poor logistic there, but might be wrong.

Over all I have some questions to Axis logistics but it is acceptable. Soviet one is super strong.

Would I play as an Axis vs AI - yes.
Would I play vs Soviet player. If he tries to play historically, without running ASAP - yes. Versus a running one - no way. There is no sense.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikel

So it is a question of armor in early panzers or of firepower of early light russian tanks, or perhaps both.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikel
Have the developers answered to those issues in the sense: nope, this is WAD, or the contrary, the game still needs balancing?

quote:

ORIGINAL: actrade

If played correctly, I have no issues with AFV losses, especially pre-winter 1941. The truth of the matter is that in 1941, German panzers in today's terms would have filled the role of armored cavalry more than MBTs. Remember, most German infantry and supply was still largely on foot/horse drawn so the job of the panzers was encirclement until the infantry arrived and could crush the encircled units. I think the Combat Prep Points system mirrors this very, very well. It is the first WW2 game where I've had to really stop and think "do I really need/want to move this unit" as prior games I used my panzers to run roughshod with no thought to the real world issue that simply moving them is going to lead to attrition/breakdowns and fuel/logistics options. With this in mind, I rarely use my panzers to attack and if I do, it is always as part of a larger force that includes infantry. Violate this principal and you'll see 10-20% losses in a single engagement, something that is difficult to replace and bounce back from.

quote:

If you are going to then I would propose to replace on map Panzer divisions with motorized units which TOE is going to upgrade to a panzer division in May `42 or whenever it is happening. In that way we can avoid useless tanks in `41. And it `42 it is a little bit better.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikel

So it is a question of armor in early panzers or of firepower of early light russian tanks, or perhaps both.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

"Still too wrong to waste time and money on."
Disagree. This is the only game that I am playing for multiple months due to a limited free time.

"Just more places to mess up in a game that already had a front so long that it still took an hour to do a PBEM turn."
One hour only? It takes 3-4 hours for me!