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Ship Upgrades? - 2/12/2022 9:56:47 PM   
abulbulian


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I'm wondering why some of my CS ships are not upgrading. They are in a port with a large ship building cap, have upgrade on for the ship and the upgrade date is 2 months prior to the current date. What am I missing?

Also, the port (in Japan) has plenty of each resource type.

thanks

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RE: Ship Upgrades? - 2/12/2022 10:00:07 PM   
Admiral DadMan


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Japan has to use specific ports for that. If no one else answers, I'll dig it out when I get home.

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RE: Ship Upgrades? - 2/12/2022 10:30:01 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


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"Upgrade" means changing the weapons carried without changing the basic ship type and its characteristics. They usually have a minimum size (repair) shipyard requirement which is shown on the ship's detail window and the base must have enough supplies.

Not to be confused with "conversion" which usually means changing the ship type - for example CS Chitose and Chiyoda converting to CVL. There are also minimum (repair) shipyard size and supply requirements to observe, shown on
the ship details page. Usually any port fitting the requirements will do, except for said Chitose and Chiyoda - their conversion must take place at Tokyo.

To add confusion, some "upgrades" do actually include a conversion - if it is the case, it is indicated in the upgrade option.

< Message edited by LargeSlowTarget -- 2/12/2022 10:31:15 PM >


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RE: Ship Upgrades? - 2/12/2022 11:11:33 PM   
dr.hal


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I believe Jap CSs when converting to CVLs must do so at Tokyo and must have a certain shipyard size which I believe means Tokyo needs to be expanded a bit. Also it can only be done after a certain date. I'll double check with the manual.

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RE: Ship Upgrades? - 2/12/2022 11:44:39 PM   
Mike Solli


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Yep, CS conversion to CVL must be in Tokyo and Tokyo's shipyard must be a minimum size of 50.

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RE: Ship Upgrades? - 2/13/2022 2:41:59 PM   
Q-Ball


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Yep, CS conversion to CVL must be in Tokyo and Tokyo's shipyard must be a minimum size of 50.


My last game as Japan that got that far, which was DDB-C Scen 28, I converted CS to CVL in Osaka, without expanding any shipyard.

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RE: Ship Upgrades? - 2/13/2022 3:51:59 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Yep, CS conversion to CVL must be in Tokyo and Tokyo's shipyard must be a minimum size of 50.


My last game as Japan that got that far, which was DDB-C Scen 28, I converted CS to CVL in Osaka, without expanding any shipyard.

IIRC, you can do that with CS Mizuho, but not Chitose or Chiyoda.

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RE: Ship Upgrades? - 2/13/2022 4:19:22 PM   
Q-Ball


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Yep, CS conversion to CVL must be in Tokyo and Tokyo's shipyard must be a minimum size of 50.


My last game as Japan that got that far, which was DDB-C Scen 28, I converted CS to CVL in Osaka, without expanding any shipyard.

IIRC, you can do that with CS Mizuho, but not Chitose or Chiyoda.


I just opened up an old turn from 7/43. I have NISSHIN, CHIYODA, and CHITOSE all upgrading to CVL in Kobe. I can post photo if you like, but based on my experience you do NOT have to make this conversion in Tokyo.

Maybe Kobe is also a "National Base"?

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RE: Ship Upgrades? - 2/13/2022 5:27:29 PM   
Mike Solli


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Interesting, Q-Ball. There's no need to post anything. I checked the rule book and there was no mention of the Tokyo requirement for CS to CVL conversions. Maybe a vestige of the old WitP? Maybe a patch change? No clue.

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RE: Ship Upgrades? - 2/13/2022 6:07:14 PM   
Q-Ball


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Interesting, Q-Ball. There's no need to post anything. I checked the rule book and there was no mention of the Tokyo requirement for CS to CVL conversions. Maybe a vestige of the old WitP? Maybe a patch change? No clue.


Maybe it was an old rule, but Japanese players can save the shipyard expansion in Tokyo...it's not needed

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RE: Ship Upgrades? - 2/13/2022 6:21:13 PM   
Mike Solli


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Interesting, Q-Ball. There's no need to post anything. I checked the rule book and there was no mention of the Tokyo requirement for CS to CVL conversions. Maybe a vestige of the old WitP? Maybe a patch change? No clue.


Maybe it was an old rule, but Japanese players can save the shipyard expansion in Tokyo...it's not needed


Yep, I may just turn it off in my game. Wasted supply.

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RE: Ship Upgrades? - 2/13/2022 6:56:20 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


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I just made a test with Scen 1, changing the start date to Dec 7 1943 and setting Chitose to be in port at Tokyo, Chiyoda starts in port at Hiroshima, both to upgrade on 11/1942 to CVL, then saving as Scen 51.

Running one turn, only Chitose at Tokyo entered the upgrade, Chiyoda at Hiroshima is still available for duty.

Ran a few more turns, no change. Note that Hiroshima repair yard is 100 and Tokyo is 10.

So it looks like the specific location "Tokyo" is still valid for Chitose and Chiyoda, but the 50 repair yard requirement is no longer valid.

Game version v1.8.11.26b(latest beta).


quote:

Don Bowen -> RE: CS to CVL Conversion Help (1/4/2012 6:14:37 AM)

quote:


ORIGINAL: Puhis

This conversion thing is really silly. Historically they were converted at Yokosuka and Sasebo, and in this game player have to substantially expand Tokyo's small repair yard to make it happen. And there's no way new player can know that some of the conversions are hard coded...


As I recall, this particular limitation was put in late in the development cycle as a plug for a cheat that was showing up in games. The limitation is:

Any conversion that changes the type of a ship TO a capital ship FROM a non-capital ship must be done in the national home port. Capital ship means carriers and battleships.

The cheat was to perform such conversions at remote outposts, where facilities for such a complex conversion would obviously not be available. Also some older WITP games had laughable conversions (like AK to CV) that we wanted to restrict. We had originally thought that the shipyard size limitation was sufficent to control such conversions but there was apparently some remaining issue (don't recall exactly what) that led to this decision. Might have been scenario mods that increased shipyard capacity at some locations.

The underlying assumption was that the facilites would only be available in the homeland and at a major building/repair site. Note that the AE dvelopment team went to great lengths to NOT use literals for bases (or other things) unless absolutely necessary, so the only reasonable choice was a national home port.

Unfortunately the decision and change were made after the manual was "frozen". We weren't all that concerned as the only two historical conversions that would be affected were Chitose and Chiyoda.

Anyway, that's why. Don't think it is going to change now, so I'd recommend adapting to it.



< Message edited by LargeSlowTarget -- 2/13/2022 7:07:00 PM >


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RE: Ship Upgrades? - 2/13/2022 7:18:31 PM   
Q-Ball


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To LST, I thought that as well, but I definitely coverted CHITOSE, CHIYODA, and NISSHIN at Kobe, not Tokyo.

I bet Kobe is also considered a National Port, which is why it works there.

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RE: Ship Upgrades? - 2/14/2022 3:38:11 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

To LST, I thought that as well, but I definitely coverted CHITOSE, CHIYODA, and NISSHIN at Kobe, not Tokyo.

I bet Kobe is also considered a National Port, which is why it works there.

Are you by any chance playing a mod?

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RE: Ship Upgrades? - 2/14/2022 7:24:16 AM   
LargeSlowTarget


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Well Q-Ball, I just made another test with Chitose switched to Kobe - no joy, both Chitose at Kobe and Chiyoda at Hiroshima do not enter the yards for their 11/42 upgrade which converts them to CVL.

You talk about a "conversion" - in stock scenario 1, only Nisshin and Mizuho convert to CVL, Chitose and Chiyoda have an upgrade that changes them into CVL. Can you please verify the scenario you are playing?

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RE: Ship Upgrades? - 2/14/2022 10:47:40 AM   
jdsrae


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This is from scenario 1.
The 1 Nov 42 CS to CVL upgrade for the Chitose class needs Tokyo to have a size 50 repair shipyard.

Another tip, if the air group is on the ship it will auto convert to 1x F and 1x TB unit.
I assume if they are on land they will stay as 2x FP units.




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< Message edited by jdsrae -- 2/14/2022 10:49:23 AM >


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RE: Ship Upgrades? - 2/14/2022 12:47:25 PM   
Q-Ball


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Well Q-Ball, I just made another test with Chitose switched to Kobe - no joy, both Chitose at Kobe and Chiyoda at Hiroshima do not enter the yards for their 11/42 upgrade which converts them to CVL.

You talk about a "conversion" - in stock scenario 1, only Nisshin and Mizuho convert to CVL, Chitose and Chiyoda have an upgrade that changes them into CVL. Can you please verify the scenario you are playing?


I am playing DDB-C, Scenario 28, so there could be a difference between those files and Stock 1 with regard to those ships. In fact, sounds like there has to be if both of you in Scen 1 have to convert in Tokyo. Interesting....

< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 2/14/2022 12:48:07 PM >


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RE: Ship Upgrades? - 2/14/2022 2:11:23 PM   
Mike Solli


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jdsrae

Another tip, if the air group is on the ship it will auto convert to 1x F and 1x TB unit.
I assume if they are on land they will stay as 2x FP units.



That is a correct assumption. I made that mistake in my old PBEM and never got the F or TB unit for the CVLs. I did get to keep the FP units.

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RE: Ship Upgrades? - 2/14/2022 2:12:23 PM   
Mike Solli


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Well Q-Ball, I just made another test with Chitose switched to Kobe - no joy, both Chitose at Kobe and Chiyoda at Hiroshima do not enter the yards for their 11/42 upgrade which converts them to CVL.

You talk about a "conversion" - in stock scenario 1, only Nisshin and Mizuho convert to CVL, Chitose and Chiyoda have an upgrade that changes them into CVL. Can you please verify the scenario you are playing?


I am playing DDB-C, Scenario 28, so there could be a difference between those files and Stock 1 with regard to those ships. In fact, sounds like there has to be if both of you in Scen 1 have to convert in Tokyo. Interesting....


Ahh. I'll let you know when we get to that point in our game.

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RE: Ship Upgrades? - 2/14/2022 2:17:09 PM   
Q-Ball


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jdsrae

Another tip, if the air group is on the ship it will auto convert to 1x F and 1x TB unit.
I assume if they are on land they will stay as 2x FP units.



THIS I did not know! Good to know! The Empire doesn't need more floatplane units (though I use alot to cover every patch of water I can...)

Do they convert immediately? If so, you can actually take them off the ships and use them right away (or at least have plenty of time to train the pilots up)

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RE: Ship Upgrades? - 2/14/2022 3:29:30 PM   
Hano

 

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Is there a list of conversion options around, it would be really useful to have an excel doc that you could search for example to find what ships were capable of converting to AKV and when?

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RE: Ship Upgrades? - 2/14/2022 5:40:47 PM   
abulbulian


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Thanks for the advice. All I can add is that my CS type Jap ships did not start the upgrade process until I moved them to the Tokyo port. Is there a specific part in the docs that mention which ships need to go to Tokyo for upgrades? Wondering now if the Jap BBs that can convert to hybrid CVLs have to upgrade at Tokyo too?

FYI, I'm on version 1.8.11.26b

< Message edited by abulbulian -- 2/14/2022 5:41:31 PM >


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RE: Ship Upgrades? - 2/14/2022 8:18:55 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

Thanks for the advice. All I can add is that my CS type Jap ships did not start the upgrade process until I moved them to the Tokyo port. Is there a specific part in the docs that mention which ships need to go to Tokyo for upgrades? Wondering now if the Jap BBs that can convert to hybrid CVLs have to upgrade at Tokyo too?

FYI, I'm on version 1.8.11.26b

Read post 12 above where LST has quoted developer Don Bowen - the decision was set after the manual was already in publication. Revelation of the Tokyo only requirement (in stock) for Chitose and Chiyoda came in the forum when players first ran into the issue. Just go with it.

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RE: Ship Upgrades? - 2/14/2022 8:23:46 PM   
Skyros


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I made this a while back.




Attachment (1)

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RE: Ship Upgrades? - 2/14/2022 8:28:04 PM   
btd64


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Looks like a helpful chart....GP

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RE: Ship Upgrades? - 2/14/2022 10:29:10 PM   
jdsrae


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quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

Wondering now if the Jap BBs that can convert to hybrid CVLs have to upgrade at Tokyo too?



I am pretty sure I did the BB bastardisations in Kure, so the only ones I am aware of that need Tokyo are the 2x Chitose class.
I did uncover what is probably a database error with either the Ise or Fuso class.
One of them has an “upgrade” option before the “conversion” option that actually has a 0 day delay, but ends up with the same converted ship.
I’ll try to find a screenshot to explain this better later.

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RE: Ship Upgrades? - 2/15/2022 3:10:00 AM   
Tanaka


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https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3819690

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The metamorphosis of the Japanese CS into CVLs is a regular issue raised. It has been answered many times before. Krigan on 28 January 2012 over in the War Room gave a good summary. Symon, on innumerable occasions (see in particular this thread http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2834896&mpage=1&key=ship%2Cconversion�) has explained the difference between "conversion" and "upgrade" which is a fundamental concept relevant to this metamorphosis. Both Symon and Don Bowen have on innumerable occasions explained why the National Base (= Tokyo) was chosen to prevent a cheat which became obvious in testing AE. This cheat involved undertaking upgrades of non capital ships to capital ships in most inappropriate locations.

Even though it is probably a futile attempt, here is the consolidated list of factors which Japanese players need to take into account if they want to change the Chitose, Chiyoda, Mizuho and Nisshin from non capital CS ships into capital CVLs.

1. People regularly use the terms "upgrade" and "conversion" interchangeably. This is not correct and leads to confusion. The terms have quite separate meanings. Most ship classes have subsequent "upgrade" paths. A few ship classes also have a "conversion" path option. However, these two paths are mutually exclusive. The Mizuho CS class has further upgrades, as a CS, in April 1943 and June 1944. However, if the player elects to change it into a CVL in December 1942, then only the CVL upgrade of July 1944 is available.

2. Ships can "upgrade" along the historical, real world paths which occurred to their ship class. A ship which historically was sunk but is not sunk in the game can be "upgraded" to the same standard which it's sister ships in the same class were historically "upgraded". In some instances, where all ships in the class were sunk before any historical "upgrades" occurred, the scenario designer has provided a realistic upgrade option which is based on what similar ship classes experienced. The various Mizuho upgrades referred to in point 1 above is a case in point of realistic upgrades made available by the scenario designer.

3. Unlike "upgrades", ship "conversions" are ahistorical options, albeit intended to be as realistic as possible. To put this into context, both the Mizuho and Nisshin have the option to "convert" in December 1942 into CVLs but historically neither did become a CVL because they were sunk before the "conversion" could occur. Nonetheless, as the Japanese ship building response to Midway envisaged their possible conversion, so the player is provided with the option. On the other hand, both the Chitose and Chiyoda have the historical option in November 1942 to "upgrade" to CVLs.

4. What causes players great confusion is that whilst normally a ship "upgrade" can occur at any port which meets the specific upgrading conditions, this does not appear to apply to the Chitose and Chiyoda November 1942 "upgrades". The reason why this is so is due to the previously alluded cheat. Accordingly, because the Chitose and Chiyoda becoming CVLs constitutes an "upgrade" from a non capital ship class to a capital ship class, the "upgrade" must occur at the National Base which is Tokyo. Contrast this with the Mizuho and Nisshin who undertake only a "conversion" in changing from a non capital ship class to a capital ship class and therefore the need to be in Tokyo does not apply.

5. The conditions for the change are therefore as follows.

(a) Chitose and Chiyoda

  • must be disbanded in Tokyo
  • the ship conversion toggle must be set to "yes". Note that whilst it is technically an "upgrade" in code terms, it is the "conversion" toggle which is used to shift the ship into the capital ship pathway
  • Tokyo must have a "Repair Shipyard" sized 50. In some scenarios the Tokyo Repair Shipyard starts at size 10 only and must be increased in size to level 50 before November 1942.
  • the Tokyo Naval Shipyard and Merchant Shipyard do not substitute for the Tokyo Repair Shipyard. Only the Tokyo Repair Shipyard counts
  • the option becomes available on 1 November 1942

(b) Mizuho and Nisshin

  • can be disbanded in any port with a suitably sized Repair Shipyard
  • the ship conversion toggle must be set to "yes"
  • the Repair Shipyard must be a level 25 size. Again, do not substitute either a Naval Shipyard or Merchant Shipyard.
  • the option becomes available on 1 December 1942


6. Effects of the change

  • all four ships will be offline for 300 days
  • the four new CVLs have a 30 aircraft carrying capacity
  • if the original organic floatplane air units are left on board the Chitose and Chiyoda at the moment the "upgrade" occurs, they automatically convert into a 21 plane carrier fighter unit and a 9 carrier capable torpedo bomber unit on each CVL
  • as CVLs both the Chitose and Chiyoda have a maximum of 27 torpedo sorties
  • the original organic floatplane air units, if left on the Mizuho and Nisshin at the moment of their "conversion", do not convert into carrier fighters and torpedo bombers but remain as floatplanes
  • As CVLs, neither the Mizuho nor the Nisshin have any torpedo sorties
  • in some scenarios, the Mizuho gain san extra 2 knots in speed as a CVL

7. Finally, the Japanese player needs to carefully evaluate whether the change into capital ships is worth the effort.

Alfred


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RE: Ship Upgrades? - 2/15/2022 5:54:21 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hano

Is there a list of conversion options around, it would be really useful to have an excel doc that you could search for example to find what ships were capable of converting to AKV and when?



Use tracker.

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RE: Ship Upgrades? - 2/15/2022 1:40:29 PM   
Ian R

 

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How bizarre to see you adopting Alfred's posts to answer questions, after you so smugly celebrated his banning.

You really are shameless.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3819690

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The metamorphosis of the Japanese CS into CVLs is a regular issue raised. It has been answered many times before. Krigan on 28 January 2012 over in the War Room gave a good summary. Symon, on innumerable occasions (see in particular this thread http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2834896&mpage=1&key=ship%2Cconversion�) has explained the difference between "conversion" and "upgrade" which is a fundamental concept relevant to this metamorphosis. Both Symon and Don Bowen have on innumerable occasions explained why the National Base (= Tokyo) was chosen to prevent a cheat which became obvious in testing AE. This cheat involved undertaking upgrades of non capital ships to capital ships in most inappropriate locations.

Even though it is probably a futile attempt, here is the consolidated list of factors which Japanese players need to take into account if they want to change the Chitose, Chiyoda, Mizuho and Nisshin from non capital CS ships into capital CVLs.

1. People regularly use the terms "upgrade" and "conversion" interchangeably. This is not correct and leads to confusion. The terms have quite separate meanings. Most ship classes have subsequent "upgrade" paths. A few ship classes also have a "conversion" path option. However, these two paths are mutually exclusive. The Mizuho CS class has further upgrades, as a CS, in April 1943 and June 1944. However, if the player elects to change it into a CVL in December 1942, then only the CVL upgrade of July 1944 is available.

2. Ships can "upgrade" along the historical, real world paths which occurred to their ship class. A ship which historically was sunk but is not sunk in the game can be "upgraded" to the same standard which it's sister ships in the same class were historically "upgraded". In some instances, where all ships in the class were sunk before any historical "upgrades" occurred, the scenario designer has provided a realistic upgrade option which is based on what similar ship classes experienced. The various Mizuho upgrades referred to in point 1 above is a case in point of realistic upgrades made available by the scenario designer.

3. Unlike "upgrades", ship "conversions" are ahistorical options, albeit intended to be as realistic as possible. To put this into context, both the Mizuho and Nisshin have the option to "convert" in December 1942 into CVLs but historically neither did become a CVL because they were sunk before the "conversion" could occur. Nonetheless, as the Japanese ship building response to Midway envisaged their possible conversion, so the player is provided with the option. On the other hand, both the Chitose and Chiyoda have the historical option in November 1942 to "upgrade" to CVLs.

4. What causes players great confusion is that whilst normally a ship "upgrade" can occur at any port which meets the specific upgrading conditions, this does not appear to apply to the Chitose and Chiyoda November 1942 "upgrades". The reason why this is so is due to the previously alluded cheat. Accordingly, because the Chitose and Chiyoda becoming CVLs constitutes an "upgrade" from a non capital ship class to a capital ship class, the "upgrade" must occur at the National Base which is Tokyo. Contrast this with the Mizuho and Nisshin who undertake only a "conversion" in changing from a non capital ship class to a capital ship class and therefore the need to be in Tokyo does not apply.

5. The conditions for the change are therefore as follows.

(a) Chitose and Chiyoda

  • must be disbanded in Tokyo
  • the ship conversion toggle must be set to "yes". Note that whilst it is technically an "upgrade" in code terms, it is the "conversion" toggle which is used to shift the ship into the capital ship pathway
  • Tokyo must have a "Repair Shipyard" sized 50. In some scenarios the Tokyo Repair Shipyard starts at size 10 only and must be increased in size to level 50 before November 1942.
  • the Tokyo Naval Shipyard and Merchant Shipyard do not substitute for the Tokyo Repair Shipyard. Only the Tokyo Repair Shipyard counts
  • the option becomes available on 1 November 1942

(b) Mizuho and Nisshin

  • can be disbanded in any port with a suitably sized Repair Shipyard
  • the ship conversion toggle must be set to "yes"
  • the Repair Shipyard must be a level 25 size. Again, do not substitute either a Naval Shipyard or Merchant Shipyard.
  • the option becomes available on 1 December 1942


6. Effects of the change

  • all four ships will be offline for 300 days
  • the four new CVLs have a 30 aircraft carrying capacity
  • if the original organic floatplane air units are left on board the Chitose and Chiyoda at the moment the "upgrade" occurs, they automatically convert into a 21 plane carrier fighter unit and a 9 carrier capable torpedo bomber unit on each CVL
  • as CVLs both the Chitose and Chiyoda have a maximum of 27 torpedo sorties
  • the original organic floatplane air units, if left on the Mizuho and Nisshin at the moment of their "conversion", do not convert into carrier fighters and torpedo bombers but remain as floatplanes
  • As CVLs, neither the Mizuho nor the Nisshin have any torpedo sorties
  • in some scenarios, the Mizuho gain san extra 2 knots in speed as a CVL

7. Finally, the Japanese player needs to carefully evaluate whether the change into capital ships is worth the effort.

Alfred




_____________________________

"I am Alfred"

(in reply to Tanaka)
Post #: 29
RE: Ship Upgrades? - 2/15/2022 9:29:15 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R
How bizarre to see you adopting Alfred's posts to answer questions, after you so smugly celebrated his banning.

You really are shameless.


No one debated Alfred's knowledge, just his behavior. Tanaka didn't ban Alfred - I did. I did that because of Alfred's behavior. I've also banned Tanaka once for his behavior. Alfred earned his ban and then chose not to return. As you know, his ban has since been lifted in the spirit of giving everyone a second chance to adapt to the enforcement of the forum rules.

The forum rules prohibit personal attacks, which is also what you just did above. Consider this an official warning to follow the rules and stop trying to turn a discussion about the game into something personal.

Regards,

- Erik


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Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC




For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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(in reply to Ian R)
Post #: 30
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