Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Yep, CS conversion to CVL must be in Tokyo and Tokyo's shipyard must be a minimum size of 50.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Yep, CS conversion to CVL must be in Tokyo and Tokyo's shipyard must be a minimum size of 50.

My last game as Japan that got that far, which was DDB-C Scen 28, I converted CS to CVL in Osaka, without expanding any shipyard.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Yep, CS conversion to CVL must be in Tokyo and Tokyo's shipyard must be a minimum size of 50.

My last game as Japan that got that far, which was DDB-C Scen 28, I converted CS to CVL in Osaka, without expanding any shipyard.

IIRC, you can do that with CS Mizuho, but not Chitose or Chiyoda.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Interesting, Q-Ball. There's no need to post anything. I checked the rule book and there was no mention of the Tokyo requirement for CS to CVL conversions. Maybe a vestige of the old WitP? Maybe a patch change? No clue.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Interesting, Q-Ball. There's no need to post anything. I checked the rule book and there was no mention of the Tokyo requirement for CS to CVL conversions. Maybe a vestige of the old WitP? Maybe a patch change? No clue.

Maybe it was an old rule, but Japanese players can save the shipyard expansion in Tokyo...it's not needed

Created by the amazing Dixie

quote:

Don Bowen -> RE: CS to CVL Conversion Help (1/4/2012 6:14:37 AM)

quote:


ORIGINAL: Puhis

This conversion thing is really silly. Historically they were converted at Yokosuka and Sasebo, and in this game player have to substantially expand Tokyo's small repair yard to make it happen. And there's no way new player can know that some of the conversions are hard coded...

As I recall, this particular limitation was put in late in the development cycle as a plug for a cheat that was showing up in games. The limitation is:

Any conversion that changes the type of a ship TO a capital ship FROM a non-capital ship must be done in the national home port. Capital ship means carriers and battleships.

The cheat was to perform such conversions at remote outposts, where facilities for such a complex conversion would obviously not be available. Also some older WITP games had laughable conversions (like AK to CV) that we wanted to restrict. We had originally thought that the shipyard size limitation was sufficent to control such conversions but there was apparently some remaining issue (don't recall exactly what) that led to this decision. Might have been scenario mods that increased shipyard capacity at some locations.

The underlying assumption was that the facilites would only be available in the homeland and at a major building/repair site. Note that the AE dvelopment team went to great lengths to NOT use literals for bases (or other things) unless absolutely necessary, so the only reasonable choice was a national home port.

Unfortunately the decision and change were made after the manual was "frozen". We weren't all that concerned as the only two historical conversions that would be affected were Chitose and Chiyoda.

Anyway, that's why. Don't think it is going to change now, so I'd recommend adapting to it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

To LST, I thought that as well, but I definitely coverted CHITOSE, CHIYODA, and NISSHIN at Kobe, not Tokyo.

I bet Kobe is also considered a National Port, which is why it works there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Well Q-Ball, I just made another test with Chitose switched to Kobe - no joy, both Chitose at Kobe and Chiyoda at Hiroshima do not enter the yards for their 11/42 upgrade which converts them to CVL.

You talk about a "conversion" - in stock scenario 1, only Nisshin and Mizuho convert to CVL, Chitose and Chiyoda have an upgrade that changes them into CVL. Can you please verify the scenario you are playing?

quote:

ORIGINAL: jdsrae

Another tip, if the air group is on the ship it will auto convert to 1x F and 1x TB unit.
I assume if they are on land they will stay as 2x FP units.

Created by the amazing Dixie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Well Q-Ball, I just made another test with Chitose switched to Kobe - no joy, both Chitose at Kobe and Chiyoda at Hiroshima do not enter the yards for their 11/42 upgrade which converts them to CVL.

You talk about a "conversion" - in stock scenario 1, only Nisshin and Mizuho convert to CVL, Chitose and Chiyoda have an upgrade that changes them into CVL. Can you please verify the scenario you are playing?

I am playing DDB-C, Scenario 28, so there could be a difference between those files and Stock 1 with regard to those ships. In fact, sounds like there has to be if both of you in Scen 1 have to convert in Tokyo. Interesting....

Created by the amazing Dixie

quote:

ORIGINAL: jdsrae

Another tip, if the air group is on the ship it will auto convert to 1x F and 1x TB unit.
I assume if they are on land they will stay as 2x FP units.

quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

Thanks for the advice. All I can add is that my CS type Jap ships did not start the upgrade process until I moved them to the Tokyo port. Is there a specific part in the docs that mention which ships need to go to Tokyo for upgrades? Wondering now if the Jap BBs that can convert to hybrid CVLs have to upgrade at Tokyo too?

FYI, I'm on version 1.8.11.26b

quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

Wondering now if the Jap BBs that can convert to hybrid CVLs have to upgrade at Tokyo too?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The metamorphosis of the Japanese CS into CVLs is a regular issue raised. It has been answered many times before. Krigan on 28 January 2012 over in the War Room gave a good summary. Symon, on innumerable occasions (see in particular this thread http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2834896&mpage=1&key=ship%2Cconversion�) has explained the difference between "conversion" and "upgrade" which is a fundamental concept relevant to this metamorphosis. Both Symon and Don Bowen have on innumerable occasions explained why the National Base (= Tokyo) was chosen to prevent a cheat which became obvious in testing AE. This cheat involved undertaking upgrades of non capital ships to capital ships in most inappropriate locations.

Even though it is probably a futile attempt, here is the consolidated list of factors which Japanese players need to take into account if they want to change the Chitose, Chiyoda, Mizuho and Nisshin from non capital CS ships into capital CVLs.

1. People regularly use the terms "upgrade" and "conversion" interchangeably. This is not correct and leads to confusion. The terms have quite separate meanings. Most ship classes have subsequent "upgrade" paths. A few ship classes also have a "conversion" path option. However, these two paths are mutually exclusive. The Mizuho CS class has further upgrades, as a CS, in April 1943 and June 1944. However, if the player elects to change it into a CVL in December 1942, then only the CVL upgrade of July 1944 is available.

2. Ships can "upgrade" along the historical, real world paths which occurred to their ship class. A ship which historically was sunk but is not sunk in the game can be "upgraded" to the same standard which it's sister ships in the same class were historically "upgraded". In some instances, where all ships in the class were sunk before any historical "upgrades" occurred, the scenario designer has provided a realistic upgrade option which is based on what similar ship classes experienced. The various Mizuho upgrades referred to in point 1 above is a case in point of realistic upgrades made available by the scenario designer.

3. Unlike "upgrades", ship "conversions" are ahistorical options, albeit intended to be as realistic as possible. To put this into context, both the Mizuho and Nisshin have the option to "convert" in December 1942 into CVLs but historically neither did become a CVL because they were sunk before the "conversion" could occur. Nonetheless, as the Japanese ship building response to Midway envisaged their possible conversion, so the player is provided with the option. On the other hand, both the Chitose and Chiyoda have the historical option in November 1942 to "upgrade" to CVLs.

4. What causes players great confusion is that whilst normally a ship "upgrade" can occur at any port which meets the specific upgrading conditions, this does not appear to apply to the Chitose and Chiyoda November 1942 "upgrades". The reason why this is so is due to the previously alluded cheat. Accordingly, because the Chitose and Chiyoda becoming CVLs constitutes an "upgrade" from a non capital ship class to a capital ship class, the "upgrade" must occur at the National Base which is Tokyo. Contrast this with the Mizuho and Nisshin who undertake only a "conversion" in changing from a non capital ship class to a capital ship class and therefore the need to be in Tokyo does not apply.

5. The conditions for the change are therefore as follows.

(a) Chitose and Chiyoda

• must be disbanded in Tokyo
  
• the ship conversion toggle must be set to "yes". Note that whilst it is technically an "upgrade" in code terms, it is the "conversion" toggle which is used to shift the ship into the capital ship pathway
  
• Tokyo must have a "Repair Shipyard" sized 50. In some scenarios the Tokyo Repair Shipyard starts at size 10 only and must be increased in size to level 50 before November 1942.
  
• the Tokyo Naval Shipyard and Merchant Shipyard do not substitute for the Tokyo Repair Shipyard. Only the Tokyo Repair Shipyard counts
  
• the option becomes available on 1 November 1942

(b) Mizuho and Nisshin

• can be disbanded in any port with a suitably sized Repair Shipyard
  
• the ship conversion toggle must be set to "yes"
  
• the Repair Shipyard must be a level 25 size. Again, do not substitute either a Naval Shipyard or Merchant Shipyard.
  
• the option becomes available on 1 December 1942

6. Effects of the change

• all four ships will be offline for 300 days
  
• the four new CVLs have a 30 aircraft carrying capacity
  
• if the original organic floatplane air units are left on board the Chitose and Chiyoda at the moment the "upgrade" occurs, they automatically convert into a 21 plane carrier fighter unit and a 9 carrier capable torpedo bomber unit on each CVL
  
• as CVLs both the Chitose and Chiyoda have a maximum of 27 torpedo sorties
  
• the original organic floatplane air units, if left on the Mizuho and Nisshin at the moment of their "conversion", do not convert into carrier fighters and torpedo bombers but remain as floatplanes
  
• As CVLs, neither the Mizuho nor the Nisshin have any torpedo sorties
  
• in some scenarios, the Mizuho gain san extra 2 knots in speed as a CVL

7. Finally, the Japanese player needs to carefully evaluate whether the change into capital ships is worth the effort.

Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hano

Is there a list of conversion options around, it would be really useful to have an excel doc that you could search for example to find what ships were capable of converting to AKV and when?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3819690

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The metamorphosis of the Japanese CS into CVLs is a regular issue raised. It has been answered many times before. Krigan on 28 January 2012 over in the War Room gave a good summary. Symon, on innumerable occasions (see in particular this thread http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2834896&mpage=1&key=ship%2Cconversion�) has explained the difference between "conversion" and "upgrade" which is a fundamental concept relevant to this metamorphosis. Both Symon and Don Bowen have on innumerable occasions explained why the National Base (= Tokyo) was chosen to prevent a cheat which became obvious in testing AE. This cheat involved undertaking upgrades of non capital ships to capital ships in most inappropriate locations.

Even though it is probably a futile attempt, here is the consolidated list of factors which Japanese players need to take into account if they want to change the Chitose, Chiyoda, Mizuho and Nisshin from non capital CS ships into capital CVLs.

1. People regularly use the terms "upgrade" and "conversion" interchangeably. This is not correct and leads to confusion. The terms have quite separate meanings. Most ship classes have subsequent "upgrade" paths. A few ship classes also have a "conversion" path option. However, these two paths are mutually exclusive. The Mizuho CS class has further upgrades, as a CS, in April 1943 and June 1944. However, if the player elects to change it into a CVL in December 1942, then only the CVL upgrade of July 1944 is available.

2. Ships can "upgrade" along the historical, real world paths which occurred to their ship class. A ship which historically was sunk but is not sunk in the game can be "upgraded" to the same standard which it's sister ships in the same class were historically "upgraded". In some instances, where all ships in the class were sunk before any historical "upgrades" occurred, the scenario designer has provided a realistic upgrade option which is based on what similar ship classes experienced. The various Mizuho upgrades referred to in point 1 above is a case in point of realistic upgrades made available by the scenario designer.

3. Unlike "upgrades", ship "conversions" are ahistorical options, albeit intended to be as realistic as possible. To put this into context, both the Mizuho and Nisshin have the option to "convert" in December 1942 into CVLs but historically neither did become a CVL because they were sunk before the "conversion" could occur. Nonetheless, as the Japanese ship building response to Midway envisaged their possible conversion, so the player is provided with the option. On the other hand, both the Chitose and Chiyoda have the historical option in November 1942 to "upgrade" to CVLs.

4. What causes players great confusion is that whilst normally a ship "upgrade" can occur at any port which meets the specific upgrading conditions, this does not appear to apply to the Chitose and Chiyoda November 1942 "upgrades". The reason why this is so is due to the previously alluded cheat. Accordingly, because the Chitose and Chiyoda becoming CVLs constitutes an "upgrade" from a non capital ship class to a capital ship class, the "upgrade" must occur at the National Base which is Tokyo. Contrast this with the Mizuho and Nisshin who undertake only a "conversion" in changing from a non capital ship class to a capital ship class and therefore the need to be in Tokyo does not apply.

5. The conditions for the change are therefore as follows.

(a) Chitose and Chiyoda

• must be disbanded in Tokyo
  
• the ship conversion toggle must be set to "yes". Note that whilst it is technically an "upgrade" in code terms, it is the "conversion" toggle which is used to shift the ship into the capital ship pathway
  
• Tokyo must have a "Repair Shipyard" sized 50. In some scenarios the Tokyo Repair Shipyard starts at size 10 only and must be increased in size to level 50 before November 1942.
  
• the Tokyo Naval Shipyard and Merchant Shipyard do not substitute for the Tokyo Repair Shipyard. Only the Tokyo Repair Shipyard counts
  
• the option becomes available on 1 November 1942

(b) Mizuho and Nisshin

• can be disbanded in any port with a suitably sized Repair Shipyard
  
• the ship conversion toggle must be set to "yes"
  
• the Repair Shipyard must be a level 25 size. Again, do not substitute either a Naval Shipyard or Merchant Shipyard.
  
• the option becomes available on 1 December 1942

6. Effects of the change

• all four ships will be offline for 300 days
  
• the four new CVLs have a 30 aircraft carrying capacity
  
• if the original organic floatplane air units are left on board the Chitose and Chiyoda at the moment the "upgrade" occurs, they automatically convert into a 21 plane carrier fighter unit and a 9 carrier capable torpedo bomber unit on each CVL
  
• as CVLs both the Chitose and Chiyoda have a maximum of 27 torpedo sorties
  
• the original organic floatplane air units, if left on the Mizuho and Nisshin at the moment of their "conversion", do not convert into carrier fighters and torpedo bombers but remain as floatplanes
  
• As CVLs, neither the Mizuho nor the Nisshin have any torpedo sorties
  
• in some scenarios, the Mizuho gain san extra 2 knots in speed as a CVL

7. Finally, the Japanese player needs to carefully evaluate whether the change into capital ships is worth the effort.

Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R
How bizarre to see you adopting Alfred's posts to answer questions, after you so smugly celebrated his banning.

You really are shameless.

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



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