My Bruno (of mine)

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My Bruno (of mine) - 2/14/2022 8:55:10 PM

LN59

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"Mon Bruno � moi" (*)

A friendly linguistic note about the plausibility of a typical military expression.

1� In French, "Bruno" is a first name. In Indochina, the captain (since 1945) then commander (from 1950 to 1953) Marcel BIGEARD (1916-2010) had actually taken it as a radio callsign ("Bruno" = "B" as "Bigeard"). The charisma of the character quickly made it a nickname, immediately transformed into a living legend by the troupe.

2� In the same way, if "Mon" is known as a personal pronoun, since the Renaissance this short and clear word is among French-speaking soldiers the equivalent of "Monsieur", that is to say of "Mon Sieur". The word "Sieur" (from the Latin senior) is today an old term but it corresponds perfectly to the Anglo-Saxon "Sir".
"Mon Capitaine" must therefore be understood as "Mr. Captain". English is more direct and straightforward!

3� This is why the particular expression "My Bruno" - as in the introduction to the excellent scenarios of Di�n Bi�n Phu by David GALSTER(**) - could never be used by his superiors or his subordinates because it was too familiar, rather comical and even equivocal.

So how do you designate "Lt. N-X-T", "Maj. MB" or "Col. dC" in-game? Best to keep it simple!

A choice:
- "Mon" followed by the rank in French or, in the specific case of DBP scenarios, "Bruno, your mission is..." (without "Mon");
- The equivalent rank in English, alone;
- "Sir".

Subsidiary question:
Historical names being abbreviated, is it for a specific reason (a text of law) or out of caution as to the rights holders, or even political correctness?
I happen to have a similar problem elsewhere (a custom scenario to be uploaded) with portraits of contemporary historical figures, all deceased (a Public Domain issue).

LN59

(*) Note that this could very well have been the title of an Edith PIAF song.
You know, this female singer that we hear on a gramophone shortly before the battle of Ramelle in "Saving Private Ryan".
A great Lady of the music hall made internationally famous thanks to her songs "Mon L�gionnaire" and "Je ne regrette rien"...

(**) My warmest thanks to David GALSTER of the CS Legion for the historical nuggets he offers us with the Di�n Bi�n Phu scenarios;

for his booklets (PDF) too that can be found in the 'Additional Resources / CSLegion Vietnam War Blog Posts' directory of the game.

"Quel beau travail il a r�alis� !"

What a great job he has done!

< Message edited by LN59 -- 2/16/2022 12:21:33 AM >

_____________________________

"On ne passe pas !"
The French soldiers' motto (Verdun, 1916)

"One does not pass! The Covid-19 even less."
Years 2020, 2021 motto, 2022 distant memory

Post #: 1

RE: My Bruno (of mine) - 2/14/2022 9:36:11 PM

berto

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From: metro Chicago, Illinois, USA
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This:

quote:

ORIGINAL: LN59

out of caution as to the rights holders

<sigh>

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Post #: 2

RE: My Bruno (of mine) - 2/15/2022 5:43:41 AM

Crossroads

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LN59

So how do you designate "Lt. N-X-T", "Maj. MB" or "Col. dC" in-game? Best to keep it simple!

A choice:
- "Mon" followed by the grade in French or, in the specific case of DBP scenarios, "Bruno, your mission is..." (without the "Mon");
- The equivalent grade in English, alone;
- "Sir".

Thank you, I will address these for the 1.1 UPDATE!

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CS: Vietnam 1948-1967 <-- Jan 20th, 2022! --
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Post #: 3

RE: My Bruno (of mine) - 2/15/2022 6:36:56 AM

Crossroads

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crossroads

quote:

ORIGINAL: LN59

So how do you designate "Lt. N-X-T", "Maj. MB" or "Col. dC" in-game? Best to keep it simple!

A choice:
- "Mon" followed by the grade in French or, in the specific case of DBP scenarios, "Bruno, your mission is..." (without the "Mon");
- The equivalent grade in English, alone;
- "Sir".

Thank you, I will address these for the 1.1 UPDATE!

I reverted to simple "Bruno", as in "Bruno, you are jumping next". How's that?

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Post #: 4

RE: My Bruno (of mine) - 2/15/2022 6:38:10 AM

Crossroads

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... and left the "Mon [rank]" cases in place, for instance "Mon Colonel" and "Mon Capitaine".

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Post #: 5

RE: My Bruno (of mine) - 2/15/2022 2:59:16 PM

LN59

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Joined: 1/28/2016
From: France
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Nothing to complain about, Dear Crossroads! It's perfect.

Sorry to appear to play the role of the "cursed Frenchie who thinks he is above the fray", but as much as I try to respect as best as I can (very imperfectly, I agree) the English language in its infinite subtleties, I really appreciate the attention paid to all the other languages (German, Spanish, Italian and Russian) that I happen to read, or try to understand with traditional or digital tools.

Far be it from me to give lessons to others because, at 67, I'm infinitely happy to be able to learn from You All, every day.
With all my 'transbaltic'(*) and transatlantic friendships!
Lilian

(*) Added Wednesday, 02.16.2022

< Message edited by LN59 -- 2/16/2022 3:29:17 PM >

_____________________________

"On ne passe pas !"
The French soldiers' motto (Verdun, 1916)

"One does not pass! The Covid-19 even less."
Years 2020, 2021 motto, 2022 distant memory

(in reply to Crossroads)

Post #: 6

RE: My Bruno (of mine) - 2/15/2022 3:26:30 PM

Crossroads

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Thank you

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Post #: 7

RE: My Bruno (of mine) - 2/15/2022 5:00:56 PM

berto

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From: metro Chicago, Illinois, USA
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^ Wrote Crossroads, who is not "transatlantic", since he is based in Finland.

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Post #: 8

RE: My Bruno (of mine) - 2/15/2022 6:36:00 PM

Woolybear

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Now I understand the origins of Mon Cul

LPN

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Post #: 9

RE: My Bruno (of mine) - 2/15/2022 7:30:21 PM

Crossroads

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Unfortunately, while I do speak English, Swedish, and some German, I don't speak French. My wide does, but then she's not into wargaming. Even if she would be, she would likely not have spotted the informal reference to Bruno my friend. Agreed, that would be a lovely Edith Piaf song. Maybe it was?

That said, credit to David Galster for his extra attention to "lingo" in mission briefings and event dialogs. Worth a shout are his VM dialogs as well, to give them an authentic ring as well

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Post #: 10

RE: My Bruno (of mine) - 2/15/2022 11:16:06 PM

LN59

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From: France
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Totally agree with you, Crossroads!

David's work is absolutely remarkable and I wanted to complete my previous post as soon as I found his historical articles, as well as your kind observation.

I'm adding an extra thread to encourage our gamer friends to read them.

_____________________________

"On ne passe pas !"
The French soldiers' motto (Verdun, 1916)

"One does not pass! The Covid-19 even less."
Years 2020, 2021 motto, 2022 distant memory

(in reply to Crossroads)

Post #: 11

RE: My Bruno (of mine) - 2/15/2022 11:52:06 PM

LN59

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Joined: 1/28/2016
From: France
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Post Scriptum

Hi Crossroads,

I'm sorry for not knowing that you're living in Finland.

No offense to some hairy (?) & rude character "de Mon c.." (French bashing, very poor as usual

), this doesn't appear in the forum's list of contributors.

As for the song, we can say that it exists since 1936-1937. Here it's with the lyrics (FR+EN): https://songstranslation.com/edith-piaf/mon-legionnaire/

< Message edited by LN59 -- 2/16/2022 12:06:19 AM >

_____________________________

"On ne passe pas !"
The French soldiers' motto (Verdun, 1916)

"One does not pass! The Covid-19 even less."
Years 2020, 2021 motto, 2022 distant memory

(in reply to Crossroads)

Post #: 12

RE: My Bruno (of mine) - 2/16/2022 4:29:18 PM

Woolybear

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LN59

Post Scriptum

No offense to some hairy (?) & rude character "de Mon c.." (French bashing, very poor as usual ), this doesn't appear in the forum's list of contributors.

Rude and hairy - quite possibly on occasion ,mais mon cher to be accused of French bashing on the forum alors l� non! But my wife is French and fortunately being Irish and armed with a large sense of humour I do enjoy teasing here occasionally ..well often. To return to the post, many former soldiers had great difficulty in understanding why 'mon' had to be placed in front of an officer's rank (and not an NCO) it was as bad as learning tu /vous - most of the learning process resulted in us getting bashed physically when trying to explain in poor French 'Mon Lootenant moi pas francophone moi pas compris! - to receive a verbal blast of - Mon C** from the Mister

LPN

(in reply to LN59)

Post #: 13

RE: My Bruno (of mine) - 2/16/2022 5:58:19 PM

Crossroads

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I just had a chat with David about this too, he concluded the Bruno reference should perhaps be Mon Major, so I am doing one more change with the DBP#1 dialogs in Lua files.

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Post #: 14

RE: My Bruno (of mine) - 2/16/2022 7:45:04 PM

LN59

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Joined: 1/28/2016
From: France
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I would rather recommend the term "Mon Commandant" because it is the exact French translation of the rank of Major used in the armies of Anglo-Saxon countries. Administratively, even today, the Senior Officer who commands a battalion is its "Commandant".

This also designated from that time a "Chef de bataillon", the battalion being (it still is today) the largest subdivision of a "R�giment" (regiment). However, he was not addressed by "Mon Chef de bataillon" (or "Mon Major") but simply by "Mon Commandant". Especially during the Colonial Wars, he could be the leader of an independent tactical unit, as with the Paratroopers ("BPC" = "Bataillon de Parachutistes coloniaux"). In France today, the largest Mountain unit remains the "Bataillon de Chasseurs alpins".

Moreover, the term "Major", does exist in the French army and has existed for a long time, but only to designate a specific function or sometimes honorific, therefore a distinction. Thus: a Doctor, as a Senior Officer of the rank of "Commandant" is always called "Major" (capital initial) in our army. There are also non-commissioned officers ("Sous-officiers") and even soldiers ("Hommes du rang" as corporals) who have this term (all lowercase) added to their rank, such as "Sergent-major " or, older, the "Tambour-major" (Chief of the drums and/or musicians) in the regimental bands.

All this may seem complicated and superfluous but is intimately linked to history itself(*), that of ancient units or traditions jealously preserved within our armies by "Esprit de corps" since the Ancien R�gime (before 1789) and more than two centuries of turbulent history. Not really because of a will of narrow-minded conservatism but well by "Esprit de tradition" (Spirit of Tradition). A Question of Honor but also of Respectful Memory of the Elders. What is more honorable in this kind of "conservatism", can we admit whatever our political opinions.

But I would stop there!

(*) Without counting on the problems of translation of our respective sources and history books!

Tradurre � tradire! say our Italian friends.

< Message edited by LN59 -- 2/16/2022 10:14:24 PM >

_____________________________

"On ne passe pas !"
The French soldiers' motto (Verdun, 1916)

"One does not pass! The Covid-19 even less."
Years 2020, 2021 motto, 2022 distant memory

(in reply to Crossroads)