RE: Of Course Not, The Entire Game Is An Anti-German Design [8D]

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RE: Of Course Not, The Entire Game Is An Anti-German Design [8D] - Bread (Axis) vs Beethoven (Soviet)

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East 2 >> After Action Reports >> RE: Of Course Not, The Entire Game Is An Anti-German Design [8D] - Bread (Axis) vs Beethoven (Soviet)

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RE: Of Course Not, The Entire Game Is An Anti-German De... - 2/16/2022 6:02:40 PM

Beethoven1

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OK, so... leader deaths...

This is the army whose leader died. This army was not even on the map at the end of my last turn. It newly deployed just now onto the map. And is commanding 0 troops. A brand new army, not even used yet in a single turn.

And yet, its leader ALREADY died.

I am so glad that I am not using leaders, it would be so annoying having a leader die before I actually even had a chance to move his army at all. I guess it was a stillbirth for that leader or something. As he came into existence, he IMMEDIATELY died.

(in reply to Beethoven1)

Post #: 121

RE: Of Course Not, The Entire Game Is An Anti-German De... - 2/16/2022 6:39:18 PM

Beethoven1

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By the way, here is one of those sorts of battles that I think either Stamb or AlbertN mentioned, regarding CPP loss being the same even when you attack very weak units.

I put out a very weak Naval Infantry brigade in the front. Bread attacked it, and since it was very weak, all it probably needed was a hasty attack from his one infantry division.

But then... Reserve Reaction!!! The 197th Infantry division joined the battle, resulting in a hold! For this reason, it is not really an option to just use proportional force like 1 regiment or a hasty attack even against very weak units. If Axis does this to attack weak airborne/cavalry/etc, these sorts of results will end up happening (and they would happen even more if I had generals with initiative stats for the initiative rolls).

(in reply to Beethoven1)

Post #: 122

RE: Of Course Not, The Entire Game Is An Anti-German De... - 2/16/2022 8:28:24 PM

Stamb

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Exactly, this is what I was talking about. It is super annoying to lose 50% of CPP for this.

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(in reply to Beethoven1)

Post #: 123

RE: Of Course Not, The Entire Game Is An Anti-German De... - 2/16/2022 9:48:17 PM

AlbertN

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Well - anything that is low strength or small combat unit.
It is also quite amusing how the German division, seemingly pretty much full strength (prolly well tired or so) is 30 CV while the Soviet one intervening as reserve is 50. (Lowered by 10% already I think)

With a bucket of airforce over their heads.

(in reply to Stamb)

Post #: 124

RE: Of Course Not, The Entire Game Is An Anti-German De... - 2/16/2022 10:25:29 PM

Beethoven1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

Well - anything that is low strength or small combat unit.
It is also quite amusing how the German division, seemingly pretty much full strength (prolly well tired or so) is 30 CV while the Soviet one intervening as reserve is 50. (Lowered by 10% already I think)

With a bucket of airforce over their heads.

Well, before we get too carried away with this, this battle result was not at all typical. If it were, I would not have taken 240k casualties just from grinding.

The German unit had 6 cv. Since it was cut in half from being a hasty attack, that made it 3 (all the CVs displayed in battle results like that are displayed as multiplied by 10, like someone forgot a decimal place in the UI). Overall there were 56 Axis attacks, only 3 of which were holds:

Looking at the "D men" column there is also informative. You can see there are a lot of battles where D men is 2000 or so. Those are attacks against very low cv cavalry/airborne divisions etc where the purpose is just to force an attack and create combat delay (lowering CPP is part of it, but often the combat delay is the more important bit). There are also quite a few where D men is 20,000 or higher. Those are all battles with 2 or 3 defending divisions. I had a lot of hexes where I was trying to stack up units in the hopes that would lower the casualties a bit. But this makes my defense here very schizophrenic. I have some very high CV hexes and some very low ones also, but not a lot in between.

But despite taking a lot of losses, it doesn't particularly feel like I am in any real danger. It is pretty much impossible for Germany to get any encirclements, because I simply have too much troop density in the places where I *AM* defending, as a result of abandoning other places (the south). Moreover, if he did get any, I could probably break them out - or at least probably could if I didn't get screwed by leader rolls.

I have fully 24 units with offensive CVs of 10 or higher, some of which would be available to break out any possible encirclement. Bread is not giving me any free shots at his Panzers so far because he knows this all too well:

(in reply to AlbertN)

Post #: 125

RE: Of Course Not, The Entire Game Is An Anti-German De... - 2/17/2022 2:59:29 PM

Beethoven1

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End of Soviet Turn 9

In the north, I did something pretty unusual for me, I retreated to the areas most people retreat to in better defensive terrain. I did this in the hope that casualties will be lower in this terrain than if we slog through all the light forest. My units are also stacked up without much depth. Hopefully this should not be a problem this turn at least, since infantry will not be in range for deliberate attacks for a lot of hexes, but next turn this might be more of a problem. I am not sure how this will work, as I am not used to not having depth, and am a bit worried about it. The only reason I am doing it are the high losses from bad leader rolls. Hopefully it does not blow up in my face.

In the center, I am holding firm for now behind Smolensk. Bread is still not through the swamp/forest line chokepoints. I expect he should be by next turn, which will probably make this line no longer really holdable. In addition, a lot of my units are getting pretty beaten up by the high losses. This would not be a problem in a normal game, but at this point is becoming somewhat of an issue due to the lack of generals/HQs.

A bit further south, I reluctantly retreated near Roslavl because Bread had gotten into the clear terrain bit.

And now we will finally reveal that I have been building a big Bryansk-Kursk fort line, which Bread is about to run into and I think he has spotted on recon by this point probably. Most of the forts are up to level 2 by this point, and hopefully some of them will start becoming level 3 next turn. Hopefully we can grind the German advance at least temporarily to a halt here, and hopefully the forts will lower my losses. Especially in the Kursk part of this line, German logistics should be pretty bad by that point. However, he has basically reached the Bryansk part of the line and has Panzers and motorized units there, so hopefully it will be enough to actually stop the advance, at least temporarily, and he doesn't simply blow straight through it.

Around Rostov, here is my defense. I might have been a bit too slow in sending units here, I may have sent too many to Kerch and Sevastopol and not enough to here. A turn or 2 ago, I was planning to send a few more infantry divisions here, but accidentally forgot and deployed them elsewhere. This is my first time having to defend Rostov, so I am not entirely sure how it will go. I know it is supposed to be difficult to take, but am not sure how much of that is due to normally having more delay further up. I suspect I will probably lose Rostov at some point soon, but not sure how soon, because I don't know exactly how weak the Axis units will actually be.

My Kerch fort is quite strong, with 61 offensive CV (obviously higher defensive). Hopefully it will get to level 4 fort before Germany can attack it.

I tried to do a naval invasion of Odessa from Sevastopol. I started planning this on turn 1. I have no idea how this works, since I have never done it. I clicked invade, and the black sea amphibious thing moved to Odessa. However, it didn't send any troops there. I guess either it will do so at the start of next turn or something, or alternatively maybe it doesn't work since the troops are in a city fort. Also, there seems to be no way to pick how many troops you want to invade with. If I had a choice, I would invade with only 1 division, in the hopes that it is undefended. However, maybe it will dump the entire Sevastopol garrison next to Odessa.

On the map, there is this naval movement icon next to Sevastopol, so I guess it is doing something, or maybe it is bugged with city forts.

We will find out, I guess!

(in reply to Beethoven1)

Post #: 126

RE: Of Course Not, The Entire Game Is An Anti-German De... - 2/17/2022 4:00:01 PM

Stamb

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From Sevastopol to Odessa and Berlin!

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Post #: 127

RE: Of Course Not, The Entire Game Is An Anti-German De... - 2/17/2022 5:43:46 PM

Beethoven1

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Start of Soviet Turn 10

The naval invasion of Odessa did not work, probably a city fort bug. Bug (I assume it is a bug, anyway) reported - https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=5148059

Partly as a result, Sevastopol fell. I had 4 divisions in there. If I had not done a naval invasion (attempt), I was planning to evacuate them over towards Rostov. So unfortunately that will mean a few more losses next turn.

Other than that, it was a remarkably quiet turn. My losses were much lower, only 110k.

Only 1 attack in the north, infantry just catching up to the front where I retreated. No attacks by Panzer Group 4, so is it still there, or did it leave and go to the center? HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM. And I have no recon to run to try and see, so that makes thins tricky and I will need to be careful.

Not many attacks in the center either:

Not much here either:

And not much in the south. The most interesting thing that happened in the south is the Crimea NKVD rifle division's deployment... It deployed not in Crimea, but... in the Caucasus...

(in reply to Stamb)

Post #: 128

RE: Of Course Not, The Entire Game Is An Anti-German De... - 2/17/2022 5:46:49 PM

Beethoven1

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Battle screenshot for the epic siege of Sevastopol btw:

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Post #: 129

RE: Of Course Not, The Entire Game Is An Anti-German De... - 2/17/2022 6:41:01 PM

AlbertN

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I can feel the fact it's the Stavka in command.
These troops in the lvl 5 Fort fought very poorly due to the overly distant HQ.

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Post #: 130

RE: Of Course Not, The Entire Game Is An Anti-German De... - 2/17/2022 10:52:27 PM

carlkay58

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Amphib assaults are resolved in the next Enemy Logistics Phase. You will see it move adjacent to the landing hex during your turn and the resolution will be in the following Logistics Phase. You can watch the landing resolve after you end your turn and before the game is handed over to your opponent.

(in reply to AlbertN)

Post #: 131

RE: Of Course Not, The Entire Game Is An Anti-German De... - 2/18/2022 2:12:35 PM

Beethoven1

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End of Soviet Turn 10

In the north I added at least a very minimal amount of depth. If somehow my units rout rather than retreat on the front though despite the high CVs and terrain, some sort of breakthrough might be possible. Hopefully that won't happen and the front solidifies, with forts starting to build up to level 2, and if Axis stops being able to more than a few attacks here, hopefully that will help reduce my losses.

In the center, I did something very uncharacteristic for me - retreated voluntarily. In my previous games I have NEVER done a voluntarily general retreat in either the north or the center. So I am interested to see how it works and if it is actually beneficial.

I did not really need to do this. I could have pretty easily stuck around for another turn. There was still a lot of good defensive terrain, but he had gotten up to the last bit of really good defensive terrain and there might have risked some sort of limited breakthrough/small encirclement or something in the clear terrain around Durovo and Yelnya.

However, part of the point of this AAR is to try to get a big OOB with the help of abandoning the south and to find out to what degree Soviets can abuse the game's incentives. And having held for as long near Smolensk as I have, there is really not much reason not to retreat. There are no VPs until we get all the way back to Rzhev and Tula. I am retreating basically 3 hexes everywhere, which should mean that none of the German infantry can do deliberate attacks, which will hopefully keep my losses lower despite not using armies/generals.

However, I am holding firm at least for now nearby Bryansk. Since I have built these forts, I am going to use them to hold out for at least another turn or two, until he can break through the fort line. At that point I will presumably retreat. I may be able to hold Orel for long enough to deny Axis some bonus VPs from it. Since it held until turn 15 historically, I need to hold it until at least turn 12 to start bleeding VPs, which is another 2 turns.

Near Rostov, my defense is starting to come together. At least somewhat. I have some more reserves coming. I did a counterattack against a 1 CV Hungarian motorized brigade. The German logistics should be pretty bad here, as (I think?) they should not be getting port supply from the nearby ports since I still hold Kerch. If I am lucky, maybe I can hold Rostov despite having abandoned the south. But even if I lose it, it is not a particularly big deal and perhaps I can take it back in winter. The thing that probably hurts me more is losing the population/manpower in the Donbas, though if I had fought to defend it seriously I would have taken more losses which would have likely more than offset the manpower gain from holding it a bit longer.

In Crimea, some cavalry goes forward to say hello, and finds some Romanians. Hopefully putting them there to get attacked may help delay slightly the eventual attack on Kerch, at the cost of some low losses. Even if both cavalry divisions shatter, I will lose less than 3500 men and a total of 8 guns.

< Message edited by Beethoven1 -- 2/18/2022 2:21:13 PM >

(in reply to Beethoven1)

Post #: 132

RE: Of Course Not, The Entire Game Is An Anti-German De... - 2/18/2022 2:17:05 PM

jubjub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

I can feel the fact it's the Stavka in command.
These troops in the lvl 5 Fort fought very poorly due to the overly distant HQ.

Yep, haven't been following, but likely the corps he had in there disbanded. Always need an army or airborne corps in those situations.

(in reply to AlbertN)

Post #: 133

RE: Of Course Not, The Entire Game Is An Anti-German De... - 2/18/2022 2:22:45 PM

jubjub

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quote:

I was not playing this awesome game in that golden era when Axis had 6 assault forms with 12 corps capacity. I only saw it in youtube :(

You mean the era when Soviets got 28 Command Capacity per army in AHQ's and could have all their best generals covering the front by turn 4? Yeah, you didn't miss out on much.

(in reply to Stamb)

Post #: 134

RE: Of Course Not, The Entire Game Is An Anti-German De... - 2/18/2022 2:25:18 PM

Beethoven1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jubjub

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

I can feel the fact it's the Stavka in command.
These troops in the lvl 5 Fort fought very poorly due to the overly distant HQ.

Yep, haven't been following, but likely the corps he had in there disbanded. Always need an army or airborne corps in those situations.

This is a special test game. Soviets are not using HQs for this game (apart from the 2 assault fronts, where everything is controlled directly by the front). Other than that, everything is controlled directly by STAVKA for this game.

Despite that handicap and also not using the VVS at all (which was buffed in the recent patch so now it actually can do some damage), at least so far it doesn't look to me like we are in any particular danger of a sudden death loss.

(in reply to jubjub)

Post #: 135

RE: Of Course Not, The Entire Game Is An Anti-German De... - 2/18/2022 2:36:47 PM

jubjub

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quote:

One reason for the relatively high losses is probably that the Axis bombers are being used and not contested at all by the non-existent Soviet Air Force. Here is one screenshot that Bread took. Although now that I look at it, maybe it is not having that much effect. It is disrupting elements, but this was with only 1 division defending. And it did not destroy all that much, considering it was 400+ German bombers bombing a single division with 0 Soviet fighter cover.

Likely these are just level bombers, which will only disrupt. However, disrupting 1/3 of your rifle/support squads will significantly reduce his losses and usually causes routs to be much worse. Also, should allow him to attack with fewer divisions.

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Post #: 136

RE: Of Course Not, The Entire Game Is An Anti-German De... - 2/18/2022 2:44:48 PM

AlbertN

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400 German bombers is a HUGE amount of bombers for an operational purpose.
Soviets have plenty of bombers though.

I just feel atm it's quantity and not quality that matters in the air in excess of favor to the former. At least for bombers.

< Message edited by AlbertN -- 2/18/2022 2:52:42 PM >

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Post #: 137

RE: Of Course Not, The Entire Game Is An Anti-German De... - 2/18/2022 5:08:54 PM

Beethoven1

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Start of Soviet Turn 11

This will help our admin rolls, Shaposhnikov has a good (8) admin rating.

Unfortunately, despite the retreat in the center my losses were higher this turn, around 208k. About 35k of those were the surrendering divisions in Sevastopol.

Nevertheless, I still have a decent amount more than 3 million men in the field. I also have 330k in reserve. A bunch of Siberians just arrived which I will be deploying soon.

The Transcaucasus is also up to 126% of theater box requirement, thanks to all the separate tank battalions and AT regiments and air commands etc that I have been sending there. I should be able to pull out basically all the infantry divisions and send them to the map soon:

Here's a screenshot after transferring the infantry divisions. Sadly there is one that I did not have quite enough theater box requirement to be able to transfer. Hopefully I can transfer it next turn when the separate tank battalions etc have their TOE go up a bit.

And for completeness, we should admire the Katyushas:

These are the troops that will be working with the British to take over Iran. A bunch of tanks, machine gunners, rocket artillery, anti-tank guns, and air force support/command personnel, and a handful of cavalry. Butt no infantry divisions.

So how did I take my 200k+ casualties despite retreating?

This in the north, partly. It seems like I was right all along about defense in depth, and that just stacking up troops on the Luga line in heavy forest/swamp is not the best idea. Granted though, I probably would have held somewhat better if I had generals leading my troops:

Nevertheless, Axis is way behind historical advance in the north. They "should" reach Lake Ladoga and cut off Leningrad in the next 1-2 turns if things were going historically.

Hardly any losses from the center, so I probably would have lost at least 300k if I didn't retreat there this turn.

Other than the north, a lot of my other losses came from here. Sadly a breach has already formed in the Bryansk-Kursk line, despite the level 2 forts. So I probably won't be able to hold too much longer in this area as much as I would have liked, unless German logistics really give out. Although this is one of those thins that would probably be a lot easier if I had generals.

Axis is making faster than historical progress in the south. They are not supposed to take Voroshilovgrad until 1942, but who's counting?

(in reply to AlbertN)

Post #: 138

RE: Of Course Not, The Entire Game Is An Anti-German De... - 2/18/2022 5:17:23 PM

Beethoven1

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2 minor issues of logistical interest.

1) Bread is getting some very small amounts of supply in the Sea of Azov ports, despite me holding Kursk.

2) How much did my attempts to cause rail damage and defending with lots of low quality units in the Baltic hurt the rails there?

(in reply to Beethoven1)

Post #: 139

RE: Of Course Not, The Entire Game Is An Anti-German De... - 2/18/2022 5:24:14 PM

Beethoven1

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Turn 11 VP situation

Axis has 578 VPs. If you don't count my 6 bonus VPs for re-taking Kiev on turn 4, then that would be 584.

They need 700 by turn 16 for a sudden death win, more than 100 additional VPs.

It doesn't look like that is going to happen unless I somehow manage to lose Moscow in the next few turns.

Hypothetically, if we continued the game long term with no Soviet generals/air force/artillery etc, I might have to worry about some of the 1942/43 checks, however.