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RE: How is Finland?

 
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RE: How is Finland? - 2/5/2022 12:49:51 PM   
Teemu1986

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hardradi
Thank you for your comment. In my post I was specifically meaning the Murmansk railway even though I did not mention it. In this case I understand that diplomatic pressure played a significant part in curtailing the Finnish advance. Specifically the Finnish III Corps.

The possibilities for cutting the Murmansk railroad existed from Dec 41 onwards when Finns reached Karhumäki (Medvezhyegorsk). In East Karelia the balance of forces was advantageous for continued offensive in the winter.
For the Finnish III Corps and the German forces, the resistance of the Red Army was too formidable in that sector of the front.

Diplomatic pressure was a factor in connection to the general military situation. After the Wehrmacht suffered a reversal of fortune in the front of Moscow, Finland had to consider a long war and a strong possibility that Germany will be defeated. Finland wouldn't care about British/American pressure if the Russian Colossus crumbles.

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Post #: 31
RE: How is Finland? - 2/5/2022 1:57:54 PM   
Sardaukar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Teemu1986

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hardradi
Thank you for your comment. In my post I was specifically meaning the Murmansk railway even though I did not mention it. In this case I understand that diplomatic pressure played a significant part in curtailing the Finnish advance. Specifically the Finnish III Corps.

The possibilities for cutting the Murmansk railroad existed from Dec 41 onwards when Finns reached Karhumäki (Medvezhyegorsk). In East Karelia the balance of forces was advantageous for continued offensive in the winter.
For the Finnish III Corps and the German forces, the resistance of the Red Army was too formidable in that sector of the front.

Diplomatic pressure was a factor in connection to the general military situation. After the Wehrmacht suffered a reversal of fortune in the front of Moscow, Finland had to consider a long war and a strong possibility that Germany will be defeated. Finland wouldn't care about British/American pressure if the Russian Colossus crumbles.


German reversal near Moscow was also combined with one of the Hitler's less than stellar decisions, declaring war on USA.

That certainly caused government and military leadership of Finland to reassess situation.

< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 2/5/2022 2:00:34 PM >

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Post #: 32
RE: How is Finland? - 2/5/2022 2:00:18 PM   
Stamb

 

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Status: offline 		Was it possible for the Germans to not be in a war with USA while their allies - Japan are?

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Post #: 33
RE: How is Finland? - 2/5/2022 2:18:50 PM   
xhoel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

Was it possible for the Germans to not be in a war with USA while their allies - Japan are?


It was. The German alliance with Japan was as loose as an alliance gets. There was barely any coordination between the two. Hitler declaring war on the USA was one of his biggest mistakes.

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Post #: 34
RE: How is Finland? - 2/5/2022 2:51:44 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Status: offline 		Tripartite Pact was entirely defensive - thus yes Eu-Axis could have washed hands of US and let the Japan have a go at it.

Then people may argue about what USA would have done in that situation. With an active war at hand would the 'democratic popular demand' sway it to a Japan only business and not wanting to bleed further for someone that ... have not exactly directly aggressed them in a way akin to Pearl Harbour, the 'Day of Infamy'? Would have it be steered to get involved in European war over time, through popular opinion, propaganda and congress battles?

It's a huge What-If business; which in general in WW2 games for balance sake - where kept as option - merely delays US entry in a 'total war' by some months; and that is a quite viable way to handle it. But it is entirely out of the scope and purpose here.




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Post #: 35
RE: How is Finland? - 2/5/2022 3:15:42 PM   
Sardaukar


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Status: offline 		Roosevelt had stretched neutrality a lot towards UK side, but isolationist public opinion and politicians had prevented further steps.

With Japan attacking Pearl Harbor, focus would have shifted quite totally towards Pacific. Roosevelt would have had great difficulty getting support for declaring war on Germany also. Thus Hitler did a great favour for Allies by declaring war on USA.

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Post #: 36
RE: How is Finland? - 2/5/2022 3:52:11 PM   
xhoel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Roosevelt had stretched neutrality a lot towards UK side, but isolationist public opinion and politicians had prevented further steps.

With Japan attacking Pearl Harbor, focus would have shifted quite totally towards Pacific. Roosevelt would have had great difficulty getting support for declaring war on Germany also. Thus Hitler did a great favour for Allies by declaring war on USA.


This has always been my view on the matter as well. It would have been hard for Roosevelt to "sell" a European war to the American people when Germany had made no aggressive moves towards the US. Hitler foolishly declaring war on the USA meant that the decision was made for the Americans and all they had to do is declare war back.

To the matter at hand: I think it is more than plausible that a German player that is doing a lot better than history and that has captured Leningrad would have caused the Finns to have an opinion change on whether they would pursue further offensive action against the Soviets or not.

It would be nice to have some events that reflect that and would make the game more dynamic/would incentivize the Soviets to defend the North harder while at the same time incentivizing the German player to not neglect AGN.

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Post #: 37
RE: How is Finland? - 2/6/2022 5:50:29 AM   
Feltan


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Status: offline 		Not only was Hitler declaring war against the US a huge error, he missed a grand opportunity.

What if post Pearl Harbor, Hitler voided the Tripartite Pact and declared war against Japan and offered support to the US.

No way the US congress could have ever declared war against Germany with that olive branch extended. Too many German-American heritage population (I seem to recall about 60% of US population at the time was either German heritage or partial heritage).

Thankfully the world didn't have to deal with that mess.

Regards,
Feltan

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Post #: 38
RE: How is Finland? - 2/7/2022 3:22:43 AM   
Sardaukar


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Status: offline 		I am reasonably happy with Finnish TB. There are few things I'd change though.

1. Finnish divisions should arrive north of Leningrad when city is captured. Finns did not want to have anything to do with the city, btw.

2. Combat intensity after capture should be set higher with theater troop commitments adjusted.

3. Event for (small) chance of severing Murmansk rail connection. That'd require reducing Lend-Lease a bit (most of it came via Persia).

I am not sure if that could be modded or requiring a code change.

< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 2/7/2022 3:24:01 AM >

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Post #: 39
RE: How is Finland? - 2/8/2022 6:15:37 AM   
Teemu1986

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
I am reasonably happy with Finnish TB. There are few things I'd change though.

1. Finnish divisions should arrive north of Leningrad when city is captured. Finns did not want to have anything to do with the city, btw.

2. Combat intensity after capture should be set higher with theater troop commitments adjusted.

3. Event for (small) chance of severing Murmansk rail connection. That'd require reducing Lend-Lease a bit (most of it came via Persia).

I am not sure if that could be modded or requiring a code change.

1. Most likely they would deploy to East Karelia. If there is no Svir front due to German advances, it’s a different matter. Then put as many as 9 on the map.

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Post #: 40
RE: How is Finland? - 2/17/2022 4:46:35 PM   
Stamb

 

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Status: offline 		Am I the only one who expects to receive I Fin. Corps as Fin. Expeditionary Corps on a map? This is what I can see from a message. But I Fin. corps is still in Finland and locked.

Is this a bug?




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 41
RE: How is Finland? - 2/17/2022 5:11:45 PM   
RedJohn

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

Am I the only one who expects to receive I Fin. Corps as Fin. Expeditionary Corps on a map? This is what I can see from a message. But I Fin. corps is still in Finland and locked.

Is this a bug?





As far as I'm aware you don't get the I Corps. The finnish divisions should appear in your reinforcement long, usually arriving in like 3-4 turns. You'd expect them to appear at, well, Leningrad, but hey, they appear in Germany.

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Post #: 42
RE: How is Finland? - 2/17/2022 5:23:24 PM   
Stamb

 

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Status: offline 		Yeah. I got divisions in Rostock. And no Corps. And I wonder if this is a bug? Foreign divisions take 3 capacity slots each. It is pretty hard to fit them on map. Whole German corps is needed for 3 divisions.

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Post #: 43
RE: How is Finland? - 2/17/2022 7:56:13 PM   
Hardradi


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Status: offline 		The Corps is not included as part of the event.

I dont think the in game Event functionality allows you to place units on the map in specific locations.

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Post #: 44
RE: How is Finland? - 2/17/2022 8:01:33 PM   
Stamb

 

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Status: offline 		But it says that I Fin. corps becomes Fin. Expeditionary Corps under direct German control and available for on map operations.

I do not see Fin. Expeditionary Corps, I still see I Fin. corps and it is not on the map nor under German control

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Post #: 45
RE: How is Finland? - 2/17/2022 10:02:40 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Status: offline 		That text is fluff.

The real effect text is the one below that it lists clearly only 3 divisions are arriving; and then that the TB needs are altered.

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Post #: 46
RE: How is Finland? - 2/17/2022 10:13:12 PM   
Stamb

 

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Status: offline 		Then this text needs to be edited. Or, which is more reasonable thing to do, add that Finish corps to a map. I think it is right idea that Finns arrive with their corps, agree?

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Post #: 47
RE: How is Finland? - 2/17/2022 10:20:21 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Status: offline 		I do agree that the Corps should arrive on map too.

But all the events have a 'text for historical sake' component, and an 'text depicting game effect' component.
So one is litteral flavour!

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Post #: 48
RE: How is Finland? - 2/18/2022 12:46:24 PM   
sven6345789

 

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quote:

You'd expect them to appear at, well, Leningrad, but hey, they appear in Germany.


Could that have to do with reinforcements being hardcoded? Manual says you can bring them in from reserve directly to the map, but only inside your original (1941) borders.

Otherwise, Finland works ok at the moment.

After all, it was a low intensity theatre for most of the war, also due to political reasons.

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Post #: 49
RE: How is Finland? - 2/18/2022 12:48:18 PM   
malyhin1517


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Status: offline 		There are fixed hexes for the arrival of units on the map from the theater. From Finland, units arrive in northern Germany.

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Sorry, i use an online translator :(

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Post #: 50
RE: How is Finland? - 2/18/2022 2:37:20 PM   
Karri

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
3. Event for (small) chance of severing Murmansk rail connection. That'd require reducing Lend-Lease a bit (most of it came via Persia).


I doubt there was any realistic chance of cutting it permanently. There were no real supply connections the Finns could have used in that direction for logistics, whereas the Soviets were literally supplied by one of the main arteries of lend-lease.

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Post #: 51
RE: How is Finland? - 2/18/2022 8:15:18 PM   
Teemu1986

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri
I doubt there was any realistic chance of cutting it permanently. There were no real supply connections the Finns could have used in that direction for logistics, whereas the Soviets were literally supplied by one of the main arteries of lend-lease.

Finns were supplied in that direction by the part of Murmansk railroad which was captured.
Military possibilities for success existed according to this Master’s thesis on the topic.
https://www.doria.fi/bitstream/handle/10024/74464/SM660.pdf

< Message edited by Teemu1986 -- 2/18/2022 8:17:23 PM >

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Post #: 52
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