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RE: Screenshots - 2/19/2004 11:37:01 PM

eg0master

Posts: 161
Joined: 3/20/2002
From: Stockholm, Sweden
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I can only agree that functionality is more important than "fashion".
If I remember correctly you are able to use the EiA name so using the original EiA counters should not be a problem. THey are simple and yiou easily see what is cavalry and what is not...

(in reply to jnier)

Post #: 31

RE: Screenshots - 2/20/2004 12:48:38 AM

Hoche

Posts: 491
Joined: 11/30/2002
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I would prefer a classic look. I like the look of my cyberboard. But I won't mind if Matrix gets a little fancy with the counters.

What is important is a functional, bug free game with a challenging AI.

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Post #: 32

RE: Screenshots - 2/20/2004 1:07:07 AM

Forward_March

Posts: 201
Joined: 6/26/2003
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Great Screenshots, Bart! Thanks a bunch.

(in reply to Hoche)

Post #: 33

RE: Screenshots - 2/20/2004 8:46:13 AM

Pippin

Posts: 1233
Joined: 11/9/2002
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quote:

I agree about the shape of the counters, but I don't think everyone will ever agree on the aesthetics of the counters. So let's hope that they will be mod-able, so that people can make their own classic counters if they like

I am pretty sure they will be mod-able. The question is, will it be legal to do so?

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Post #: 34

RE: Screenshots - 2/20/2004 6:02:03 PM

Single Malt

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Joined: 2/20/2004
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First off Thanks for the Screen shots.

I also prefer the classic look of square counters but designers will design.

Minor problem with Screenshot #3 the icon for the Outflank looks more like a tactical envelope as apposed to an Outflank.Minor but the Devil is in the details.

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Post #: 35

RE: Screenshots - 2/21/2004 5:58:23 AM

oldtimer

Posts: 48
Joined: 2/15/2004
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More screenshots at this location http://www.gamezone.com/gamesell/p21036.htm

(in reply to Single Malt)

Post #: 36

RE: Screenshot 03 - 2/22/2004 10:34:44 AM

pfnognoff

Posts: 631
Joined: 5/6/2003
From: Zagreb, Croatia
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First, off course, thank you for letting us see the screens, that will keep the mouth watered for a bit longer...

Now, just one comment, judging form the third screenshot it is possible to pick your combat chits after the forces are revealed. This off course isn't allowed in the original EiA game rules, nor in the EiH. I would say it should be corrected if possible. I can't say how much influence this change, if not corrected, would have on the game balance...

Rules sequence is:
7.5.2.1 Step 1 - Selection of chits
---
7.5.2.6 Step 6 - Reveal forces

Thanks again for the nice pics, and all your efforts to give us the best game!

< Message edited by pfnognoff -- 2/22/2004 9:43:04 AM >

(in reply to Bart Koehler)

Post #: 37

RE: Screenshot 03 - 2/22/2004 11:02:57 PM

oldtimer

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pfnognoff,

Just to clarify because from your post I got the impression you think I work for Matrix or something. I don't. I am just an old EiA fan who was searching through the web and found those screen shots. Thought I would share with the group.

I agree though I think it is a HUGE mistake to reveal corp strengths BEFORE combat if, in fact, Matrix does do this.

(in reply to pfnognoff)

Post #: 38

RE: Screenshots - 2/23/2004 4:27:20 AM

Marshall Ellis

Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline

Hello all from the dev team:

Just wanted to thank everybody for the comments! A few notes,

Yes, the font on the combat screen is pre-release and will be changed to something a little more readable. We thought the dot-matrix look was a little more accurate since they were first introduced back in 1805 :-)

The screens you see are dev screens so keep in mind that much of the information you see today will not be available in the released version. Hmmmmm???? Maybe there is a cheat code to turn force levels on and off ... ???

I agree with the post about the corps / garrisons and depots. We are looking at changes for the corps and garrison units to make them a little more unique.

Sorry about the text size BUT this game requires a ton of detail to be shown at one time or to be easily accessed and believe me, I could have used up another thousand pixels of screen space! My best advice ... ??? Get a 21" monitor!

Hope this helps and thanks again for the input.

Anyway, back to the dark depths of the dev-dungeon...

Thank you

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Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games

(in reply to eg0master)

Post #: 39

RE: Screenshots - 2/23/2004 5:40:25 AM

denisonh

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From: Upstate SC
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Once again Ellis, I like the progress (and the info, of course!).

Keep up the fire and ensure this game is ready when it is shipped.

Thanks for the bones!

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Post #: 40

RE: Screenshot 03 - 2/23/2004 4:29:43 PM

VaughanMills

Posts: 1
Joined: 5/28/2003
Status: offline

Thanks for the screenshots Bart. I have a non-design query about the combat screen. The screen appears to show the attacker about to select their "chit", but the forces on both sides are already displayed. In EiA and EiH forces are not revealed until after chit selection and is a fairly fundamental plank of the combat system (and FOW). Will this be different in the computer version and if so how?

Cheers,

Vaughan

(in reply to Bart Koehler)

Post #: 41

RE: Screenshot 03 - 2/23/2004 7:45:46 PM

Bart Koehler

Posts: 277
Joined: 12/16/2002
From: Mt. Olive, NJ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pfnognoff

First, off course, thank you for letting us see the screens, that will keep the mouth watered for a bit longer...

Now, just one comment, judging form the third screenshot it is possible to pick your combat chits after the forces are revealed. This off course isn't allowed in the original EiA game rules, nor in the EiH. I would say it should be corrected if possible. I can't say how much influence this change, if not corrected, would have on the game balance...

Rules sequence is:
7.5.2.1 Step 1 - Selection of chits
---
7.5.2.6 Step 6 - Reveal forces

Thanks again for the nice pics, and all your efforts to give us the best game!

We are looking into this right now. I mentioned it to Marshall and we will evaluate this as part of the rule set. Good catch. This is why things take so long in development. Catch a bug, kill a bug...repeat.

Bart

(in reply to pfnognoff)

Post #: 42

RE: Screenshot 03 - 2/23/2004 9:10:37 PM

pfnognoff

Posts: 631
Joined: 5/6/2003
From: Zagreb, Croatia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bart Koehler

We are looking into this right now. I mentioned it to Marshall and we will evaluate this as part of the rule set. Good catch. This is why things take so long in development. Catch a bug, kill a bug...repeat.

Bart

I'm very happy to be able to help. Like I said this is the best game and it deserves equaly good computer version. Bugs are very nasty little critters and they tend to leave little offsprings upon removal

Maybe we can get some more screens to play "kill the bug" with them?

(in reply to Bart Koehler)

Post #: 43

RE: Screenshots - 2/24/2004 6:28:16 AM

Veldor

Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
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I think perhaps the black outline around each unit is not pronounced enough and that framing each one better would enhance the overall look enough that everything else would be pretty much fine as is.

I believe this goes along with what some others have said about giving the unit counter some "depth".

Use a small thin "picture frame" around each one shaded to give the appearance of depth. That's all the 3D that is needed here.

Otherwise IMHO I think most of those that would critique the graphics for this game would not be happy no matter what changes you make since its clear it will not be a "3D" game and I would personally rather see the effort spent elsewhere (such as on the AI for the programmers or other projects for the graphics guys)....

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Post #: 44

RE: Screenshots - 2/24/2004 5:15:33 PM

Blacksheep

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From: Maryland USA
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EIA is a great game, can hardly wait for release. Please keep your priorities straight though: clean game first -- pretty pictures (counters) can come later.

(in reply to Veldor)

Post #: 45

RE: Screenshot 03 - 2/24/2004 6:04:24 PM

Le Tondu

Posts: 564
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bart Koehler

quote:

ORIGINAL: pfnognoff

First, off course, thank you for letting us see the screens, that will keep the mouth watered for a bit longer...

Now, just one comment, judging form the third screenshot it is possible to pick your combat chits after the forces are revealed. This off course isn't allowed in the original EiA game rules, nor in the EiH. I would say it should be corrected if possible. I can't say how much influence this change, if not corrected, would have on the game balance...

Rules sequence is:
7.5.2.1 Step 1 - Selection of chits
---
7.5.2.6 Step 6 - Reveal forces

Thanks again for the nice pics, and all your efforts to give us the best game!

We are looking into this right now. I mentioned it to Marshall and we will evaluate this as part of the rule set. Good catch. This is why things take so long in development. Catch a bug, kill a bug...repeat.

Bart

Should anyone WONDER why I was so vocal about having Matrix show us some screenshots, please read the above exchange and you will KNOW why.

No one or group of beta testers are pefect!

If anything, the justification and the NEED for the posting of MORE screenshots here in this discussion forum is greater than EVER.

Please post more screenshots.

I'm not saying that the game developers are incompetent or that this game is riddled with bugs and errors. All I am saying is that with more eyes looking for something overlooked, the better things will be all around. It might even mean less work later on when the game is on the CD-ROM.

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Post #: 46

RE: Screenshot 03 - 2/24/2004 6:31:10 PM

mrgodo

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Joined: 2/19/2004
From: Ottawa, Ontario
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quote:

Should anyone WONDER why I was so vocal about having Matrix show us some screenshots, please read the above exchange and you will KNOW why.

No one or group of beta testers are pefect!

I think you're crossing the line here. For me, screenshots are tidbits which lead to an uncontrollable salivating reaction at the mere thought of getting my hands on this nectar of computational science and wargaming. It also suggests that someone is working on it and gives an impression on where they might be in their development.

As a professional software tester, I do not believe that these screenshots will provide the general masses with an opportunity of finding flaws with the product. Sure, you noticed something here that contravenes the rules. But these screenshots are by no means final and we have no idea exactly where they are in terms of development. By pleading with them to release more screenshots so we can find their mistakes is just asking them to clam up more! Nice disclaimer, but it doesn't erase the fact that you've expressed a remarkable lack of faith. The above quote to me has a very harsh "I told you so! I'm so right and my screaming for screenshots is justified!" tone to it which I feel serves no constructive purpose.

Remember the seinfeld episode where jerry heckles that woman at her work? Whining that matrix should feel obligated to release work in progress so that the general public can help in finding mistakes is close to the same thing. Now they will have to reveiw what they're releasing more closely to make sure that what they're releasing doesn't have any major errors that will bring to question the level of quality of the product. This will just add more stress to Bart and crew.

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Post #: 47

RE: Screenshot 03 - 2/24/2004 6:44:45 PM

NeverMan

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Yes more screenshots does mean the possibility of more errors getting caught.

I would love to see the original counter look put into this game. I can't even tell what half these counters are. They are much too complicated and busy looking, and they are not even good looking. The original counters would look great.

The problem with "beta testers" is that they are not always picked by who has played the game the most or even if they have ever played the game. Most of them are picked because they are loyal company customers, so it doesn't surprise me that the process is taking this long. Also, I kinda got the impression somewhere along the line that the software engineers for this game have never even played it, which would make writing code for it extremely difficult. IMHO.

That being said, I love the map. It looks great.

Yeah, the original release date was like Summer 2003. What happened there?

(in reply to mrgodo)

Post #: 48

RE: Screenshot 03 - 2/24/2004 7:22:23 PM

Le Tondu

Posts: 564
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline

mrgodo,
You have missed the boat entirely. My posts regarding this issue have really NOT been self serving. Rather, they have been about helping this community and this game get done RIGHT. If you could read all of my posts since the very first one that I posted here, you would see that I have been VERY supportive of this game and having it done right. I have repeatedly stated and I will again, I don't care how long it takes, just do it right. Take extra time for heaven's sake.

So promises were made to post screenshots back in November. When nothing happened and it was FEBRUARY, I was unhappy. I admit that I was passionate in voicing my feelings, but I wasn't alone.

As an artist, I know that any screenshot is a work in progress and I also know that screenshots are regularly released by game developers for very good reasons.

mrgodo you said:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I think you're crossing the line here. For me, screenshots are tidbits which lead to an uncontrollable salivating reaction at the mere thought of getting my hands on this nectar of computational science and wargaming. It also suggests that someone is working on it and gives an impression on where they might be in their development.

As a professional software tester, I do not believe that these screenshots will provide the general masses with an opportunity of finding flaws with the product. Sure, you noticed something here that contravenes the rules. But these screenshots are by no means final and we have no idea exactly where they are in terms of development. By pleading with them to release more screenshots so we can find their mistakes is just asking them to clam up more! Nice disclaimer, but it doesn't erase the fact that you've expressed a remarkable lack of faith. The above quote to me has a very harsh "I told you so! I'm so right and my screaming for screenshots is justified!" tone to it which I feel serves no constructive purpose.

Remember the seinfeld episode where jerry heckles that woman at her work? Whining that matrix should feel obligated to release work in progress so that the general public can help in finding mistakes is close to the same thing. Now they will have to reveiw what they're releasing more closely to make sure that what they're releasing doesn't have any major errors that will bring to question the level of quality of the product. This will just add more stress to Bart and crew.

_____________________________

Andrew God�
Superavisti palum ignum.
Adiaris, sed nemo sustinet machinam! "
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was not the one to find the error (if it turns out to be one at all), so my post cannot be an "I told you so" post. My posting was meant to be constructive and pfnognoff finding the error vindicates my original premise.

Sorry, I don't watch much television. If any stress is given to the developement team, it couldn't be from me. It would have to be from the finding of the error in the first place. -Which I believe is not a bad thing in the long run. Please note that I didn't put it there.

It isn't with faith that I buy a game. It is with money. I cannot think of a company that is so reticent to showing screenshots as this one. I want to know what I will spend my money on before I do.

I say again -no one is perfect. The finding of an error and being double sure there are no others is a GOOD thing. Can't you see that? You seem to be advocating what some in the computer gaming industry have been doing for years -which is putting out games that are riddled with bugs and errors. That serves no one except getting those intial sales made until the potential community that could buy the game dries up and goes away. --AND that is something I don't want to see happen here.

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Post #: 49

RE: Screenshot 03 - 2/24/2004 7:25:41 PM

Le Tondu

Posts: 564
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Seattle, WA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

Yes more screenshots does mean the possibility of more errors getting caught.

I would love to see the original counter look put into this game. I can't even tell what half these counters are. They are much too complicated and busy looking, and they are not even good looking. The original counters would look great.

The problem with "beta testers" is that they are not always picked by who has played the game the most or even if they have ever played the game. Most of them are picked because they are loyal company customers, so it doesn't surprise me that the process is taking this long. Also, I kinda got the impression somewhere along the line that the software engineers for this game have never even played it, which would make writing code for it extremely difficult. IMHO.

That being said, I love the map. It looks great.

Yeah, the original release date was like Summer 2003. What happened there?

Yes, the unit images are VERY hard to see in the screenshots, but could that be a screen resolution kind-of-thing. I mean when the screenshot is actually as big as the screen, will the units look so blurry? Once the game is released, I don't think that it will be too long for a mod to be released that will be based on the original counters.

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Post #: 50

RE: Screenshot 03 - 2/25/2004 3:58:30 AM

NeverMan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Le Tondu
Once the game is released, I don't think that it will be too long for a mod to be released that will be based on the original counters.

Yes, you are probably right, however, why should a mod be needed when almost 99% of the people on this site (basically the people who are actually going to buy this game) would prefer the original counters?

I mean, maybe (if MatrixGames is lucky), they will actually make a decent amount of money on the retail store sales, however, I think it's unlikely. So most of their money will probably be coming from us, EiA and StrategyWarGamers fans, who are on this forum.

(in reply to Le Tondu)

Post #: 51

RE: Screenshot 03 - 2/25/2004 5:14:42 AM

denisonh

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From: Upstate SC
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Damn boys, I want the best strategic Napoleonic game to date with PBEM capability.

Graphics are NICE, but they sure as hell don't equate to substance. Canvas opinions about graphics and more importantly get feedback on the user interface, but keep the comments focused and in perspective.

Yea, yea, you need the cheez-wiz for some folks, but a good game, with PBEM and a EASY TO USE interface are more critical than if the Ottoman Vizier has the right kind of beard or Infantry units lookin EXACTLY like the EiA counters.

I suggest y'all chill and let the programmers build a game that will stay on the hard drive for 2 years like UV. That is not a function of graphics.

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Post #: 52

RE: Screenshot 03 - 2/25/2004 12:42:10 PM

DoomedMantis

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I like the screenshots, and also prefer graphics over counters in general

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Post #: 53

RE: Screenshot 03 - 2/25/2004 3:12:03 PM

Marshall Ellis

Posts: 5630
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From: Dallas
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Hey guys:

A couple of things...

The screen shot reflected an active cheat code. Yes, it was a bug but only in the sense that the cheat code was active by default (This actually goes away in a release version anyway). Remember! You're looking at beta!

Also, it WAS true that I had not played EIA BUT that was two years ago. Needless to say, I've played a few times since then! It did make the coding a little hard to start which explains the numerous games I've played to learn. I hope it doesn't affect game quality. Right now, I'm in two PBEM games under an assumed name!

We're fixing our final elements of the game so the counters you see are more than likely the counters that will be in V1.00 . Once we get a section locked in, no more changes! We cannot continue to modify elements in this horrible never-ending loop of change-test-fix, change-test-fix, change-test-fix or we'll all be dust particles by the time this thing is released!

I don't think anything is off limits to say in this forum. You want screenshots? Scream for them and you'll get'em! This forum is for Matrix people as well so that we can listen to what our customers are saying and what they are wanting. If we don't like what someone sayes ... then we'll simply scroll down to the next post ... no hard feelings and move on. Most people on this forum are mature enough to have a spirited discussion without losing it! I say .. SCREAM FOR IT ... !!!

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Thank you

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Outflank Strategy War Games

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Post #: 54

RE: Screenshot 03 - 2/25/2004 3:31:06 PM

Le Tondu

Posts: 564
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Seattle, WA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

..........You want screenshots? Scream for them and you'll get'em! This forum is for Matrix people as well so that we can listen to what our customers are saying and what they are wanting. If we don't like what someone sayes ... then we'll simply scroll down to the next post ... no hard feelings and move on. Most people on this forum are mature enough to have a spirited discussion without losing it! I say .. SCREAM FOR IT ... !!!

Thanks again Marshall.

Could we have another serving of screenshots, please???

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Post #: 55

RE: Screenshot 03 - 2/25/2004 5:10:42 PM

ardilla

Posts: 399
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From: Castellon, Spain
Status: offline

Thanks Marshall Ellis for your comments.

So, I scream for an icecream!!!

I ment, I scream for more screenshots.

BTW, why dont you post the new screenshots in the EiA official web page?

Regards,
Manu.

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)

Post #: 56

RE: Screenshot 03 - 2/25/2004 8:29:29 PM

pfnognoff

Posts: 631
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From: Zagreb, Croatia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

The screen shot reflected an active cheat code. Yes, it was a bug but only in the sense that the cheat code was active by default (This actually goes away in a release version anyway). Remember! You're looking at beta!

This is sure good news, to here that it was a false alarm! I just hope you will forget the cheats before we take you on in a PBEM match after the release.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

I don't think anything is off limits to say in this forum. You want screenshots? Scream for them and you'll get'em! This forum is for Matrix people as well so that we can listen to what our customers are saying and what they are wanting. If we don't like what someone sayes ... then we'll simply scroll down to the next post ... no hard feelings and move on. Most people on this forum are mature enough to have a spirited discussion without losing it! I say .. SCREAM FOR IT ... !!!

My impression of the Matrix forum was allways that it is a support forum for us, the gamers, but a support forum for the developers as well, in an effort to produce the best war games possible in today's RTS/3D infested world. Every post I read here (with a very few exceptions) was allways with the best intentions to help Matrix create another title that will stay on the hard drive for a long long time, without any need to upgrade our computers.

That's why we should all shout keep up the good work!

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)

Post #: 57

Countersheet Screenshots - 2/25/2004 8:51:05 PM

carnifex

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For anyone wondering or wanting to see what the original Empires in Arms boardgame counters look like, here are some links:

EmpiresInArms_AH1.jpg
EmpiresInArms_AH2.jpg
EmpiresInArms_AH3.jpg
EmpiresInArms_AH4.jpg
EmpiresInArms_AH5.jpg

More countersheets HERE

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Post #: 58

RE: Countersheet Screenshots - 2/26/2004 4:55:09 AM

Sonny

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Ah, those were the days!

That post was almost as good as the screen shots.

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Post #: 59

RE: Countersheet Screenshots - 2/26/2004 8:51:06 AM

Von Rom

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Joined: 5/12/2000
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Well, I'm a die-hard counter person just like the next guy.

And those counters were functional for a 1986 boardgame.

But surely, in this day and age of powerful computers, we can at least have counters that exhibit a little colour and flair, without stepping beyond the 2D boundary.

Case in point:

2D Napoleonic Counters:

Or there is always the 2D "statutesque" style of units that MTW used. Imagine moving chess-like pieces on the map that has a Napoleonic flair to them:

I think any number of solutions may be found that keeps the game grounded in tradition, while still adding a little something extra for those who like eye candy.

Cheers!

< Message edited by Von Rom -- 2/26/2004 3:51:06 PM >

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Post #: 60