RockinHarry
Posts: 2963
Joined: 1/18/2001
From: Germany
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AmmoSgt
quote:
ORIGINAL: RockinHarry
Hi there,
would like to hear some opinions on the Mixed rifle concept:
Purpose: The current SPWAW game system produces a high degree of suppression for every shot that an infantry unit fires at an enemy infantry unit. Normally if one desires to lessen the effects of suppression in the game, one could tweak the preferences (Rout/Rally setting), but this then works for all units in the game, not just the infantry. Normally an infantry unit has upto 4 weapons available to shoot at another infantry unit (diregarding non infantry units for this topic). Dependent upon range it´s mostly the slot1 primary infantry weapon (any common rifle) and slot2 secondary weapon (mostly LMG). For each shot fired from these weapons, normally 2-3 suppression points are added to the attacked infantry (not regarding other factors that might cause additional suppression, like losses, ect.). This mounts to very high suppression quickly, if a number of units use both weapons (slot1 rifle / slot2 LMG) on the attacked infantry unit repeatedly. It too oftentimes happens f.e that dug-in infantry is routed out of its entrenchments, by accumulating dozens of suppression points and finally,..receiving just a single kill causes the unit to pull back!
As said, I speak of suppression accumulated by medium to long range infantry shooting and NOT artillery ect.!
The effects of shots are resolved (suppression+possible kills) for each weapon slot, one after another. No news you say.
However, something interesting actually happens all the time mostly unnoticed: Assuming the first shot (Rifles slot1) makes a moving enemy infantry unit to get pinned, so what happens with the following shot (LMG slot2)?! The shot is resolved on the "pinned" unit with much less effect! Normally one would think that an infantry squad would "volley" fire its infantry weapons and not one after another. Why should the most effective squad weapon (the LMG) fire, when the "target" can not be effectively hit anymore?
Well that´s how SPWAW works, as it´s not a real time game, so the slot2 LMG mostly causes just 2-3 more suppression points, instead of doing the damage you would expect from this weapon, may it be a BAR or a MG42.
So the net effect in the game is that the LMG in slot2 does little and lots of unnecessary suppression is caused with above mentioned unrealistic effects!
Well, one solution would be to abandon the slot2 LMG weapon and merge it into a new weapon that resembles a rifle and LMG combined, with approriate firepower and range and then put into slot1! Unfortunately we can´t really finetune this new weapon with regard to the single real weapons performances. Example: Assuming a US infantry unit with crew of 10 has 9 M1 Garand rifles and 1 Bar LMG combined into a single weapon. Would it have considerable more or less firepower than a german squad of 10 with 9 K98k rifles and 1 LMG MG42??
I found that just raising HE kill for the combined (from now on "Mixed") weapon to 2, while preserving accuracy/range ect. ratings, is sufficient to simulate the effects of volley fire with rifles and LMG combined. That means higher probable kills with the first shot, but overall less suppression. Off course it depends still upon several factors, like terrain, enemy unit cautiously moving or moving fast ect. on how many kills can be achieved. The range is from no effect (targeted unit rolls a "saving throw"), to "wiping out" (enemy unit caught in the open while moving full speed!). The effect is similar to an (semi) automatic rifle like M1 Garand or SVT40 fired by 10 guys in volley fire. In fact the "Mixed" weapon has the same firepower/stats like the M1 Garand. The problem is, when you raise HE kill to say 3, then kills raise to unacceptable levels!
With the current unified "mixed" weapon stats, it means that all nations that use the "Mixed" weapon for infantry units in slot1 have roughly the same squad firepower than US squads equipped with the M1 Garand! However, other factors play a large role too! For example experience and leader skills, as well as whether the unit is given some "fire control" or even "range finder" ratings!
Ok. I play tested the new "Mixed" weapon and the overall effect is, dependent upon other unit skills/stats, that enemy infantry losses are roughly the same, but the kill range is wider! Also overall suppression is decreased, helping dug in units to hold their ground longer and help advancing units to keep moving! An additional effects is that infantry battles play almost twice as fast and chances for units to get into close combat are increased.J
The whole thing, as said is experimental and the weapons will only be available to scenario designers, if they wish to try this alternative method.
Don´t know whether many people would be willing to abandon their (largely ineffective) slot 2 MG42/BAR/Bren...or whatever LMG, but it´s worth a try for user made scenarios at least.
Note: Turn based games like Combat Leader uses the "Mixed/Volley/Volume" like fire resolution as well as "Combat Mission", which, real time though, computes fire effects of squad weapons (rifle/LMG/sub machine gun) as single volley.
I see potential here for some good things, but I also see some problems. You say a HE Kill of 3 for the mixed weapons is to high , but under this system what basically happens is that nations armed with bolt action rifles achive parity with nations armed with semi auto's while the nations/ units armed with semi auto's basically lose any LMG / Auto Rifle fire power. May I suggest that , perhaps, If HE Kill of 2 is the upper working limit for mixed weapons, that those nation or units already armed with semi auto's with a HE Kill of 2 keep thier LMG/BAR/ BREN in slot 2, as you say they aren't all that terrible effective in slot two so keeping them would not be that big of a deal firepower wise and it would allow for some differentation between bolt action armed squads and semi auto armed squads. This way German FJ's for example with FJ42's? FG43's would have at least a little more firepower than K98 armed Infantry ? I might also suggest that in situations where you would have to make radical distortions in range , say like MP44 armed Germans that the LMG stay in slot 2. I think this mixed system can work for MOST infantry , since MOST infantry is armed with bolt action rifles firing basically the same caliber and type ammo as the squad automatic weapon. But I also think there are enough exceptions that are problematic that some flexibility should be concidered. Another thought I have is that under the mixed weapons system it looks like the squad would lose firepower with casulities at a somewhat higher rate than in the current system . Example in the mixed system essentially the HE Kill of the squad LMG is going to be reduced with each casulity, where in the current system it would not , only losing the fiepower of a rifle. In British units for example , the mixed weapons system would make a Mixed Bren equlvalent to a Mixed MG 42 is this desirable ?
On the up side ,in at least US units especially it would allow room for more Rifle Grenades. And since the M9A1 AT Rifle grenade has basically the same warhead as the Bazooka round , and since the US had the M7 booster charge to extend rifle grenade ranges out to 300 yards this could make room for some significant increase in US Squad fire power if the Rifle Grenades are properly modeled ( info on US rifle Grenades and especially the M7 booster device is available in the US Army Standard Ordnance catalog on the Carlise Army barrack library website. The M7 is listed with the Standard infantry rifle ammo , The Grenades are listed together in a different section) .
I think mixed weapons has potential , but it would need to be used with flexibility, especially if the reason behind it is to raise the effectiveness of the squad automatic weapon , the purpose certainly would not be achieved in those cases where an inflexible application would completely remove the firepower of the squad weapon, and in the cases of SMG/ MP44 troops it might lead to unnecesary range distortions. The basic Idea to open up slots for additional common infantry weapons is a good one, but only if those additional weapons are properly modeled. I have always wanted to see US rifle Grenades especially the M9A1 AT rifle grenade properly modeled, it was a very effective tank killer and commonly issued and used on all US rifles inculding the M1 Carbine The US Rifle Grenade launcher could and was usually mounted on at least 1 rifle in every squad ( sometimes more depending on the tactical situation )and had a pretty accurate sight calibrated for both the grenade launcher blank round and the blank round + M7 Booster Pellet.
Thanks for feedback Ammo Sgt!:)
quote:
ORIGINAL: AmmoSgt
I see potential here for some good things, but I also see some problems. You say a HE Kill of 3 for the mixed weapons is to high , but under this system what basically happens is that nations armed with bolt action rifles achive parity with nations armed with semi auto's while the nations/ units armed with semi auto's basically lose any LMG / Auto Rifle fire power. May I suggest that , perhaps, If HE Kill of 2 is the upper working limit for mixed weapons, that those nation or units already armed with semi auto's with a HE Kill of 2 keep thier LMG/BAR/ BREN in slot 2, as you say they aren't all that terrible effective in slot two so keeping them would not be that big of a deal firepower wise and it would allow for some differentation between bolt action armed squads and semi auto armed squads. This way German FJ's for example with FJ42's? FG43's would have at least a little more firepower than K98 armed Infantry ? I might also suggest that in situations where you would have to make radical distortions in range , say like MP44 armed Germans that the LMG stay in slot 2.
Yes, at first sight all infantry squads using the "Mixed Rifle" in slot1 would be equalized to have roughly the same firepower, but it still depends (or even more so) upon other unit stats and unit experience/leader stats in particular! Slot1 infantry squad weapons normally are of the prime infantry type, meaning that their final effect/fire power needs to be rolled for, depending on numerous variables. That means, f.e a US infantry squad with low experience might provide less overall firepower ("M1 Garand/BAR") than a high experience german squad ("K98/MG42") or vice versa! Off course, a SCENARIO DESIGNER could add (or leave) a LMG when there´s already a semi auto rifle in slot1, but for how many nations infantry squads (beside US) would that apply?? All FG42 equipped german paras would be
an extreme exception and even in late war I don´t think there were many "exclusively" with Stg44 assault rifle equipped german infantry, that justifies putting the thing in slot1! Same goes for russians with a SVT40 rifle in slot1.
quote:
ORIGINAL: AmmoSgt
I think this mixed system can work for MOST infantry , since MOST infantry is armed with bolt action rifles firing basically the same caliber and type ammo as the squad automatic weapon. But I also think there are enough exceptions that are problematic that some flexibility should be concidered. Another thought I have is that under the mixed weapons system it looks like the squad would lose firepower with casulities at a somewhat higher rate than in the current system . Example in the mixed system essentially the HE Kill of the squad LMG is going to be reduced with each casulity, where in the current system it would not , only losing the fiepower of a rifle. In British units for example , the mixed weapons system would make a Mixed Bren equlvalent to a Mixed MG 42 is this desirable ?
Yes, the squad would loose some firepower with each loss of a crew member, but SPWAW does not really models the loss of the LMG section. Off course shots are removed for subsequent weapon slots when a squad takes losses. Loosing the firepower of a single rifle is very relative, as slot1 weapon firepower depends on a die roll! If it rolls low, then it could mean just 2-3 riflemen are busy with the LMG gunner reloading/inactive, while a high roll could mean all crewmembers participate in the firefight with all guns blazing. Also, if the LMG is fired second after the rifles (either AIP or in OP fire phase), is does oftenly with less effect anyways, as the target (infantry) already went to ground (pinned) by preceeding same units rifle fire. How much LMG firepower would there be lost?
quote:
ORIGINAL: AmmoSgt
On the up side ,in at least US units especially it would allow room for more Rifle Grenades. And since the M9A1 AT Rifle grenade has basically the same warhead as the Bazooka round , and since the US had the M7 booster charge to extend rifle grenade ranges out to 300 yards this could make room for some significant increase in US Squad fire power if the Rifle Grenades are properly modeled ( info on US rifle Grenades and especially the M7 booster device is available in the US Army Standard Ordnance catalog on the Carlise Army barrack library website. The M7 is listed with the Standard infantry rifle ammo , The Grenades are listed together in a different section) .
Hehe...yes, the rifle grenades! AFAIK V8.2x will have a couple more available in the weapons list (US+germany), although due to the lack of unit slots (in particular for germany) a scenario maker needs to give them to infantry units himself optionally. It was one of my suggestions to add more types of rifle grenades to US and Germany OOB too. Hope they´ll be all in.:)
quote:
ORIGINAL: AmmoSgt
I think mixed weapons has potential , but it would need to be used with flexibility, especially if the reason behind it is to raise the effectiveness of the squad automatic weapon , the purpose certainly would not be achieved in those cases where an inflexible application would completely remove the firepower of the squad weapon, and in the cases of SMG/ MP44 troops it might lead to unnecesary range distortions. The basic Idea to open up slots for additional common infantry weapons is a good one, but only if those additional weapons are properly modeled. I have always wanted to see US rifle Grenades especially the M9A1 AT rifle grenade properly modeled, it was a very effective tank killer and commonly issued and used on all US rifles inculding the M1 Carbine The US Rifle Grenade launcher could and was usually mounted on at least 1 rifle in every squad ( sometimes more depending on the tactical situation )and had a pretty accurate sight calibrated for both the grenade launcher blank round and the blank round + M7 Booster Pellet.
Yeah, generally agree on your concerns. Beside the US, the germans had a nice assortment of rifle grenade types during course of the war too. Would love to see them all in as well.:)
Beside all that, I need to mention again, that it´s all up to scenario makers using the "Mixed Rifle" weapons for their purpose. No infantry in any V8.2x OOB will have the "Mixed Rifle" in slot1 (or any other) by default!
Might be, the "Mixed Rifle" won´t make it into the V8.2x OOBs at all. We´ll see.
Thanks ALL for feedback!:)
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RE: Mixed rifle concept - 
I can follow instructions, please let me know.!!
)
Still,..all these things need to proof there valueness in the game and at last it´s still a matter of preference in using "different" stuff or not. For me it´s fun to try things in practice, as can be seen "real world" knowledge, as good as it is, oftentimes is difficult to work into the SPWAW game mechanics! There´s still lots of possible approaches....
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