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Best Yank division? - 10/8/2001 5:29:00 PM   
wulfir


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Status: offline 		Question: Is there any US division (ETO) considered to be above the others? By performance in combat, fighting spirit, reputation or whatever. One British general (according to Citizen Soldiers) considered the 82nd Airborne Division to be the not the best US division but the best of any nation. (After the capturing of Niijmegen bridge.) There are however plenty of other units with remarkable records of the war. Would they agree to this praise by the British general? Would you agree?

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- 10/8/2001 6:05:00 PM   
BvB


Posts: 187
Joined: 10/7/2001
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Status: offline 		I won't disagree with that statement as it was made after the 82d's river assault under fire. I don't know that you can actually pick only one division to be so good as to be better than any other. Many have good claims for that. I WOULD NOT make 101st Airborne the best, but it sure has grabbed most of the press/publicity in it's lifetime. 82d has far more history from WWI through North Africa, Sicily and for it's 504th Regt also Italy -- all before 101st even left america. My personal favorite would be the 3d Infantry Div as I think it had the longest time in combat of any US division: North Africa, Sicily, Italy, Southern France and on through Germany. The airborne units were well trained and highly motivated, but did not have near as much time in the line as most units. It would do it's part in a major operation and then go into reserve. It annoyed me that in Desert Storm 101st & XVIII Abn Corps got all the press yet faced almost no opposition as compared to the marines or army VII Corps. Anyway, I've rambled enough! BvB

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- 10/8/2001 8:11:00 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

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Status: offline 		I am going to put the 1st Special Service Force up to take occolades.
Of course partly because it was half Canadian, but also because they fought hard kicked butt and never lost any ground. Did the impossible, did that more than once and were capable of almost any mission profile. So what if they were not a full division. They were likely worth as much as a full division in combat. The germans sure thought there was more of them than there really was half the time.

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Post #: 3
- 10/8/2001 8:24:00 PM   
valdor17

 

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Status: offline 		For infantry divisions the 1st Infantry (Big Red One) was considered pretty good. Among armored divisions I would have to give the edge to the 2d Armored Division (Hell on Paper--oops, that would be Hell on Wheels )--although the 4th Armored Division would be a close second. (Based mainly on 2 ADs longer combat service--it landed at Casablanca in Nov '42 and fought throughout the war. 4 AD landed at Utah Beach on 11 July and fought throughout the European Campaign.) Of course, by limiting it to the ETO you leave out the famous (or infamous!) 1st Mardiv (Marine Division.)

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Post #: 4
- 10/8/2001 11:33:00 PM   
kurtbj

 

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Status: offline 		I wouldn't argue with the statement that the 82nd Airborne was possibly the best Yank unit but don't agree with the Brit generals comment that it was the best division from any nation in the whole war (or did I misread that bit?). It sounds a cliche but I think the honour would have to go to one of the German units who served for the duration of the war on several fronts in extreme conditions.... possibly DAS REICH seeing as they received more Knights Crosses than any other unit (I think). Or maybe one of the other German units like GrossDeutschland.

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- 10/8/2001 11:59:00 PM   
Redleg


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Status: offline 		First Special Service Force was indeed a truly remarkable unit. Very highly trained, never failed a mission. Etc, etc.

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Post #: 6
- 10/9/2001 12:13:00 AM   
chief


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From: Haines City FL, USA
Status: offline 		Don't forget the Japanese Americans of the 42nd (Go for Broke) Division, it was one of the most decorated units in WW2, ask the boys from Texas who were relieved by them in the Bulge.....

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Post #: 7
- 10/9/2001 12:46:00 AM   
valdor17

 

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quote:

Originally posted by chief:
Don't forget the Japanese Americans of the 42nd (Go for Broke) Division, it was one of the most decorated units in WW2, ask the boys from Texas who were relieved by them in the Bulge.....
I believe you are referring to the 442d Regimental Combat Team which rescued the 1st Battalion, 141st Infantry Regiment (which was from the Texas National Guard) in the Vosges Mountains in late October of '44--a little before the Battle of the Bulge.

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Post #: 8
- 10/9/2001 4:06:00 AM   
RUsco

 

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From: Grand Rapids,MI USA
Status: offline 		Old Hickory, the 30th Infantry Division. Consisting of the 117th, 119th and 120th Inf. Regiments with the 30th Reonnaissance troop, the 105th Engineer Battalion and 30th Div Artillary. Attatched was the 823rd Tank Destroyer(T)Battalion,the 743rd Tank Battalion and the 531st AAA Battalion. Aty Mortain, France the 30th fought off the 1st SS Panzer Div., The remenants of the 2nd SS Panzer Div, that ws filled up with elements of the 17th SS Panzer Grenadier Div., the 2nd Panzer Div, and the 116th panzer Div. At this time the 30th was 1,000 men short. The German nickname for the 30th was "Mr. Roosevelts SS".

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- 10/9/2001 4:51:00 AM   
AmmoSgt

 

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Status: offline 		Division hmmm 34th Inf Div Texas ( BigT) which later incorporated the 44Deuce ( Go For Broke) but the US had so many truely Great Divisions it is hard to pick ..I think maybe there might just be a Few Marine Divisions in the Pacific that should be considered .. and Yes The 82nd and the 101st would be on the list ... I disagree with whoever posted the Germans have a Horse in this race ..since they tended to lose alot, and any Divison that actually surrendered probably doesn't qualify as great.

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Post #: 10
- 10/9/2001 6:06:00 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

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Status: offline 		Had the pleasure of watching the film "Go For Broke" as well as reading about a black armour unit in Patton's army (dont recall unit number off hand). What both illustrated is the north american (yeah canada has a similar skeleton in her closet)habit of sponsoring lofty ideals but having to indulge all to often, racial biases that spurn the honest patriotic support of their own people merely based on cultural/ethnic origins. This might be happening even now with the non christian non white as hell citizenry. And I think the only losers in the curret climate will be once again the unfortunate US citizens that suffer hate from brain dead masses that dont think before they hate. Both the units I mentioned gave some of the best performances during the war. And its a shame they likely spent additional blood just to placate fears they werent "true americans".

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- 10/9/2001 6:15:00 AM   
AmmoSgt

 

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Status: offline 		The Red Ball Express ... that made so much of what happened in the ETO possible was predominately Black .. their profesonalism, their sense of mission orientation, their courage, thier iniative, and their good old fashion hardcore solidering is what got a very difficult and dangerious job done ...
Driving a 35 ton lowboy tank transporter with 40 tons of artilery ammo as fast as possible over damaged and possibly mined roads in the dark with only blackout lights ..is not for the faint of heart ...

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Post #: 12
- 10/9/2001 6:56:00 AM   
wulfir


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quote:

Originally posted by Baron von Beergut:
My personal favorite would be the 3d Infantry Div as I think it had the longest time in combat of any US division: North Africa, Sicily, Italy, Southern France and on through Germany. The airborne units were well trained and highly motivated, but did not have near as much time in the line as most units.
Agreed, the 3rd was in the thick of it quite a lot. I’m a little surprised you didn’t mention the 28th Infantry Division. They came from Pennsylvania (I think) and saw some really heavy fighting in 1944.
quote:

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1:
I am going to put the 1st Special Service Force up to take occolades.
1st SSF, interesting – I was under the impression that they had been somewhat unsuccessful because they were disbanded. I guess I was wrong. Now I will for sure have to get some details on this unit. Isn’t there a modern Canadian (elite) unit with a similar name?
quote:

Originally posted by Valdor:
For infantry divisions the 1st Infantry (Big Red One) was considered pretty good.
Among armored divisions I would have to give the edge to the 2d Armored Division (Hell on Paper--oops, that would be Hell on Wheels
1st Infantry and 2nd Armored, I suspected these two would show up. North Africa, Sicily, Normandy and all the way to Germany. Something of the senior workhorses, I think. 2nd Armored had some kind of a race with the US 83rd Infantry Division in 1945 but I belive they lost it. Good units anyway, no doubt.
quote:

Originally posted by Kurt:
It sounds a cliche but I think the honour would have to go to one of the German units who served for the duration of the war on several fronts in extreme conditions.... possibly DAS REICH seeing as they received more Knights Crosses than any other unit (I think). Or maybe one of the other German units like GrossDeutschland.
The Germans often fought magnificently; time and time again they displayed their ability for war. I believe that they remained superior on the tactical level until the very final stages of the war and some very savage fighting was required to defeat them. This however only speaks to the advantage of the troops who faced them. The allied soldiers might not have had the equipment or training the Germans had but what they had was good enough. I also don’t think the numerical superiority of the allies would have counted for much if the troops themselves had not had the proper fighting spirit. (Also, I asked about US units because I pretty much know the top German and British Commonwealth ones.) About the British general, I don’t have the book in front of me now, but I think he said something like:
“I am proud to shake hands with the commander of the best division in the modern world”, right after the Paratroopers of 504th PIR, US 82nd Abn Div made that daring attack on the Nijmegen bridge. I guess they made quite an impression on him.
quote:

Originally posted by chief:
Don't forget the Japanese Americans of the 42nd (Go for Broke) Division, it was one of the most decorated units in WW2, ask the boys from Texas who were relieved by them in the Bulge.....
Yes, I have heard about them (442nd regiment). A fearsome bunch! I have even heard that they were the most decorated American unit in WWII, not sure about it though but I bet knowing that they were on the other side of No Mans Land put few smiles on the Germans facing them.
quote:

Originally posted by RUsco:
Old Hickory, the 30th Infantry Division.
Aty Mortain, France the 30th fought off the 1st SS Panzer Div., The remenants of the 2nd SS Panzer Div, that ws filled up with elements of the 17th SS Panzer Grenadier Div., the 2nd Panzer Div, and the 116th panzer Div.
At this time the 30th was 1,000 men short.
The German nickname for the 30th was "Mr. Roosevelts SS".
Can’t argue with that. I understand the 30th Infantry Division relived the 1st Infantry Division at Mortain and was told that there wasn’t a German for hundred of miles with any fight left in him and started to relax but soon came under attack by some of the best the Germans could field. More or less alone the division faced the full fury of the German attack and though pushed to the brink of disintegration they defeated it.
quote:

Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
Division hmmm 34th Inf Div Texas ( BigT) which later incorporated the 44Deuce ( Go For Broke) but the US had so many truely Great Divisions it is hard to pick ..I think maybe there might just be a Few Marine Divisions in the Pacific that should be considered .. and Yes The 82nd and the 101st would be on the list ... I disagree with whoever posted the Germans have a Horse in this race ..since they tended to lose alot, and any Divison that actually surrendered probably doesn't qualify as great.
I really agree about the 34th Infantry Division and you are right about the Germans. After all, the question was about top US division and the Germans had no US divisions. Still I believe that the Germans, even if they lost the war and had many formations shot to pieces, had some very outstanding formations. One example is the 1st Fallschirmjaeger Division who made life miserable for several allied units, among them the US 34th Inf Div. My own favourite American units are the 34th Infantry Division and the 79th Infantry Division. Saw some hard fighting on slightly "forgotten" fronts – not always successful. A lot of mud, blood and death and little glamour.
The 83rd Infantry Division is another interesting unit. Perhaps not a very long combat career but with an (healthy) aggressive attitude. Also, I hope no Yank feel insulted by the fact that I am making comments of various units that fought in the Second World War. I should perhaps point out that I feel we owe very much to the troops that defeated Nazi Germany and that not a single one was Swedish.

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Post #: 13
- 10/9/2001 8:37:00 AM   
chief


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From: Haines City FL, USA
Status: offline 		Valdor:
I stand corrected on the 442nd....just had a senior moment or two or. . . . ....

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Post #: 14
- 10/9/2001 8:49:00 AM   
BruceAZ


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quote:

Originally posted by Wulfir:
Question: Is there any US division (ETO) considered to be above the others? By performance in combat, fighting spirit, reputation or whatever. One British general (according to Citizen Soldiers) considered the 82nd Airborne Division to be the not the best US division but the best of any nation. (After the capturing of Niijmegen bridge.) There are however plenty of other units with remarkable records of the war. Would they agree to this praise by the British general? Would you agree?
I would say the 1st Marine Division for the Pacfic Theater and the 442RCT in the European Theater. British would would be Highlanders 50th Infantry Division or maybe their 7th Armored Division (Desert Rats). Canadian 2nd at Deippe (spell?) has probally the most heroes... Of course, I may be showing a little favoritism... Bruce
Semper Fi

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Post #: 15
- 10/9/2001 10:09:00 AM   
abradley

 

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From: Naklua, Chonburi, Thailand
Status: offline 		I'd like to say a word for the 9th, it was in at the start in North Africa and Eisenhower considered it and the 1st his two best infantry divisions prior to D-Day.
The 9th was used peicemeal throught the war-it's units being attached to other divisions in places like Hurtgen Forest and the Bulge.
A good friend of mine, who served with them in the ETO, recently died and thought I speak up for him and his buddies.
Best

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Post #: 16
- 10/9/2001 1:21:00 PM   
AmmoSgt

 

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Status: offline 		abradley Salute

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Post #: 17
- 10/10/2001 12:24:00 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

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Status: offline 		Yo Wulfir
You might have already seen the briliant exploits of the 1SSF actually. History and film know them as the Tueffels brigada (my german is lacking) otherwise known as the Devils Brigade a name the Germans gave them.
They were trained for elite commando raids up in the far north then that mission profile got scrubbed. Thanks to the dogged efforts of the CO they were given the impoosible task of scaling Mount La Difensa in Italy (spelling there approximate as well). To prove the unit was worth something to somebody They trashed the Germans positions quite nicely. They went on to fight numerous impossible attacks and never lost a single iota of ground once they took it. What is comical is the unit was formed from misfits losers and the crud of every US unit available and the cream of the crop with only volunteers being allowed from Canadian units. But the mix was destined to make one of WW2's most oustanding units. There wasnt much the unit couldnt do. Man for man each one of them was worth 10 men in any other unit in the world.

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Post #: 18
- 10/10/2001 12:49:00 AM   
nexus

 

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Status: offline 		i think gen. model (one of the german´s best) said,that the units the germans´s faced at arnheim were some of the best he encountered. he said something like "greatest soldiers in this war" and this from a german generals mouth. so i think there must be some truth in this.

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Post #: 19
- 10/10/2001 12:53:00 AM   
wulfir


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quote:

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1:
What is comical is the unit was formed from misfits losers and the crud of every US unit available and the cream of the crop with only volunteers being allowed from Canadian units. But the mix was destined to make one of WW2's most oustanding units. There wasnt much the unit couldnt do. Man for man each one of them was worth 10 men in any other unit in the world.
Cool! I take it you hold them in very high regard.

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- 10/10/2001 3:24:00 AM   
Tiger

 

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quote:

Originally posted by Wulfir:
Question: Is there any US division (ETO) considered to be above the others? By performance in combat, fighting spirit, reputation or whatever. One British general (according to Citizen Soldiers) considered the 82nd Airborne Division to be the not the best US division but the best of any nation. (After the capturing of Niijmegen bridge.) There are however plenty of other units with remarkable records of the war. Would they agree to this praise by the British general? Would you agree?
Sorry, have to disagree. Nobody else will, so I'll vote for the 101st.

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Post #: 21
- 10/10/2001 9:15:00 AM   
m10bob


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From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		Best U.S.Infantry:29th or 1st...best airborne:101st....best U.S.armoured:4th.....IMHO

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Post #: 22
- 10/10/2001 9:25:00 AM   
john g

 

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quote:

Originally posted by m10bob:
Best U.S.Infantry:29th or 1st...best airborne:101st....best U.S.armoured:4th.....IMHO
Glad to see someone finally mention the big red one. As I recall they were the only division to make every amphib assault in Europe. From what I have read they were a division 5 times over. For every man left at the end of the war, 4 were dead or wounded and in hospital.
thanks, John.

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Post #: 23
- 10/10/2001 10:33:00 AM   
mikhailov

 

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Status: offline 		Of course the airborne divisions were elite, as in every army. But among the infantry divisions, I would say the 1st Inf and the 9th Inf. The airborne divs and the "Big Red One" got a lot of press coverage, but the 3rd and the 9th were also excellent units. The 28th, 29th, and 30th were all very good as well. For the armored divisions, probably the 2nd and the 4th. I think what made one div better than another was the amount of previous combat experience, and the ability of the division's senior leadership. Most of the divs in this thread (1,3,9 Inf, 2 AD, and the 82 AB)saw action in the Med before D-Day, and/or had outstanding commanders (Truscott, Ridgway, Eddy, etc). For instance, the 90th Inf was pretty unreliable in Normandy, but it turned into an excellent div by the end of the war because they eventually got some good divisional commanders.

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Post #: 24
- 10/10/2001 1:08:00 PM   
wulfir


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quote:

Originally posted by Tiger:
Sorry, have to disagree. Nobody else will, so I'll vote for the 101st.
I guess a unit like the 101st is bound to have its supporters. Screaming Eagles – now that is a nickname for an airborne division!
quote:

Originally posted by nexus:
i think gen. model (one of the german´s best) said,that the units the germans´s faced at arnheim were some of the best he encountered.
The troops the Germans faced at Arnhem were without doubt very good and put up a stubborn fight, but I think they were British paratroopers from the 1st Airborne division plus a number of Poles.
quote:

Originally posted by mikhailov:
Of course the airborne divisions were elite, as in every army. But among the infantry divisions, I would say the 1st Inf and the 9th Inf. The airborne divs and the "Big Red One" got a lot of press coverage, but the 3rd and the 9th were also excellent units.
I have read that the US 1st and 9th Divisions were brought from Sicily to England because the senior leadership (Brad and Monty) wanted experienced units when they hit Northern France. In other words, they brought them to England and sent them to France because they wanted to win.

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Post #: 25
- 10/10/2001 3:02:00 PM   
Resisti


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Status: offline 		I'd go for 34th Inf.Division (Red bulls) and 442th RCT attached to the division in Italy.
Here you are some infos on the 34th: http://www.dma.state.mn.us/redbull/HISTORY/34thhistoryphotos.htm http://www.dma.state.mn.us/redbull/HISTORY/IMAGES/map-1.jpg

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Post #: 26
- 10/10/2001 6:12:00 PM   
alassi

 

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Status: offline 		Dont forget the 2nd Rangers who hit the beaches of Normandy first, at 0740 on Dog Green. That was some brave men...

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Post #: 27
- 10/10/2001 11:25:00 PM   
wulfir


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quote:

Originally posted by alassi:
Dont forget the 2nd Rangers who hit the beaches of Normandy first, at 0740 on Dog Green. That was some brave men...
Agreed, not to mention their assault on Pointe du Hoc.
I19/P5, not bad (it was known as MekB19 in my days) – home of one of Sweden’s most versatile and powerful brigades. I was in Boden too, but as a medic belonging to 3rd Company, LV7. Semper In Primis, RBS90 rules the sky!

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Post #: 28
- 10/11/2001 9:33:00 AM   
Bing

 

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From: Gaylord, MI, USA
Status: offline 		The man said "division", not RCT, or company or regiment, or an ad hoc combat unit. I vote for 82nd Airborne, then 101 AB, then as a pure Inf Div the Big Red One. Give me those Devils In Baggy Pants any day. Bing

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Post #: 29
- 10/11/2001 11:05:00 AM   
Major Ed

 

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From: Jackson, MS USA
Status: offline 		Experience tells, the 1st "Big Red One" probably had as much or more than any other US division. Also don't forget Omaha beach, it was there that the 1st and 29th showed what they were made of. As to the 1SSF, it was more a brigade sized unit. Made up of 2 regiments with 2 battalions each. Even though there is no current unit in the US military with that name, if you read the lineage of the Special Forces units each SF Group traces its history back to a company of the 1SSF. I was a member of the 20th SF Group and we traced our unit history back to a company in the 2nd Regiment, 1SSF. ----------------------- "In no other profession are the penalties for employing untrained personnel so appalling or so irrevocable as in the military." -- General of the Army Douglas MacArthur

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