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Russian Motor Rifle Companies - 3/19/2004 3:17:33 PM

Steve Wilcox

Posts: 103
Joined: 8/17/2001
From: Victoria, BC, Canada
Status: offline

Here's some Russian Motor Rifle Companies TO&E stuff, using the trusty Red Army Handbook 1939-1945 by Steven J. Zaloga and Leland S. Ness. Unfortunately there isn't as much detail as there generally is for the regular infantry units, so this one's pretty vague in places, but here's what I could find:

In a Tank Brigade's Mot Rifle Bn:

Nov 39 Mot Rifle Co: Plt (44 men w/3 LMG) x3, MMG Plt (2 MMG)
[unknown # of men per Sqd, and # of Sqd per Plt, 160 men per Co]

Aug 41 Mot Rifle Co: Plt (34 men w/4 LMG) x3, MMG Plt (2 MMG)
[unknown # of Sqd per Plt, and # of men per Sqd, 124 men per Co]

Dec 41 Mot Rifle Co: Plt (3 Sqd w/3 LMG, ATR Sec w/1 AT rifle) x3, MMG Plt (2 MMG)
[unknown # of men per Sqd/Plt, 108 men per Co]

Jul 42 Mot Rifle Co: Plt (3 Sqd w/3 LMG, ATR Sec w/1 AT rifle) x3, MMG Plt (2 MMG)
[unknown # of men per Sqd/Plt, 112 men per Co]

Nov 43 Mot Rifle Co: the unit converts to an SMG based organization (see Soviet SMG Companies thread if you're interested)

In a Motorized or Tank Division's Mot Rifle Rgt's Mot Rifle Bn:

Apr 41 Mot Rifle Co: Plt (4 Sqd w/4 LMG) x3, MMG Plt (2 MMG), Lt Mtr Sec (3 tubes)
[11 men per Sqd, 47 men per Plt, 191 men per Co]

In a Tank Division's Mot Rifle Rgt's Mot Rifle Bn:

Jul 41 Mot Rifle Co: Plt (3 Sqd w/3 LMG, Lt Mtr Sec w/1 tube) x3
[unknown # of men per Sqd/Plt, 131 men per Co]

In a Motorized Rifle Brigade's Mot Rifle Bn :

Apr 42 Mot Rifle Co: Plt (4 Sqd w/4 LMG) x3, MMG Plt (2 MMG)
[unknown # of men per Sqd/Plt/Co]

In a Mechanized Brigade's Mot Rifle Bn :

All I can find out is that the Mech Bde's Mot Rfl Bns "were similar to those in the motorized infantry brigade, but added a machine gun company and expanded the anti-tank rifle company by 50 per cent." (P. 83 of RAHB). No company level detail.

They do have a breakdown of weapons and personnel for the Sep 42 and Feb 43 Mech Bde's Mot Rfl Bns, although not for the companies, so here it is for what it's worth (I only included small arms):

Sep 42:

Men: 707
SMGs: 276
Carbines: 134
Rifles: 114
S-A Rifles: 61
LMGs: 36
MMGs: 15
ATRs: 18

Feb 43:

Men: 649
SMGs: 273
Carbines: 99
Rifles: -
S-A Rifles: 138
LMGs: 36
MMGs: 15
ATRs: 18

Apr 42: (this is the one from the Mot Rfl Bde, shown for comparison)

Men: 641
SMGs: 80
Carbines: - (no column shown)
Rifles: ?*
S-A Rifles: - (no column shown)
LMGs: 36
MMGs: 6
ATRs: 12

*There's just a question mark in the Rifles column.

So aside from the noted addition of a MG Co and the expansion of the ATR Co, the main difference appears to that the Mech Bde's Mot Bns had more SMGs than the ones in the Mot Rfl Bde. Not much to go on, but better than nothing I hope.

Post #: 1

RE: Russian Motor Rifle Companies - 3/23/2004 7:54:12 PM

Veroporo

Posts: 62
Joined: 10/20/2002
Status: offline

Thanks for this too. Hope the oob team can do good quesses for that unknown info. 3lmg really points to three squads and maybe a small command squad, who knows. Don't know about those mechs. Too bad soviets didn't mark everything up nicely :P

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Post #: 2

RE: Russian Motor Rifle Companies - 3/23/2004 8:46:21 PM

RockinHarry

Posts: 2963
Joined: 1/18/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline

Great info Steve!

Could you dig up something for the soviet (towed and SP) AT formations too (incl.TOE)?

How widely was the 76.2 Zis3/ USV/ and F22 USV used in AT role, regarding this actually was an artillery piece and not really AT?

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RE: Russian Motor Rifle Companies - 3/24/2004 12:10:33 AM

Steve Wilcox

Posts: 103
Joined: 8/17/2001
From: Victoria, BC, Canada
Status: offline

Glad you guys liked the info.

Hi RockinHarry, I've started digging for the Towed/SP AT stuff. Is it just the info at the Plt/Bty level that you want, or do you want it for the bigger formations, too? I'll try to find out re: the 76.2mm guns.

(in reply to RockinHarry)

Post #: 4

RE: Russian Motor Rifle Companies - 3/25/2004 5:36:31 PM

RockinHarry

Posts: 2963
Joined: 1/18/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve Wilcox

Glad you guys liked the info.

Hi RockinHarry, I've started digging for the Towed/SP AT stuff. Is it just the info at the Plt/Bty level that you want, or do you want it for the bigger formations, too? I'll try to find out re: the 76.2mm guns.

Thanks Steve!

I would be very much interested in the platoon/bty (or company) level OOB! I think I have most divisional level OOB and TOE at hand already.

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RE: Russian Motor Rifle Companies - 3/25/2004 10:48:35 PM

John David

Posts: 373
Joined: 3/21/2002
From: Montreal, Quebec
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve Wilcox

Glad you guys liked the info.

Hi RockinHarry, I've started digging for the Towed/SP AT stuff. Is it just the info at the Plt/Bty level that you want, or do you want it for the bigger formations, too? I'll try to find out re: the 76.2mm guns.

I'd be interested as well Steve, as I'm sure the OOB guys would as well. Thanks for the research your doing!

JD

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Post #: 6

RE: Russian Motor Rifle Companies - 3/28/2004 12:04:43 AM

Steve Wilcox

Posts: 103
Joined: 8/17/2001
From: Victoria, BC, Canada
Status: offline

Hi guys, here's the Russian Towed/SP AT Formation stuff. "RAHB" stands for Red Army Handbook. I tried to get as much Plt/Bty detail as I could find, but it's vague in a few places.

Russian Towed/SP AT Formations
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For Rifle Divisions:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sep 39
Inf Bn's AT Plt: 2 x 45mm AT
Inf Rgt's AT Bty: 6 x 45mm AT
Rfl Div's AT Bn: 18 x 45mm AT

Apr 41
Inf Bn's AT Plt: 2 x 45mm AT
Inf Rgt's AT Bty: 3 x Plt (2 x 45mm AT)
Rfl Div's AT Bn: 3 x Bty (6 x 45mm AT)

These formations appear to be the same as in Sep 39, but a more detailed breakdown is given for the Apr 41 AT Bty and AT Bn.

Jul 41
Inf Rgt's AT Bty: 3 x Plt (2 x 45mm AT)
Rfl Div's AT Bn and Inf Bn's AT Plt removed at this time.

Dec 41
Inf Rgt AT Bty: 3 x Plt (2 x 45mm AT)
Rfl Div's AT Bn: 3 x Bty (4 x 57mm AT in theory, usually 45mm AT in practice)

Mar 42
Inf Rgt AT Bty: 3 x Plt (2 x 45mm AT)
Rfl Div's AT Bn: 3 x Bty (4 x 45mm AT)

Dec 42
Inf Bn's AT Plt: 2 x 45mm AT
Inf Rgt's AT Bty: 3 x Plt (2 x 45mm AT)
Rfl Div's AT Bn: 3 x Bty (4 x 45mm AT)

Dec 44
Inf Bn's AT Plt: 2 x 45mm AT
Inf Rgt's AT Bty: 3 x Plt (2 x 57mm AT)
Rfl Div's AT Bn: 3 x Bty (4 x 76mm gun)
Gds Rfl Div's AG Bn (instead of towed AT Bn): 16 x SU-76
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For Tank Brigades:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nov 39 Tk Bde's Mot Rfl Bn's AT Plt: 3 x 45mm AT

Aug 41 Tk Bde's Mot Rfl Bn's AT Co: 4 x Plt (2 x45mm AT) (replaces the AT Plt)

Dec 41: Tk Bde's Mot Rfl Bn's AT Co removed.

Jul 42 Tk Bde's AT Bty: 4 x 76mm gun

Nov 43 Tk Bde's Mot Rfl (SMG) Bn's AT Bty: 4 x 45mm AT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For Tank Divisions/Motorized Divisions:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Apr 41 Tk/Mot Div's Mot Rfl Rgt's Mot Rfl Bn's AT Plt: 2 x 45mm AT

Apr 41 Mot Div's AT Bn's AT Bty: 6 x 45mm AT

Jul 41 Tk Div's Mot Rfl Rgt's AT Bty: 6 x 45mm AT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For Tank Corps:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Apr 42 Tk Corps Mot Rfl Bde's Mot Rfl Bn's AT Bty: 4 x 45mm AT

Jan 43 Tk Corps AG Rgt*:
17 x SU-76
8 x SU-122

Apr 43 Tk Corps TD Arty Rgt: 20 x 45mm AT

May 43 Tk Corps TD Arty Bn: 12 x 76mm gun or 85mm

May 43 Tk Corps AG Rgt*: 12 x SU-152 (replaces the SU-76/SU-122 AG Rgt)

Aug 43 Tk Corps towed formations (TD Arty Rgt and Bn) replaced by:
AG Rgt*: 21 x SU-76
AG Rgt*: 16 x SU-122

Jan 44 Tk Corps also had 16 x 57mm AT (no clue as to organization or formation type)

Feb 44 Tk Corps AG Rgts all become 21-vehicle Rgts*, ie:
1 x HQ Vehicle
4 x Bty (5 x vehicle)

*See Assault Gun Regiments section.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For Mech Corps:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sep 42 Mech Corps Mech Bde's Mot Rfl Bn's AT Bty: 4 x 45mm AT

Sep 42 Mech Corps AT Arty Rgt: ? (no details given)

Jan 43 Mech Corps Lt SP Arty Rgt: 25 x SU-76

Jan 43 Mech Corps Mixed SP Arty Rgt:
1 x HQ SU-76
4 x SU-76 Bty (4 x SU-76)
2 x SU-122 Bty (4 x SU-122)

Apr 43 Mech Corps AT Arty Rgt renamed as TD Arty Rgt.

May 43 Mech Corps AT Bn: 12 x 76mm gun or 85mm

Aug 43 Mech Corps SP component redefined as 3 Rgts*:
21 x SU-76
16 x SU-85
12 x SU-152

Jan 44 Mech Corps: added 16 x 57mm AT.

Feb 44 Mech Corps AG Rgts all become 21-vehicle AG Rgts*

Feb 44 Mech Corps TD Arty Rgt (the former AT Arty Rgt) is rearmed with 76mm ZiS-3 guns and the separate AT Bn is removed.

*See Assault Gun Regiments section.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For Tank Armies:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Apr 43 Tk Army's AT Rgt: 20 x 76mm gun

Apr 43 Tk Army's AG Rgt*:
9 x SU-76,
12 x SU-122

Feb 44 Tk Army's Lt AG Bde:
60 x SU-76
5 x T-70

Feb 44 Tk Army's Lt Arty Bde:
48 x 76mm gun
20 x 100mm AT

*See Assault Gun Regiments section.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Antitank Brigades and Regiments:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Apr 41 AT Bde: 2 x AT Rgt
AT Rgt:
2 x AT Bn: 3 x Bty (4 x 76mm gun)
2 x AT Bn: 3 x Bty (4 x 85mm AA used in the AT role)
1 x AT Bn: 3 x Bty (4 x 107mm gun in theory, 76mm in practice)
1 x AA Bn: 2 x Bty (4 x 37mm AA)

Ten of these were ordered created in Apr 41 and another after the German invasion. "The bulk of the brigades were disbanded in the Autumn of 1941 and reformed into separate AT regiments. The last of these brigades was finally disbanded in March 1942." RAHB page119.

"In late June and early July the Stavka ordered the formation of twenty additional AT regiments," (I take it of the above type of AT Rgt?) "but these large formations proved difficult to raise quickly." (so did they ever get raised?) "In response fifteen more regiments were ordered activated in July." RAHB page 119. See below:

Jul 41 Separate AT Rgt: 5 x AT Bty (4 x 85mm AA, due to shortage of 76mm gun)

Fifteen of these were raised and "All these regiments were lost in October 1941 in the battles outside Moscow." RAHB page 119. Yet in Jan 42 seventeen of this type of formation show up on the AT unit chart on page 127. (shrug)

Aug 41 Separate AT Rgt:
2 x Bty (4 x 85mm AA) and
2 x Bty (4 x 45mm AT or 37mm AA)

Thirty-six of these were raised in the period from August to October 1941.

Oct 41 Separate AT Rgt:
5 x AT Bty (4 x 76mm gun)
1 x AA Bty (4 x 25/37mm AA)

"Only one regiment was formed with this TO&E but nine other regiments were converted to this organization from the older AT brigades." RAHB page 119.

Jan 42: Types and numbers of Separate AT Rgts at this time:

9 had 20 x 76mm gun and 4 x 37mm AA
17 had 20 x 85mm AA
23 had 8 x 45mm AT and 8 x 85mm AA

Jan 42: Types and numbers of AT Bdes at this time:

1 had 48 x 76mm gun, 48 x 85mm AA, 24 x 107mm gun, and 16 x 37mm AA

Apr 42 Separate AT Rgt:
5 x Bty: 2 x Plt (2 x 76mm gun, 2 x ATR, 1 LMG)

"Provision was also made for the addition of a sixth battery." RAHB page 120

Apr-May 42 (Infantry) TD Bde's AT Arty Rgt:
4 x Hvy Bty (4 x 76mm gun)
3 x Lt Bty (4 x 45mm AT)
1 x AA Bty (4 x 37mm AA)

Twenty-six were formed in 1942 (25 in Apr-May and 1 later). By Jan 43 there were 13 left, by mid-1943 only six, and the last one was disbanded at the end of the year.

May 42 Separate AT Rgt: 5 x Bty: (4 x 45mm AT) and probably the same Plt structure as Apr 42.

"Production of 76mm guns was apparently still insufficient, for on 15 May a new structure was authorized, organizationally similar to the April regiment, but with fewer men and equipped with 45mm guns. At the same time the bulk of the 76mm AT regiments were redesignated as light artillery regiments but on 1 July they were redesignated again as tank-destroyer artillery regiments." RAHB page 120.

Jun 42 Separate Hvy TD Rgt: 5 x Bty (3 x 107mm gun)

Three of these were raised.

Jun 42 Separate TD Arty Bn: 3 x Bty (4 x 76mm gun)

There were four of these raised and all four were still around in Jan 43 and Jan 44, but not by Jan 45.

Summer 42 Leningrad Front variant AT Rgt:
3 x Bn: 3 x Bty (4 x 76mm gun)
1 x Bn: 3 x Bty (6 x 45mm AT)

Eleven were raised.

Nov 42 Transcaucasus Front variant AT Rgt: 4 x Bty (3 x 45mm AT)

Each gun Bty also had 2 x HMG Plt (4 x DShK .50cal) and 1 x ATR Plt (16 x ATR). Two were raised.

Nov 42: Types and numbers of AT Rgts (Separate and within AT Bdes) at this time (238 in total):

160 had the Apr 42 TO&E for 76mm guns (half had 5 x Bty and half had 6 x Bty)
65 had the May 42 TO&E for 45mm AT
3 had the Jun 42 Hvy TD Rgt TO&E
13 were local variants, ie:

11 had the Leningrad Front style
2 had the Transcaucasus Front style

Jan 43: Types and numbers of Separate AT Rgts at this time:

11 had 18 x 45mm AT and 36 x 76mm gun
64 had 20 x 45mm AT
91 had 20 x 76mm gun
3 had 15 x 107mm gun
2 had 12 x 45mm AT

Apr-Jul 43 TD Arty Bde: 2 x Hvy AT Arty Rgt, 1 x Lt AT Arty Rgt
Hvy AT Arty Rgt:
5 x Bty (4 x 76mm)
Lt AT Arty Rgt:
5 x Bty (4 x 45/57mm AT)

Apr-Jul 43 Separate AT Arty Rgt:
6 x Bty (4 x 45/57mm AT or 76mm gun)

Apr 43 AT Arty Rgt: 5 x Bty:
HQ Plt (1 x ATR)
2 x Plt (2 x 76mm gun, 1 x ATR, 1 x LMG)

Jul 43 AT Arty Rgt:
5 x Bty: 2 x Plt (2 x 76mm gun, 2 x ATR, 1 x LMG)

Jul 43 Separate AT Arty Rgt:
6 x Bty: 2 x Plt (2 x 76mm gun, 2 x ATR, 1 x LMG)

Sep 43 TD Arty Bde: 2 x AT Arty Rgt, 1 x Lt AT Arty Rgt
Hvy AT Arty Rgt:
6 x Bty: (4 x 76mm gun)
Lt AT Arty Rgt:
6 x Bty: (4 x 57mm AT)

"In September 1943 a new TO&E replaced the 45mm regiment with a 57mm regiment, with the new 57mm regiment adopting the TO&E of the 76mm regiment. Separate TO&Es were issued that expanded the 57/76mm regiment to a 6-battery (24-gun) configuration." RAHB page 126.

Sep 43 Separate AT Arty Rgt:
6 x Bty: (4 x 57mm AT or 76mm gun)

Jan 44: Types and numbers of Separate AT Rgts at this time:

11 had 20 x 45mm AT
2 had 15 x 107mm gun
9 had 18 x 45mm AT and 36 x 76mm gun
2 had 20 x 57mm AT
111 had 24 x 76mm gun

Jan 44: Types and numbers of TD Arty Bdes at this time:

37 had 20 x 45/57mm AT and 40 x 76mm gun
13 had 24 x 57mm AT and 48 x 76mm gun

Aug 44: a SP AT Rgt of 21 x SU-85 was added to fifteen of the TD Arty Bdes, but this was not completed until 1945.

Dec 44: twelve TD Arty Bdes had a 76mm AT Arty Rgt replaced with a 100mm one (16 x 100mm AT).

Jan 45: Types and numbers of TD Arty Bdes at this time:

Three TD Arty Bde appear to be on a 3 x Hvy AT Arty Rgt structure, twelve on a 2 x Lt AT Arty Rgt and 1 x Hvy AT Arty Rgt structure, and seven seem to have been on a 3 x Hvy AT Arty Rgt structure before converting one of their 76mm AT Arty Rgt (20 x 76mm gun) to a 100mm one (16 x 100mm AT), ie:

2 had 60 x 76mm gun
1 had 72 x 76mm gun
7 had 40 x 76mm gun and 16 x 100mm AT
6 had 48 x 57mm AT and 24 x 76mm gun
6 had 48 x 57mm AT and 24 x 76mm gun, and 21 SU-85

The others at this time:

11 had 20 x 45/57mm AT and 40 x 76mm gun
6 had 24 x 57mm AT and 48 x 76mm gun
2 had 24 x 57mm AT and 48 x 76mm gun, and 21 SU-85
5 had 24 x 57mm AT and 24 x 76mm gun, and 16 x 100mm AT

Jan 45: Types and number of Separate AT Rgts at this time:

2 had 20 x 45mm AT
1 had 18 x 45mm AT and 36 x 76mm gun
1 had 20 x 57mm AT
88 had 24 x 76mm gun
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Assault Gun Regiments:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dec 42-Mar 43 AG Rgt:
1 x HQ SU-76
4 x SU-76 Bty (4 x SU-76)
2 x SU-122 Bty (4 x SU-122)

Dec 42-Mar 43 AG Rgt (rarer version):
1 x HQ SU-76
2 x SU-76 Bty (4 x SU-76)
3 x SU-122 Bty (4 x SU-122)

Mar 43 Hvy AG Rgt:
1 x HQ KV-1
6 x SU-152 Bty (2 x SU-152)

Apr 43 Lt AG Rgt:
1 x HQ SU-76
4 x SU-76 Bty (5 x SU-76)

Apr 43 AG/Med AG Rgt:
1 x HQ T-34
4 x SU-122 Bty (4 x SU-122*)

*The SU-85 starts production in Aug 43 and begins to gradually replace the SU-122 in the above unit. They were also used in Separate AG Bns (12 x SU-85).

Oct 43: all AG Rgts reorganized to 4 x Bty while keeping the same number of combat vehicles as before:

Lt AG Rgt:
1 x HQ SU-76
4 x SU-76 Bty (5 x SU-76)

Med AG Rgt:
1 x HQ T-34
4 x SU-85 Bty (4 x SU-85)

Hvy AG Rgt:
1 x HQ KV-1
4 x SU-152 Bty (3 x SU-152)

Feb 44: all AG Rgts were to be reorganized to 4 x Bty (5 vehicles each), although it appears this was not completed until the end of 1944:

Lt AG Rgt:
1 x HQ SU-76
4 x SU-76 Bty (5 x SU-76)

Med AG Rgt:
1 x HQ T-34
4 x SU-85/100** Bty (5 x SU-85/100**)

Hvy AG Rgt:
1 x HQ IS-2
4 x ISU-122/152 Bty (5 x ISU-122 or ISU-152)

**The SU-100 began production in September 1944, but most SU-100s went to the AG Bdes.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Assault Gun Brigades:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Feb 44 Lt AG Bde: 3 x Lt AG Bn:
1 x HQ T-70
5 x SU-76 Bty (4 x SU-76)

Dec 44 Med AG Bde: 65 x SU-100 and 3 x SU-76

Mar 45 Hvy AG Bde: 65 x ISU-122 or ISU-152 and 3 x SU-76
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Whew! I think I'm going to give my brain a rest now.

< Message edited by Steve Wilcox -- 3/30/2004 7:58:19 AM >

(in reply to John David)

Post #: 7

RE: Russian Motor Rifle Companies - 3/28/2004 5:12:40 AM

Kevin E. Duguay

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Joined: 4/24/2002
From: Goldsboro, North Carolina
Status: offline

Truely a plethora of information! Thank you!

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Post #: 8

RE: Russian Motor Rifle Companies - 3/28/2004 5:15:36 AM

John David

Posts: 373
Joined: 3/21/2002
From: Montreal, Quebec
Status: offline

Way to go eh, you fellow crazy Canuk!

Wow, nice going Steve. It will take some time to go over all this!

This will be filed away and printed for my ever growing hardcopy binders on SPWAW!

Have a couple of your favorite beverages on me Steve!

Thanks again,

JD

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Post #: 9

RE: Russian Motor Rifle Companies - 3/28/2004 8:52:34 AM

Steve Wilcox

Posts: 103
Joined: 8/17/2001
From: Victoria, BC, Canada
Status: offline

Thanks guys!

I had to do a couple of quit edits. I'll double check things tomorrow and point out the changes.

(in reply to John David)

Post #: 10

RE: Russian Motor Rifle Companies - 3/28/2004 8:08:15 PM

Steve Wilcox

Posts: 103
Joined: 8/17/2001
From: Victoria, BC, Canada
Status: offline

Okay the changes were:

Aug 41 Tk Bde's Mot Rfl Bn's AT Co: 4 x Plt (2 x45mm AT) (replaces the AT Plt)

Dec 41: Tk Bde's Mot Rfl Bn's AT Co removed.

Nov 43 Tk Bde's Mot Rfl (SMG) Bn's AT Bty: 4 x 45mm AT

Apr 41 Tk/Mot Div's Mot Rfl Rgt's Mot Rfl Bn's AT Plt: 2 x 45mm AT

Jul 41 Tk Div's Mot Rfl Rgt's AT Bty: 6 x 45mm AT

Three were mistakes (sorry about that): 12 x 45mm AT instead of proper TO&E, a Bn where a Rgt should have been, and 3 guns instead of 2 in a Plt.

Three were just adding detail: 2 intermediate formations and saying Co instead of units.

(in reply to Steve Wilcox)

Post #: 11

RE: Russian Motor Rifle Companies - 3/29/2004 8:28:43 PM

Steve Wilcox

Posts: 103
Joined: 8/17/2001
From: Victoria, BC, Canada
Status: offline

In the Rifle Divisions section, I added a more detailed breakdown for some of the AT Bns (3 x Bty with details instead of just overall weapon count) and made sure all the formations were listed in ascending order, ie:
Inf Bn's AT Plt:
Inf Rgt's AT Bty:
Rfl Div's AT Bn:

Yes, I have no life.

< Message edited by Steve Wilcox -- 3/30/2004 7:42:10 AM >

(in reply to Steve Wilcox)

Post #: 12

RE: Russian Motor Rifle Companies - 3/30/2004 5:58:41 PM

RockinHarry

Posts: 2963
Joined: 1/18/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline

Wow, all great info Steve!

Let me check through all this now!

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Post #: 13

RE: Russian Motor Rifle Companies - 3/30/2004 7:03:42 PM

Steve Wilcox

Posts: 103
Joined: 8/17/2001
From: Victoria, BC, Canada
Status: offline

Hi RockinHarry, hope I covered what you were looking for (I used the shotgun approach and tried to cover everything that involved Towed/SP AT formations).

I just now added a note in the AT Bde/Rgt section:

Apr 42 Separate AT Rgt:
5 x Bty: 2 x Plt (2 x 76mm gun, 2 x ATR, 1 LMG)

"Provision was also made for the addition of a sixth battery." RAHB page 120

Instead of writing 5-6 x Bty, etc.

And I added "Separate" to the May 42 AT Rgt for consistency:

May 42 Separate AT Rgt: 5 x Bty: (4 x 45mm AT) and probably the same Plt structure as Apr 42.

(in reply to RockinHarry)

Post #: 14

RE: Russian Motor Rifle Companies - 3/31/2004 10:46:03 AM

Renaud

Posts: 9
Joined: 2/27/2004
Status: offline

Steve,

you made such an impressive work on the Russian OOB.... Did you translate this into a SPWaW OOB ? If yes, I would be VERY interested !

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Post #: 15

RE: Russian Motor Rifle Companies - 3/31/2004 6:41:13 PM

Wild Bill

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline

Excellent work, Steve!

This required a lot of studying (and typing!). I appreciate the information...WB

_____________________________

In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant

(in reply to Renaud)

Post #: 16

RE: Russian Motor Rifle Companies - 4/1/2004 5:15:09 PM

RockinHarry

Posts: 2963
Joined: 1/18/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve Wilcox

Hi RockinHarry, hope I covered what you were looking for (I used the shotgun approach and tried to cover everything that involved Towed/SP AT formations).

I just now added a note in the AT Bde/Rgt section:

Apr 42 Separate AT Rgt:
5 x Bty: 2 x Plt (2 x 76mm gun, 2 x ATR, 1 LMG)

"Provision was also made for the addition of a sixth battery." RAHB page 120

Instead of writing 5-6 x Bty, etc.

And I added "Separate" to the May 42 AT Rgt for consistency:

May 42 Separate AT Rgt: 5 x Bty: (4 x 45mm AT) and probably the same Plt structure as Apr 42.

Yes Steve, it�s just what I was looking for! The info also led me to some first conclusions:

the 45mm AT was more common in early war Rifle division, while the 76mm more served a dual purpose role, as light artillery AND AT gun. Very interesting.
Also in this role (dual purpose) the 76mm gun appears to be distributed more to mobile attack formations.

Another thing obviously is that the 76mm was not high priority in production and thus the 45mm gun had to serve much longer a needed.
Seems the germans noticed the AT potential of the 76mm gun much sooner than the russians did!?

However, for future scenario designs I�ll try to keep all that in mind!

Thanks again Steve!

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(in reply to Steve Wilcox)

Post #: 17

RE: Russian Motor Rifle Companies - 4/2/2004 1:51:43 AM

Steve Wilcox

Posts: 103
Joined: 8/17/2001
From: Victoria, BC, Canada
Status: offline

Thanks again guys!

Hi RockinHarry, re: AT guns, I had intended to answer the "How widely was the 76.2 Zis3/ USV/ and F22 USV used in AT role, regarding this actually was an artillery piece and not really AT?" question more directly, but hadn't had time to answer yet. So I'll do that now and add a bit to your comments:

As you've noted, the 76mm gun served both as artillery and as AT gun. It's apparently from the German use of captured Russian 76mm guns as AT guns that led to the belief in the West that these were dedicated AT guns, as opposed to artillery with a designed anti-tank capability.

They could be used in either role, but artillery was the primary one: "While not intended for anti-tank fighting, Soviet field artillery, especially the widely used ZiS-3 76.2mm divisional gun, was often called upon to fight tanks. As a result, these units were issued with armour-piercing ammunition identical to the types used in contemporary tank guns. In August 1942 a sub-calibre round also began to be issued as well. The Soviet Union also copied German shaped-charge (HEAT) ammunition. This was most commonly used with howitzers and low-velocity guns, such as the 76mm regimental gun and the M-30 122mm howitzer." RAHB page 200.

The lengthy service of the 45mm was more due to a bad decision made regarding its intended replacement: "The Red Army planned to replace the 45mm anti-tank gun with the new ZiS-2 57mm anti-tank gun in 1941. However, a controversy broke out among the Red Army's leaders over the purported thickness of German tank armour and its production was cancelled shortly after the outbreak of the war, with only 320 produced, in favour of producing new 85mm and 107mm anti-tank guns instead. As it turned out, German tank armour had been grossly exaggerated and the 85mm and 107mm anti-tank guns were much too large, heavy and expensive. Instead of the excellent 57mm ZiS-2, the Red Army had to make due with the increasingly obsolete 45mm anti-tank gun for the early years of the war." RAHB page 199.

"By late 1942 it was evident that the usefulness of the 45mm Model 1937 anti-tank gun was rapidly diminishing. The capture of German 'arrowhead' hyper-velocity armour-piercing (HVAP) ammunition led to Soviet adaptation of the technology. Called 'subcalibre' rounds by the Red Army, a new round for the 45mm Model 1937 became available in April 1942. The ZiS-2 57mm anti-tank gun was resurrected and put back into production in June 1943. However, the ZiS-2 was too large and heavy for most rifle divisions which did not have adequate motor or horse transport; as a result, the 45mm gun was modernized by developing a new barrel to give the projectile higher velocity and better penetration. Production of the 45mm Model 1942 began in 1943, eventually replacing the 45mm Model 1937 anti-tank gun." RAHB page 199-200.

I would imagine the shortage of 76mm guns for AT use was caused more by their being primarily used as divisional artillery and not being the intended replacement for the 45mm AT, as opposed to production not being a high priority, because during the war a total of 68,800 76mm field artillery pieces were made, compared to a total of 48,800 45mm AT guns (RAHB page 221). If they'd made more there wouldn't have been a shortage of them for the AT units, but I think they were probably making as many of them as they could, they just couldn't make enough to outfit both Arty and AT units, and AT units probably got second priority.

PS Hi Renaud, I haven't done a full Russian OOB yet, just my personal preference ones with the infantry re-worked to something reasonably historical. Nothing complete enough to share/inflict on my fellow SPWAWers yet.