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- 10/25/2001 1:02:00 AM

Nixk

Posts: 10
Joined: 9/24/2000
From: San Diego, Ca, USA
Status: offline

This one is a great subject, I must add my observations on recon to this.
I find that when playing the AI recon is very hard, more like the enemy units are cloaked or outright invisible.
For instance, yesterday I'm playing a hypothetical scenario German vs Japan, using the Dieppe map, Viz of 11 hexes, at noon, clear day.
My German force includes Scouts, an armored Recon force (1 Puma, one light tank) an infantry company augmented with ss units (all mechanized), engineers (mech).
Recon goes out leapfrogging all the way. Bring up the two PkwIV's with infantry support a little ways behind them, left flank, engineers with Panther G support and Flammawaggen (2), and Brumbaurs (2), left flank a platoon with the boss and mortar support.
Grief, the recon goes out stops, scouts go up the road into town, stop take a look around and see nothing.
Well you can guess what happens next. One hex away, a Japanese platoon in the middle of the road opens up and slaughters my scout squad. On the left, two hexes away, two heavy machinguns plus infantry in open terrain debouch on a halftrack after it too took a good look around.
The rest of the battle went like this every round. Move up, nothing sighted, next turn infantry, or guns one to three hexes away in clear ground or trees opening up nailing more units. I even had a tank roll right through a road hex to an objective, and the next turn there was a mortar firing from the same spot, invisible despite all of the havoc he was causing, and still no one could make it appear.
Seems to me that the tactic of leapfrogging is good, but I think the visability computations are slightly out of whack.
Yes, Japanese troops were good at concielment, but this happens a lot to any country played by the AI.
Recon units: I would think those chaps would be profficent at their task and not 'cannon fodder on the fly' so to speak.

Incidently, I took so many casualties from missed units that I had to surrender. Tough AI, but with the force I had, it should have been defeated or at best a draw IMHO.
Any feedback or suggestions would be hightly appreciated from this grognard...

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Post #: 31

- 10/25/2001 2:01:00 AM

challenge

Posts: 465
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

Frank W.: My basic plan was to hold the center ( a small village) with a Mot Inf Co with its 75 How and 88 ATGs on nearby hills with overlapped fiels of fire. Then I would tuck the on-boards 81 mtrs with another Mot Inf plt as pickets and the rest of the Inf company and its support guns overlooking another group of vic hexs (first set near village). This will leave me with an Eng Plt, a Recon Plt (armored cars), and a couple of FOs and Snipers to fill in between and move around as locators. Back up is a Med Panzer Co. Since the map fills the lower corner map box, there's a lot of in between! NixK: I haven't run over a unit without seeing it yet, but I have been unable to see an AT gun (37) firing multiple rounds at point blank range from open terrain before. Most unnerving.

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Challenge

War is unhealthy for die-stamped cardboard and other paper products.

(in reply to Leto II)

Post #: 32

- 10/25/2001 2:01:00 AM

lnp4668

Posts: 517
Joined: 11/10/2000
From: Arlington, TX, USA
Status: offline

Nixk, what is the experience and moral level?

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"My friends, remember this, that there are no bad herbs, and no bad men; there are only bad cultivators." Les Miserables

(in reply to Leto II)

Post #: 33

- 10/25/2001 3:08:00 AM

Tombstone

Posts: 764
Joined: 6/1/2000
From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline

The way to keep your mobile recon units alive is to have a lot of forces concentrated close behind the recon screen. Something like half of your mobile unit's movement rate behind. If you're rooting out infantry usually you can creep forward one hex at a time and once you're two hexes away you'll spot them. If there are tanks or AT gun usually you'll get shot at, hopefully they miss you at which point that car has to stop moving for the time being. If you're expecting major resistance there's likely to be more than one of whatever is trying to kill you and the added bonus that although they waited till now to shoot they're gonna fire away until you escape los/range. To be continued... Tomo

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Post #: 34

- 10/25/2001 3:23:00 AM

Larry Holt

Posts: 1969
Joined: 3/31/2000
From: Atlanta, GA 30068
Status: offline

I have rolled through a hex (but not a road hex) and not seen units there. Another purpose of recon is flank security. Example: My recon sees a large enemy force approaching from the East. I would like to maneuver my tanks against its flankin an enveloping maneuver, that is move East then turn to face North. This however causes me to expose the Eastern flank of my tank force to any follow on enemy forces. To protect against them falling on my flank, I put some recon units East of my envelopment force to provide early warning of any approaching forces.

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Never take counsel of your fears.

(in reply to Leto II)

Post #: 35

- 10/25/2001 7:13:00 AM

swagman

Posts: 103
Joined: 8/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline

Yes, a swagman is an Australian tramp...and isn't that what a infantry does...tramp, tramp, tramp... I am still learning recon...in this game it seems we never stop learning. I find that fast-moving recon (motorcycles and AC's) lose their spotting value...they end up being fire attracters and if I have sufficient other recon units in the vicinity they can usually spot the firing unit after a couple of shots...that is when the position of my main force is critical...in advance I try to keep them concealed or behind smoke...once I spot the firing units I move my heavy armour to a firing line and take sufficient shots to suppress the offending unit, then move fast moving units close enough to get a kill rating that will cause a retreat, once the enemy gun crew/infantry retreat, it loses its fortification bonus and I can plaster it. If the enemy unit is armour, I will bring up infantry via cover to fire at the tank...I may lost a few men but the tanks op-fire ability is significantly reduced, and it gets a little suppression...that's when I bring up my tanks to start firing on the enemy tank...first one (bang there is a wasted op-fire), then a second (bang another op-fire). If my first tank fired immediately after my opponents I assume my opponent would get an accuracy bonus from two consecutive shots at the same unit...the op-fire at the second tank prevents this. If the first tank has survived it is then that I fire, then I fire my second tank (or third if one of the earlier ones has been knocked out)...the end result is that I am able to fire with an accuracy rating similar to my opponent and have a better hit rate (meaning my units survivability increases...alternatively my opponents unit runs out of op-fire shots and I can bring up more tanks at liesure to take him out... This tactic is great for the survivability of my core force, but means my elite recon units do suffer cruel and bloody wastage. I have just started using them in defense... although purchase points is always an issue... if I have enough I place them with an almost overlapping field of view...letting me know if an attack is coming from a direction I haven't covered. In combination with this, I place the artillery designations that are assigned in deployment so I have possible attack routes covered. Should my recon spot enemy group advancing, I can assign artillery with a 0.1 delay , which means the barrage hits before my opponent can move. The result is that the attacking force cohesion is broken, depending on the size of the artillery, with units suffering a reduction in movement, as well as some units being left behind (with the whole force the having to wait for them to catch up). Even if my opponent does move, it often isn't enough to get away from the artillery. By reassigning the barrage to the same hex, it can then be crept forward over the enemy units...with a delay that still allows it to occur before my opponents next move. The other trick with artillery particularly in defense, is to assign it in anticipation of enemy movement with a delay greater than 1. For example, I will assign my artillery between the pre-designated firepoints. With a delay greater than 1 they won't fire and waste ammo. If no enemy units appear, I can simply creep the barrage so the delay is back over 1 and then wait another turn...this saves we using an order. The net result is that with 3 batteries and five pre-designated fire points (when a creep of 2 hexes is used and the fall distribution of up to another 4 hexes) one can cover most of the map-width with a line of artillery that will fall with a delay of 0.3 or less. Net result is the handful of scouts and your artillery can disorganise the enemy attack and buy the defender enough time to set up or move a defense line.

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Post #: 36

- 10/25/2001 2:12:00 PM

Rune Iversen

Posts: 3630
Joined: 7/20/2001
From: Copenhagen. Denmark
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by Nixk:
.....The recon goes out stops, scouts go up the road into town, stop take a look around and see nothing.
Well you can guess what happens next. One hex away, a Japanese platoon in the middle of the road opens up and slaughters my scout squad. On the left, two hexes away, two heavy machinguns plus infantry in open terrain debouch on a halftrack after it too took a good look around.
The rest of the battle went like this every round. ....Yes, Japanese troops were good at concielment, but this happens a lot to any country played by the AI.
Recon units: I would think those chaps would be profficent at their task and not 'cannon fodder on the fly' so to speak.
Incidently, I took so many casualties from missed units that I had to surrender. Tough AI, but with the force I had, it should have been defeated or at best a draw IMHO.
Any feedback or suggestions would be hightly appreciated from this grognard...

Hmm... a tough one.
I really don�t know how to help you here. On one hand you have chosen an opponent that has an intrinsic bonus to "hiding" and on the other you seem to have chosen a balanced and capable force.
You are not really providing very much information about the nature of your problem (apart from the fact that you are getting slaughtered

)
What I can do is give you some pointers to help you figure how to spot more effectively. Your units are most efficient at spotting enemies when they are not moving very fast, if they are infantry and if they have the special "recon/elite recon" ability. The enemy makes it harder for you to spot him if he is in difficult terrain and if he is standing still. What seems to have happened here, is that your vehicles/infantry has been moving too fast and your enemy has stood still and hidden himself in the terrain, making it hard for you to spot him.
My suggestion is that you try a more methodical approach, and conduct a proper recon on foot, with small 2-4 man teams moving cautiously forward at one hex per turn (if time allows),giving you a better cahnce of spotting him, without him seeing you. Otherwise I can only advise you to try to be a bit slower, since it seems that you have perhaps rushed the issue a bit

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Ignoring the wulfir
Fighting the EUnuchs from within

(in reply to Leto II)

Post #: 37

- 10/25/2001 5:40:00 PM

kurtbj

Posts: 72
Joined: 5/15/2001
From: UK
Status: offline

Great thread! I never used to pay much attention to recon units when playing against the AI, the games always seemed short enough that recon wasn't really possible in the time allocated (maybe 15 turns etc). Recently I play a lot of Online games a aginst a friend and Recon is so important. We play longer games of maybe 30 turns so we have time to use recon and observe enemy movements and reply accordingly. The player with better information on enemy troop movements has the upper hand! I also like to use odd snipers or 2 man scout teams to sit on flanks or some rear areas to spot any flanking attempts or infiltrations by guerilla forces.

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'Great Sage Equal of Heaven'

(in reply to Leto II)

Post #: 38

- 10/26/2001 12:15:00 AM

Frank W.

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by Challenge:
Frank W.: My basic plan was to hold the center .......etc etc... why not trying your plan and then tell us how it worked. my policy is mostly based on concentration. and i mostly concentrate my forces west or east of the map,so that my favourite flanking manouver (spelling??) is easier to perform. remember: tanks have usually weaker armor on the sides....
but all these choices depent very much on the terrain of the map,that�s clear. of course it�s a good idea to give the 88 overlooking positions,providing them with inf. protection.... NixK: I haven't run over a unit without seeing it yet, but I have been unable to see an AT gun (37) firing multiple rounds at point blank range from open terrain before. Most unnerving.

that�s quite usual,as 37mm AT have size 0. and when your units are in move they spot even fewer. i suggest let them pause 1 turn and take a look again. buttoned tanks on the move are very bad at spotting.

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Post #: 39

- 10/28/2001 4:04:00 AM

Nixk

Posts: 10
Joined: 9/24/2000
From: San Diego, Ca, USA
Status: offline

I was moving an average of three to five hexes, that was until the Ho-III's decided to spur on my advance. As for experience, a mixed bag of Vets with some rookies (I guess, no experience).
Recon stands not a chance, but I did find the best thing to spot enemy units was to dismount troops after the recon viehicle or tank had moved along. Odd, but it worked.
Played another scenario with similar units, did much better, captured all the obj's... gained a draw.
Tough the Japanese army is (Best weapon against them once detected... flamethrowers)