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RE: Sturmtigers, cost in PBEM

 
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RE: Sturmtigers, cost in PBEM - 3/31/2004 10:29:50 PM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		I've never seen anyone DEFEND the decision to go with a "rarity" based point system. Who are the "OOB Gods" that made this decision? It's just been foisted upon the PBEM community without any consideration to how it effects us.

What gives?

I know reasonable people can disagree, but this seems ridiculous to me. I don't understand the motive.

I'd love for someone to try to convince me that "rarity" is better for my gaming experience. And, no, being FORCED to play with someone's idea of reality is not a good enough excuse. This is a game after all. There's a reason you don't generally play backgammon, chess or checkers with less than an EQUAL number of pieces on each side when the game starts. That way it lets the better TACTICIAN win rather than having to replay a historically accurate (yet tedious, if I may say so) losing battle over and over again as the guy on the short end of the rarity point scale.

Come on you "Rarity Champions," speak up!

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Everyone is a potential [PBEM] enemy, every place a potential [PBEM] battlefield. --Zensunni Wisdom

(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 61
RE: Sturmtigers, cost in PBEM - 3/31/2004 11:50:39 PM   
Kevin E. Duguay

 

Posts: 1044
Joined: 4/24/2002
From: Goldsboro, North Carolina
Status: offline 		rbrunsman,

Rarity can work in the points system. What do you think victory hexes are for? With out some sort of rarity system in the game then why not make it just that, a game where each side has the same units with the only difference in capability would be if they were infantry, calvary, air, armor or artillery. Why should'nt a Panther G be more costly than a Sherman or T-34? Have you ever played ASL or for that matter Squad Leader? The entire point system in that game is based on rarity and ability.

With that said, SPWaW is far from perfect as far as the point system goes and it really needs some work. It's true that some units that should be all but impossible to buy are too readily available to a player in a PBEM game. This could be artificialy fixed with major point increases to units like the Jagd Tiger or Sturmtiger. Or players of PBEM games could make up a set of agreed upon purchase rules befor the game starts.

I here a lot of complaints about Sturmtigers but what about those American 5in fireing aircraft? For a Lousy 70 to 80 points you get TWO aircraft that will kill a Panther almost every turn. I have seen these things kill a tank with ONE rocket. Then to make matters worse about 1 out of 8 attack runs they will force the abandonment or get an out right kill with their 50cal MG's.

So I guess we all have our complaints. Hopefully some of these will be addressed.

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Post #: 62
RE: Sturmtigers, cost in PBEM - 4/1/2004 1:40:06 AM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline 		Right or wrong..long live the OOB teams! Hard working intelligent guys who put their best into what they do. Here, here!

WB

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(in reply to Kevin E. Duguay)
Post #: 63
RE: Sturmtigers, cost in PBEM - 4/1/2004 7:36:38 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		Ummm, Kevin, I think you are arguing my point exactly. Were you trying to do that?

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Everyone is a potential [PBEM] enemy, every place a potential [PBEM] battlefield. --Zensunni Wisdom

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Post #: 64
RE: Sturmtigers, cost in PBEM - 4/1/2004 9:34:36 AM   
Kevin E. Duguay

 

Posts: 1044
Joined: 4/24/2002
From: Goldsboro, North Carolina
Status: offline 		UMMMMM I think maybe?

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Post #: 65
RE: Sturmtigers, cost in PBEM - 4/1/2004 3:59:24 PM   
JJKettunen


Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kevin E. Duguay
Rarity can work in the points system. What do you think victory hexes are for? With out some sort of rarity system in the game then why not make it just that, a game where each side has the same units with the only difference in capability would be if they were infantry, calvary, air, armor or artillery. Why should'nt a Panther G be more costly than a Sherman or T-34? Have you ever played ASL or for that matter Squad Leader? The entire point system in that game is based on rarity and ability.


In case you haven't noticed, nobody is arguing that all the units of the same type should be equal in cost. The price should be based on ability only. That way Panther G is always more expensive than Sherman or T-34.

quote:

With that said, SPWaW is far from perfect as far as the point system goes and it really needs some work. It's true that some units that should be all but impossible to buy are too readily available to a player in a PBEM game. This could be artificialy fixed with major point increases to units like the Jagd Tiger or Sturmtiger. Or players of PBEM games could make up a set of agreed upon purchase rules befor the game starts.


Why should there be a forced rarity if unit prices are set according to combat ability and players can agree upon purchase rules?

quote:

I here a lot of complaints about Sturmtigers but what about those American 5in fireing aircraft? For a Lousy 70 to 80 points you get TWO aircraft that will kill a Panther almost every turn. I have seen these things kill a tank with ONE rocket. Then to make matters worse about 1 out of 8 attack runs they will force the abandonment or get an out right kill with their 50cal MG's.


Yes, tac bombers with laser guided rockets shouldn't be part of WWII.

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Jyri Kettunen

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

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(in reply to Kevin E. Duguay)
Post #: 66
RE: Sturmtigers, cost in PBEM - 4/10/2004 2:20:52 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline
quote:

Posted by Keke:
With that said, SPWaW is far from perfect as far as the point system goes and it really needs some work. It's true that some units that should be all but impossible to buy are too readily available to a player in a PBEM game. This could be artificialy fixed with major point increases to units like the Jagd Tiger or Sturmtiger. Or players of PBEM games could make up a set of agreed upon purchase rules befor the game starts
Why should there be a forced rarity if unit prices are set according to combat ability and players can agree upon purchase rules?


Keke, there have been some adjustments to unit prices in 8.2. This is the bugaboo--I posted a poll in which 60% of the gamers state they play against the AI only. Perhaps the only answer is an idependently-designed OOB set for PBEM only. The final Matrix OOB unit costs are a compromise--this is the only way it could be done. The rarity rules are simple to bypass --simply turn them off. In this way, PBEM or H2H players can fight amongst themselves on what is fair and what isn't.

I 've stated this time and again--why in the world wouldn't PBEM players let a third party select the forces for both sides? It seems so simple, but you guys aren't listening. I'm only hearing more reasons why I will never get involved in PBEM or H2H play in SPWaW. Too much gaminess, not enough attention to historical formations--it's just ridiculous, and I won't bother with it.

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 4/9/2004 7:27:59 PM >

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Post #: 67
RE: Sturmtigers, cost in PBEM - 4/27/2004 3:08:17 AM   
MacCready

 

Posts: 591
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: USA
Status: offline 		Dont forget if you dont like this new version(I wont be trying it till 8.2 comes out) ,you can just keep playing 7.1 and forget it :)

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 68
Point hoopla - 4/29/2004 2:10:28 PM   
TheOverlord


Posts: 337
Joined: 11/13/2002
From: Connecticut
Status: offline 		Rarity in the points forces everyone to play games along historic lines.

IF I WANTED A HISTORICAL GAME THEN I WILL PLAY A SCENARIO!!!

Not everyone plays this game to reinact WW2 on thier pc. Not everyone wants to be forced into historic lines. Many folks (including myself) just enjoy the battles themselves and could care less if it is historically accurate. The whole point of pbem is to pit your tactical skills against someone else's using your favorite equipment. Nothing more than that.

If you want to add some rarity to it then that is what the d@mn rarity setting is for. Dont force it on everyone in the point system.

The beauty of WAW was the attempt to make an accurate balistics engine with alot of detail given to making the units behave as close as they can to "real life" given the limitations of the game engine. All things being equal, the value of the units themselves should be relative based on ability only. If one unit costs 10 points more than another it should be becuse it is slightly better in some way, not because the country made less of them. You make it difficult to get balanced battles for pbem when you dont know the actual combat worth of 1000 points of one countries units vs anothers.

SPWW2 and SPMBT have run all thier units through a standard point calculator and the games are great. Not as good as the WAW engine but at least you know the battles are balanced.


If Matrix wont change the system then how about releasing the formula used to calculate the prices so adventurous oob tweakers can equalize the costs themselves and remove the rarity inflation?

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(in reply to MacCready)
Post #: 69
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