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fast artillery setting - 11/27/2001 6:26:00 AM   
pax27

 

Posts: 126
Joined: 10/19/2001
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		I´ve played the game with this setting turned off for a while, just to see and hear that wonderful artillery pounding away. A couple of days ago I turned fast artillery on, it was just getting a little much with all that waiting.
What I saw was unsoothing. I think that the fast artillery setting made my artillery fire a lot less rounds!
I was pre-bombing on an assault scenario and I tried this first strike with and without fast artillery setting. I can tell you one thing, the shell holes and the fires from the few Wurfrhamen´s I had was substantially fewer with fast artillery turned on. I only tested once, I desided I wanted something else to do in life, so I come to you guys and gals.
Is there (should there be) any difference in the artillery outcome when you use the fast artillery setting? It wasn´t just a small almost unnoticable difference, but a significant one, so I just had to sak.

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- 11/27/2001 2:34:00 PM   
skukko


Posts: 1928
Joined: 10/24/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline 		If you want to look and count shells turn vcr on and watch them dropping. mosh

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mosh

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Post #: 2
- 11/27/2001 6:27:00 PM   
pax27

 

Posts: 126
Joined: 10/19/2001
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Ok, let me clarify: With fast artillery on I got a lot less results, I´m not a complete moran, but if I see 20 craters with fast artillery and 50 without that setting I start wondering.
So, again is this something that is just a visual or is it a so called (oh my god!!!) bug, or am I dreaming.
Please read my post before answering, like I wrote, I not a complete fool, this is just something that seem quite obviously strange. I´ve tried it some moore, and I get a lot less downfall with fast artillery setting on. So there you go

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Post #: 3
- 11/27/2001 10:44:00 PM   
Larry Holt

 

Posts: 1969
Joined: 3/31/2000
From: Atlanta, GA 30068
Status: offline 		Someone once posted that fast arty on seems to cause less casualities too. I ran a few tests and confirmed this to be sometimes true. At that time I was unsure of how many tests I had to run to determine if the results were just some statistical skew or were valid so I did not pursue it. I have since found out that generally one needs 30 instances of a test to be valid (60 is much better). If the number of craters caused by 30 fast ary off is significantly different than 30 fast arty on, then its something in the code that is not right (maybe a b**). Significantly different is defined as Hmm I do not know. I *think* this would be if the mean of one set is not within one std dev of the mean of the other. However, I am not sure and this is a lot of tests to run. [ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: Larry Holt ]



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Post #: 4
- 11/28/2001 3:48:00 AM   
Jasper

 

Posts: 174
Joined: 5/29/2001
From: I am from Mars
Status: offline 		I have said befoe but alot of them disagree. I myself had tested it several times and stick to it that fast artillery sucks.......

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Post #: 5
- 11/28/2001 4:08:00 AM   
pax27

 

Posts: 126
Joined: 10/19/2001
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Thanks Larry, Thanks Casper! I definetly say fast artillery makes less of an impact. Too bad, the time difference is so huge that it´s almost worth buying double the arty.
I realise the testing involved, but it could be worth looking into for a patch or something. I think this would be something that Paul Vebber should look into. If that´s his area ofcourse. Gee, here I´ve downloaded a free, great game, and I try to tell the great guys at Matrix what they should do. I hope you can see beyond that and feel my concern for this great game.
In a big scenario where both sides use some arty it takes up more time then you actually play the game, or so it feels. But then you feel that the fast artillery is not to be trusted, so you sit there for 20 minutes.
I can say this much, although I´ve only played the game for 3 months or so, I´ve learnt how much fire a 150mm bty of german arty will lay if it fires all rounds in one turn, and it´s not happening for me with fast artillery setting on.
Not to mention the easy cheat, turn fast arty on when it´s AI turn

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Post #: 6
- 11/28/2001 2:04:00 PM   
Jasper

 

Posts: 174
Joined: 5/29/2001
From: I am from Mars
Status: offline 		Paul mentioned before that it is the same but I still see tons of different especially when using rocket. The impact is surely different.

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Post #: 7
- 11/28/2001 2:50:00 PM   
AmmoSgt

 

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline 		When you watch your Arty on regular speed watch how the impacts make larger and smaller craters, and back again and how buildings are destroyed and partially restored and how roads become heavily cratered and then less cratered and more deeply cratered again... thats all just visual effects ...
To test try it on troops ... they die equally well .. because killing troops is not based on the cratering visuals ...

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Post #: 8
- 11/28/2001 6:37:00 PM   
pax27

 

Posts: 126
Joined: 10/19/2001
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Thanks AmmoSgt and all the rest of you. Although Sgt, it´s also the smoke that heavy arty ALWAYS creates. and the fact that if you use the bigger rockets they ALWAYS create craters, but it would be good if this was just visual.
But still, if a turn of Wurfrahmen creates an entire firewall without fast artillery setting and then you try it with this setting and get half the fires (flame-rockets ALWAYS creates flames, and never as few as two hexes in my experience, if the Wurfrahmen fire everything at once) I still get a little confused.
I guess I´m not convinsed, that´s all.
I think I´ll be trying this out with the editor and post back here.

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Post #: 9
- 11/28/2001 11:07:00 PM   
color

 

Posts: 324
Joined: 7/24/2001
From: Oslo, Norway
Status: offline 		I think a good solution would be what I have been desiring for a long time; separate delay level for direct fire messages and indirect fire messages. I usually want to be able to follow the direct fire messages so I set a delay of .5 - 1 second, but indirect fire gets really boring to watch this way. If it was possible to set the indirect fire message level to 0 while maintaining the other setting for other types of messages, I would sure be a big help. The indirect would fall really fast, but at least we would be able to see where each round impacts. Color

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Post #: 10
- 11/28/2001 11:25:00 PM   
11Bravo


Posts: 2082
Joined: 4/5/2001
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Larry Holt:
I have since found out that generally one needs 30 instances of a test to be valid (60 is much better). [ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: Larry Holt ]
I use statistics quite a bit in my work and sometimes in my hobbies. Every time I wondered about how many tests to do, the answer seemed to be 30. One day, I knew the answer ahead of time. So I decided to see how many tests were necessary before the right answer revealed itself. Turned out to be 30, with 60 being better

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Post #: 11
- 11/29/2001 8:56:00 PM   
pax27

 

Posts: 126
Joined: 10/19/2001
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		I did a few tests. Used german Wurfrahmen x 4 and a 150mm bty on a 50x50 clean map. My target was 20 plt (20x4 squads of 10 men each=800 men) of brittish enginners spread out on a straight line 3x20 hexes. The target areas was the same, I actually saved the game and used the exact same plotting of the artillery for each set of tests (one fast artillery on, one FA off). After the bombing I checked the battle result with Chalandas editor.
Like I said, only a few tests so far, it takes A LOT of time to do just this small test.
It seems like I was wrong (that´s a first...yeah right), with Fast Artilery setting ON, the result was pretty much the same as with it OFF when it came to men killed, units destroyed and total damage.
The big difference lay in the visual outcome of a bombing. This is a concern why, you say. Well, I´m used to the flame rockets killing line-of-sight completely, beeing irritating if you rely on german AFV range advantage. Now, with fast artillery on, I don´t get the same blocking of LOS, wich to me is just wrong. If the kill ratio is the same, but the smoke/fires are fewer, that can be used as a fake advantage if you ask me (I know, no one did ).
I´ll have to test this with smoke screens! That could be really annoying if the arty lays less smoke then usual with fast arty on.

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Post #: 12
- 11/29/2001 10:37:00 PM   
tracer


Posts: 1865
Joined: 11/22/2000
From: New Smyrna Beach, FL USA
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
When you watch your Arty on regular speed watch how the impacts make larger and smaller craters, and back again and how buildings are destroyed and partially restored and how roads become heavily cratered and then less cratered and more deeply cratered again... thats all just visual effects ...(snip)
Pax, just remember that Ammo Sgt's point is also true with smoke: as more rounds land on hexes already containing smoke it may appear that the smoke becomes less dense, but this is only a visual effect.

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Post #: 13
- 11/30/2001 6:24:00 PM   
pax27

 

Posts: 126
Joined: 10/19/2001
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		tracer, thats as we Southpark fans call: GAY. Why would I want smoke in one hex four times?
I´m sorry, but the casualties beeing the same I can take, but there is just something flawed in the visual outcome, anyone could see that after looking into this, actually playing with both settings.
Beliewe me, we all have the need to come off as if we know everything, but I think this is simply too obvious a glitch in the matrix (pun intended, and really funny too) to overlook. It´s no biggie, and with matrix coming out with v7 as "the final solution" (bad, politically incorrect pun) I´ll have to live with it

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Post #: 14
- 12/2/2001 7:47:00 AM   
Major Destruction


Posts: 881
Joined: 8/10/2000
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Here's a solution for those who find the fast artillery suspect and the slow artillery too boring to watch. I set live delay to 10 and message delay to 110 for general play purposes. Before ending my turn, if I am expecting a long bombardment, (boring) I re-set my message delay to 10. Then, when the bbmt arrives, I see all the rounds as they fall and I hear the sound effects. Actually, with these settings, the sound effects are better. If you are playing by email and you set your Fast Artillery ON, your opponent will not see your bbmt in the replay. If I happen to be your opponent I will ask you to turn your Fast Artillery OFF. [ December 01, 2001: Message edited by: Major Destruction ]



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Post #: 15
- 12/2/2001 9:17:00 AM   
pax27

 

Posts: 126
Joined: 10/19/2001
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		That´s really helpfull Major, thanks a bunch!

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Post #: 16
- 12/4/2001 10:43:00 AM   
Capt. Pixel

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 10/15/2001
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Major D-
When we PBEM we keep Fast Arty OFF, but still don't see the incoming rounds on VCR playback. But I AM able to see mine and my opponent's incoming at the end of my turn. I also ran a small test (only five runs each) with a platoon of 81mm Mortars, a 105mm Howitzer section and an OBA 155mm BN. These were all targetted at a GE Rifle Co each in Hot Seat mode (so's I could watch the carnage.
The only significant difference I noted was in the casualties caused by the 155s. I recorded half the casualties with Fast Arty ON as with it set OFF.
Incidently, it seems the three mortars were twice as effective at causing supression as the two howitzers.

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Post #: 17
- 12/15/2001 12:35:00 AM   
BjörnR

 

Posts: 55
Joined: 8/24/2000
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		This question has disturbed me a little too. It’s obvious that the graphic result of fast artillery on/off is different (less effect when on). It’s also a frustrating when you can’t follow your own artillery with the VCR in a PBEM game.
I have also done some tests but as stated above the results (apart from the graphics) are inconclusive.

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Post #: 18
- 12/15/2001 3:46:00 AM   
pax27

 

Posts: 126
Joined: 10/19/2001
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Thanks for the feedback everyone! I guess we´re stuck with this graphics-anomaly in fast arty, but at least the kills are the same. SPWaW is still such an amazing game, there´s a lot of as*kissing going around, but I just have to pucker up and thank the guys at Matrix for this incredible game!!!

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Post #: 19
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