RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl?

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/5/2004 1:08:55 AM

tondern

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tiredoftryingnames

It's not gamey. A bit unrealistic from the human standpoint that not many would fight to the death. But a player pays for that tactic. Instead of saving his ships he's just removed them from play and added points towards victory for his opponent to delay an invasion by a whole few days.

Dear Tired: "a few days" ? ? If the tactic works as Frag describes and the covering task forces run low on ammo and withdraw, would not the whole operation return to base? Steaming, Re loading and resupply might take more than a week, and then you have to steam back and try the invasion again. If distances are large (after all this was a thread on invading PH) I could see a wasted month here. Or do you resupply at sea from an ammo ship (did they really do that with 8" shells? I'm reasonably certain 14, 15 and 16" BB shells were not resupllied at sea).

Tondern

(in reply to tiredoftryingnames)

Post #: 31

RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/5/2004 1:14:57 AM

Mr.Frag

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quote:

Dear Tired: "a few days" ? ? If the tactic works as Frag describes and the covering task forces run low on ammo and withdraw, would not the whole operation return to base? Steaming, Re loading and resupply might take more than a week, and then you have to steam back and try the invasion again. If distances are large (after all this was a thread on invading PH) I could see a wasted month here. Or do you resupply at sea from an ammo ship (did they really do that with 8" shells? I'm reasonably certain 14, 15 and 16" BB shells were not resupllied at sea).

Thats exactly the point!

Control of the seas is required to mount an invasion. As long as you do not have control of the seas, you can not invade. If you did not bring enough ships to *control* the seas, then you did not plan a successful invasion and we'll see you in a month when you try again.

Smaller shells can be reloaded via AE's, the bigger shells will have you in a port of at least size 3.

If you plan an invasion over a large distance without a size 3 port near to take ships with flood damage to, you are really just showing that you should not be in command of a war game

(in reply to tondern)

Post #: 32

RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/5/2004 1:37:46 AM

RUPD3658

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I haven't seen the game yet but I wonder if one of my old tactics from Pac War would work.

The real goal of an attack on Hawaii is not so much to take it but to force the US to fight. Remember the US only has 6 CVs at the start and won't get any more until June of 42. If they can be sunk even at a loss of 2-3 Jap CVs the Japs will have free reign for several months.

What I propose is to take the island to the West of Hawaii (Johnston or Canton if my memory serves me) as well as Midway and use them as bases to raid Hawaii from air and sea. In addition, rather than take Pearl, take one of the other less defended islands and make raids into Pearl. Remeber the goal is to force a fight. If you take out his BBs in the opening raid then lure the CVs into a fight it should be easy to knock off the supply ships and smaller warships. Even without taking Pearl you can put a hurt on the US fleet.

Also it makes it difficult to supply Pearl through the Jap blockade which should lead to heavy supply ship losses. Taking a few other islands to use as air bases to harras shipping also helps. This opens up a later strike against Austrailia.

Any comments from playtesters? This worked in Pac War.

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Post #: 33

RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/5/2004 1:51:52 AM

Drex

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I believe while the Jean Bart was defending her harbor, the Richilieu was successfully defending its harbor at Dakar driving DeGaulle's force away. This tactic is not gamey.

(in reply to mdiehl)

Post #: 34

RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/5/2004 1:55:14 AM

tondern

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Dear Frag,

Could not agree more.

Your tatical posts are very helpful. I suppose the manual is clear on most of this, or do we have to learn by doing?

What we need is a draft copy of the manual to peruse.

BTW do ships get caught in friendly minefields? And are the Dutch destroyers capable of minelaying (as they were in reality)?

Yours,

Tondern

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 35

RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/5/2004 2:06:18 AM

Nikademus

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PacWar did not have as detailed or extensive logistics system nor did
ships "degrade" as they can in WitP through wear and tear. These
factors come into even more prominance when one considers that pacWar
turns were 1 week in length while WitP turns are 24 hours.

Thus, overall either side is going to find it a whole hell of a lot harder
to conduct sustained and/or moderately intensive efforts in distant theaters
far away from established logitical support centers.

The time scale difference, combined with the huge map will also compound
the force disposition issue. If for example the Japan player is really focusing
on raiding Pearl harbor thats that many less ships and airpower he/she cant
devote to the southern flank, or the SRA....which unlike PacWar are not a pushover
to take.

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Post #: 36

RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/5/2004 2:08:15 AM

mogami

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RUPD3658

I haven't seen the game yet but I wonder if one of my old tactics from Pac War would work.

The real goal of an attack on Hawaii is not so much to take it but to force the US to fight. Remember the US only has 6 CVs at the start and won't get any more until June of 42. If they can be sunk even at a loss of 2-3 Jap CVs the Japs will have free reign for several months.

What I propose is to take the island to the West of Hawaii (Johnston or Canton if my memory serves me) as well as Midway and use them as bases to raid Hawaii from air and sea. In addition, rather than take Pearl, take one of the other less defended islands and make raids into Pearl. Remeber the goal is to force a fight. If you take out his BBs in the opening raid then lure the CVs into a fight it should be easy to knock off the supply ships and smaller warships. Even without taking Pearl you can put a hurt on the US fleet.

Also it makes it difficult to supply Pearl through the Jap blockade which should lead to heavy supply ship losses. Taking a few other islands to use as air bases to harras shipping also helps. This opens up a later strike against Austrailia.

Any comments from playtesters? This worked in Pac War.

Hi, In Pacwar you could just form a TF of Tankers and send 200,000 fuel and it would be there the next turn. Combat occured 1 per week. In WITP you'll need to send TF's over great distance. This enterprise can do the opposite. (I mean it can get Japan involved in a battle of attrition in bases it cannot keep in the long run because of their proximity to one of the largest enemy bases on the map. PH repairs damage to ships much faster then Midway or Johnson ever can. The Allies can hit back harder (They use B-17 while Japan uses Betty/Nell) There is a horde of USN submarines (they will mine Midway and Johnson around the clock)

Now understand what you suggest can be done. But it will be the major effort of the Japanese player not a side show. If it is attempted prior to Japans securing the SRA it will be a disaster. (while you might be hurting the USN you are also doing for them what they could not do otherwise.)

Neither player can place their forces in range of enemy airfields that are large enough to hold large numbers of aircraft and escape severe damage. The US player would not have to ever risk his CV in this scenario. (I'd send mine to Noumea) There are enough airfields in the area to win the battle. The allies can send transport TF's loaded with 500,000 supply (and another of fuel) and still another loaded with troops and airgoups.
You can't stop it. (you can inflict severe damage) However this is just a battle of attrition and we know who will win these type battles.

The Japanese have to destroy allied material. But they have to find ways of doing it that don't require them to lose material in such amounts as a long air battle in 1942 would require. (Find a target, hit it hard and get the *&^^ away before the enemy reaction arrives)

< Message edited by Mogami -- 6/4/2004 7:10:06 PM >

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Post #: 37

RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/5/2004 2:28:45 AM

Brady

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"Wow, another "gamey" exploit that will likely be the subject of many "house rules". "

I agre that is compleatly gammy, this suposes that the invaders would strike at the worst spot, a fortified/mined port facility, I am stunded that some of the testers are defending it the way they are.

(in reply to Fallschirmjager)

Post #: 38

RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/5/2004 2:40:22 AM

Mr.Frag

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You guys have obviously been smoking something today ...

Calling an armed naval vessel protecting a shoreline from an invasion gamey has got to be the "all time biggest crock" that I have *ever* seen posted in my entire life.

I'm just curious exactly what you people think that ships of war were even built for?

(in reply to Brady)

Post #: 39

RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/5/2004 3:05:32 AM

Raverdave

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

As I have said before, a much safer and infinitly more usefull objective, assuming everything else goes well would be to launch as invasion of Oz land.

The only part of Oz that is able to be taken IMHO is the North,Nort west coast and maybe as far south as Perth. Any landings on the East coast are going to cause the IJ player a lot of headaches.

But IF you are intending to take Darwin (Which I think that most Japanese players should strongly consider) then it has to be done early in the game. In my current PBEM with Luskan we are now at the end of Feb'42 and Darwin now has 5 Bdes plus the ususal hangers-on, which now makes a quick grab of Darwin impossible. If Darwin is on your target list make sure you attack it before the end of Jan.

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/5/2004 3:11:57 AM

Raverdave

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

You guys have obviously been smoking something today ...

Calling an armed naval vessel protecting a shoreline from an invasion gamey has got to be the "all time biggest crock" that I have *ever* seen posted in my entire life.

I'm just curious exactly what you people think that ships of war were even built for?

" He who controls the sea, controls the land" Themistocles 490 BC

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Post #: 41

RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/5/2004 3:13:22 AM

byron13

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I'm not familiar enough with the game mechanics to be comfortable with this, but I think what he's saying is that there is little difference between a sortie to defend an invasion of Oahu's North Shore and a sortie to defend Molokai one hex away. Probably about the same sailing distance. However, under the game system, because the North Shore is in the same hex as the port in which the ships will die to defend, the Japanese cannot assault the North Shore, but could assault Molokai because the ships in Pearl won't sortie or be present there. I think.

Or that the invasion would occur thirty miles away from the port (same hex due to hex size) - something a battered defending fleet could not influence because it is too far away and the fleet is unable to sail to it due to damage.

< Message edited by byron13 -- 6/5/2004 1:13:49 AM >

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Post #: 42

RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/5/2004 3:18:22 AM

Fallschirmjager

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

As I have said before, a much safer and infinitly more usefull objective, assuming everything else goes well would be to launch as invasion of Oz land.

The only part of Oz that is able to be taken IMHO is the North,Nort west coast and maybe as far south as Perth. Any landings on the East coast are going to cause the IJ player a lot of headaches.

But IF you are intending to take Darwin (Which I think that most Japanese players should strongly consider) then it has to be done early in the game. In my current PBEM with Luskan we are now at the end of Feb'42 and Darwin now has 5 Bdes plus the ususal hangers-on, which now makes a quick grab of Darwin impossible. If Darwin is on your target list make sure you attack it before the end of Jan.

This would have a two fold function.
1. You can use any heavy industry located in the cities you capture.
2. Forcing the Allied player to kick you back out again will cause delays that are greater than what was historicaly experienced.
Delay is the name of the game for the Japanese player.
If you can take it with a mininum of loss to yourself and then fortify it you can extract losses and delay the Allies in their campaign.
Thats how I intend to think about potential targets when I am playing with Japan.

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Post #: 43

RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/5/2004 3:21:55 AM

byron13

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

But IF you are intending to take Darwin (Which I think that most Japanese players should strongly consider) then it has to be done early in the game. In my current PBEM with Luskan we are now at the end of Feb'42 and Darwin now has 5 Bdes plus the ususal hangers-on, which now makes a quick grab of Darwin impossible. If Darwin is on your target list make sure you attack it before the end of Jan.

Does the AI go after Darwin if given a fair opportunity?

(in reply to Raverdave)

Post #: 44

RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/5/2004 3:31:21 AM

highblooded

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When it comes to defending a port, I believe that as long as the defending ships are surface combat vessels I can't see this being called "gamey".
If someone were to use Transports, Tankers, CVE's or something similar (ie. not well armed and not designed for combat) for the 'defend to the death' scenario I would certainly have an issue with this.

Perhaps this is what the "gamey" believers are referring to.

(in reply to tondern)

Post #: 45

RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/5/2004 3:38:47 AM

byron13

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I think what's got Brady riled up is that the game assumes that the invasion is at the port itself, which badly damaged ships will die to defend using this system. If the assault is on the port itself, or within range of the defender's guns, it's not gamey. But it assumes that the player is not assaulting some beach five or ten miles away that the damaged ships couldn't sortie to defend.

And, yes, *if* a collier or yacht will prevent an invasion, that would be problematic as well. Not sure if that happens in the game or not. Based on some AARs, a group of five PT boats might hold up a formidable invasion force long enough for help to arrive.

(in reply to highblooded)

Post #: 46

RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/5/2004 3:50:57 AM

Brady

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"I think what's got Brady riled up"-That and the 3 hour sortie I had with my wead eater in the back 40

But byron13, has sumed it up prety well I think.

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/5/2004 3:58:30 AM

byron13

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
A little trick for you ... when defending a port, there is a way to enforce suicidal ships:

Bet you wished you hadn't mentioned this one, huh?

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/5/2004 4:12:33 AM

FirstPappy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kaleun

In fact, that was one of the lessons from the raid on Dieppe, that the losses from taking a defended port would be prohibitive. A side result were the Mayberry? floating piers to allow supply ships to dock on the beach.

I think you mean Mulberry. Andy, Opie, Barney, Floyd and Aunt Bee lived in Mayberry.

(in reply to kaleun)

Post #: 49

RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/5/2004 4:17:41 AM

Mr.Frag

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quote:

Bet you wished you hadn't mentioned this one, huh?

No actually ... it gives me a great insight in who *not* to play. Anyone who sees combat vessels being ordered to prevent an invasion no matter what as gamey is someone I have absolutely no interests in ever playing.

I would go so far as to beach a BB with guns still functional to continue to fight. It can be refloated later assuming it fufills it's task and holds off the ships while the defenders prepare positions. A 24- 48 hour delay might just be enough for the cavalry to sail into 'harm's way' and save the day ... but well, gee, i'm just gamey

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/5/2004 4:28:15 AM

Mr.Frag

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quote:

I suppose the manual is clear on most of this, or do we have to learn by doing?

The manual is a reference guide of how the game works. It is presumed that people buying Advanced Grognard level war games have some basic understanding of strategy. After this thread though, I am really starting to wonder about that.

A lot of this game will be learned here coupled with the best teacher of all times "the school of hard knocks".

(in reply to tondern)

Post #: 51

RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/5/2004 5:26:51 AM

kfmiller41

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my only problem with that school is how much time you invest only to find out your screwed up

Guess thats why grognards are what they are

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/5/2004 5:35:01 AM

Raverdave

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quote:

ORIGINAL: byron13

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

But IF you are intending to take Darwin (Which I think that most Japanese players should strongly consider) then it has to be done early in the game. In my current PBEM with Luskan we are now at the end of Feb'42 and Darwin now has 5 Bdes plus the ususal hangers-on, which now makes a quick grab of Darwin impossible. If Darwin is on your target list make sure you attack it before the end of Jan.

Does the AI go after Darwin if given a fair opportunity?

I don't know !

_____________________________

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/5/2004 5:36:55 AM

CommC

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The point is, a beached, damaged BB in Pearl Harbor can't defend against an invasion of the north shore of Oahu. That the game allows this immobile BB to make this defense is "gamey". Or maybe we should just call it a "limitation of the model". i.e. the game isn't able to distinguish parts of a 60 mile hex separately when it comes to invasion defense.

Can we live with that? ... maybe...

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Post #: 54

RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/5/2004 5:54:26 AM

Mr.Frag

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CommC

The point is, a beached, damaged BB in Pearl Harbor can't defend against an invasion of the north shore of Oahu. That the game allows this immobile BB to make this defense is "gamey". Or maybe we should just call it a "limitation of the model". i.e. the game isn't able to distinguish parts of a 60 mile hex separately when it comes to invasion defense.

Can we live with that? ... maybe...

Oh, to as your ships pull in your are going to on the 'fly' replan your entire 10 division invasion fleet to land in a different location just because I happen to be in your way? Now who is talking 'gamey'?

That replanning would take you at least a week assuming you had maps of the entire area and there happened to be other viable areas.

(in reply to CommC)

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/5/2004 6:17:04 AM

Drex

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In WWI wasn't the old BB Canopus beached to protect the port : (Falkland?) I suppose there are more examples to be made that ships were used solely for harbor protection. Jean Bart was not yet completed and was used for that purpose. Wasn't the Konigsberg used for that at Dar es Salaam in WWI?

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Post #: 56

RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/5/2004 6:26:21 AM

barbarrossa

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a/c available, bombing said ships inp port.

you have to have a lot of water intake for the main power plants to operate, i.e. to generate ship's power, so all that fancy FC and GM stuff would work. as the ship settled .....it (water intake) would be diminished, fires would be hard to extinguish and evrything would really suck for the crew.

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Post #: 57

RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/5/2004 6:34:52 AM

Fallschirmjager

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Seems to me that in real life they would simply ignore a non threating ship or they would divert a part of the TF to take care of the ship while the other part landed.
It also seems to me that transports should not take part in any surface combats when the TF they are in is the one initiating the action.

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/5/2004 7:01:15 AM

mogami

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Wait a minute. No one is really thinking they could land troops in Hawaii or US West Coast without first fighting a surface battle? (really a monster series of surface battles)

First there are the PT boats
Next there are all the undamaged surface ships. You can't count on your CV helping. Weather over Hawaii or the CV could be bad. Weather never prevents submarines or surface ships.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 6/5/2004 12:03:00 AM >

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Post #: 59

RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/5/2004 7:03:26 AM

Nikademus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Drex

In WWI wasn't the old BB Canopus beached to protect the port : (Falkland?) I suppose there are more examples to be made that ships were used solely for harbor protection. Jean Bart was not yet completed and was used for that purpose. Wasn't the Konigsberg used for that at Dar es Salaam in WWI?

Falklands.

She was beached to provide both a more stable gun platform and to allow her guns to gain a higher elevation and range. The old girl was litterally made a make shift coast defence platform.

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