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RE: UV retrofit - 6/16/2004 1:14:41 AM

Blackwatch_it

Posts: 247
Joined: 2/6/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kid

Quik poll , would you rather we patch UV or work on Bomb Alley?

A new WiR

Agree a new WiR

(in reply to Fallschirmjager)

Post #: 31

RE: UV retrofit - 6/16/2004 1:25:55 AM

Svar

Posts: 381
Joined: 9/7/2000
From: China Lake, Ca
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackwatch_it

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kid

Quik poll , would you rather we patch UV or work on Bomb Alley?

A new WiR

Agree a new WiR

I would also vote for a new WiR, the last one is older than PacWar.

(in reply to Blackwatch_it)

Post #: 32

RE: UV retrofit - 6/16/2004 1:50:04 AM

dwesolick

Posts: 593
Joined: 6/24/2002
From: Colorado
Status: offline

Also vote for a new WiR...at BATTALION level...just kidding...regimental will do just fine.

UV Med wouldn't be bad either.

< Message edited by dwesolick -- 6/15/2004 11:50:53 PM >

_____________________________

"The Navy has a moth-eaten tradition that the captain who loses his ship is disgraced. What do they have all those ships for, if not to hurl them at the enemy?" --Douglas MacArthur

(in reply to Svar)

Post #: 33

RE: UV retrofit - 6/16/2004 2:58:00 AM

Damien Thorn

Posts: 1107
Joined: 7/24/2003
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
Again, you go into business to MAKE MONEY, end of story.

Gee, better not tell that to all the non-profit businesses out there.

quote:

Now that business may very well fail, and taking the tact you suggest just about guarantees that.

Yeah, supporting your product is a sure ticket to failure.

What kind of crack are you smoking? I work for a company that continues to support their products for 10 years after release. If, after WitP has been out for a while, the majority of players is calling for WitP patches instead of UV patches then I can accept that but that doesn't seem to be the case now. They should support the product that is out there now.

quote:

... then I say BLOW IT OFF!

Spoken like a guy who didn't even buy UV. We vote with our wallets so since you haven't voted be quiet and let the adults speak.

quote:

Sucks to be you, I guess. How blue can you make yourself?

Ever since you came to our forum all you've done is criticize people. You started with the developers' lack of skill and now I see you've branched out from there. Go back to whatever grave you crawled out of, Zombie.

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 34

RE: UV retrofit - 6/16/2004 3:47:07 AM

siRkid

Posts: 6650
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Orland FL
Status: offline

I would very much like to see WIR redone.

_____________________________

Former War in the Pacific Test Team Manager and Beta Tester for War in the East.

(in reply to Damien Thorn)

Post #: 35

RE: UV retrofit - 6/16/2004 5:18:02 AM

GBirkn

Posts: 249
Joined: 5/6/2004
From: the briny deep
Status: offline

I've never played WiR, but it would be interesting to see that in an updated version. I'll probably never even run UV or PacWar once WitP comes out. The Med campaign has never been my cup of tea, but I'd take a close look at Bomb Alley.

_____________________________

"War is the remedy our enemies have chosen, and I say let's give them all they want." -- Gen. W. T. Sherman

(in reply to siRkid)

Post #: 36

RE: UV retrofit - 6/16/2004 5:20:33 AM

dwesolick

Posts: 593
Joined: 6/24/2002
From: Colorado
Status: offline

What is "Bomb Alley" exactly?

_____________________________

"The Navy has a moth-eaten tradition that the captain who loses his ship is disgraced. What do they have all those ships for, if not to hurl them at the enemy?" --Douglas MacArthur

(in reply to GBirkn)

Post #: 37

RE: UV retrofit - 6/16/2004 5:21:50 AM

GBirkn

Posts: 249
Joined: 5/6/2004
From: the briny deep
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dwesolick

What is "Bomb Alley" exactly?

It's a nickname for the Mediterranean naval campaign.

As seen here, for example:

http://www.avalanchepress.com/gameBombAlley.php

< Message edited by GBirkn -- 6/15/2004 10:25:18 PM >

_____________________________

"War is the remedy our enemies have chosen, and I say let's give them all they want." -- Gen. W. T. Sherman

(in reply to dwesolick)

Post #: 38

RE: UV retrofit - 6/16/2004 5:38:23 AM

dwesolick

Posts: 593
Joined: 6/24/2002
From: Colorado
Status: offline

Gotcha...so Bomb Alley is UV Med, so to speak. Thanks!

_____________________________

"The Navy has a moth-eaten tradition that the captain who loses his ship is disgraced. What do they have all those ships for, if not to hurl them at the enemy?" --Douglas MacArthur

(in reply to GBirkn)

Post #: 39

RE: UV retrofit - 6/16/2004 6:24:49 AM

pad152

Posts: 2871
Joined: 4/23/2000
Status: offline

quote:

Well, there is one and ONLY one viable reason to EVER go into business. And that includes the computer gaming business.

To make money, period. If the work does not have much hope of generating additional profit, short or long term for the company then the work is a waste of time. 2X3 is NOT a hobby for its principals, it is a business. If they indeed "promised" a post WitP patch, then they have their reputation at stake, which can be directly tied to long term profitablity. But I don't recall such a promise, and regardless, from what I understand, most of what is now in WitP is not possible to backport into UV without a near total rewrite of the internals.

Don't hold your breath.....

Want to explain Matrix and (PacWar/Steel Panthers)?

Reguardless I vote for Bomb Alley but, will it use the UV or Witp engine?? If it uses the UV engine then upgrading it and converting it to Bomb Alley may make sense, then matrix has two games to sell(UV II and Bomb Alley). Witp by it's size and time requirements maybe a turn off to some but, a revamped UV and Bomb Alley with TCP/IP play may be a better sell.

Would you buy a revamped UV with a working editor and tcp/ip play?

< Message edited by pad152 -- 6/16/2004 4:28:37 AM >

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 40

RE: UV retrofit - 6/16/2004 7:28:48 AM

Dukemourn

Posts: 50
Joined: 6/11/2004
Status: offline

New WIR gets my vote

(in reply to pad152)

Post #: 41

RE: UV retrofit - 6/16/2004 7:34:49 AM

MadmanRick

Posts: 579
Joined: 4/9/2004
From: New York City, U.S.A.
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I vote wholeheartedly for Bomballey!

Madman

(in reply to Dukemourn)

Post #: 42

RE: UV retrofit - 6/16/2004 7:40:56 AM

bilbow

Posts: 741
Joined: 8/22/2002
From: Concord NH
Status: offline

I'd like to see the known bugs in UV fixed. There's a place for this game, even with WITP, especially if it is to be marketed as an into to the big game. Then move on to UV Med.

_____________________________

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile- hoping it will eat him last
- Winston Churchill

(in reply to MadmanRick)

Post #: 43

RE: UV retrofit - 6/16/2004 8:00:02 AM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

Gee, better not tell that to all the non-profit businesses out there.

LOL! Talk about an oxymoron. Non-profit "business" like my 501c3 high school band booster are SOCIAL ORGANIZTIONS, not businesses!!! You go into business to MAKE MONEY. No debate. Businesses are NOT charities and they are not social organizations. They exist for one and ONLY one reason. To MAKE THEIR OWNERS MONEY. No debate, period.

quote:

Yeah, supporting your product is a sure ticket to failure. What kind of crack are you smoking? I work for a company that continues to support their products for 10 years after release. If, after WitP has been out for a while, the majority of players is calling for WitP patches instead of UV patches then I can accept that but that doesn't seem to be the case now. They should support the product that is out there now.

No crack, just REALITY. UV was a FEASABILITY STUDY project. To see if a game with that design could work, sell and be popular enough to warrant the REAL product, WitP. I support my products, too. But my customers pay $500,000 per license and $50,000-$100,000 maintenance contract for. These are $50-$70 mass market, low end consumer apps, not even in the class of MS Office. The economics of the game software business in no way resemble verticle market software or commercial boxed mass-market software. UV has already been patched multiple times. It now has a successor, WitP.
Just like Oracle stopping support for Oracle 8i when 9i shipped, UV will go out of support once WitP, its successor, ships. MS no longer supports Win 3.1, Win95, or Win98, NT 3.51, or NT 4.0, why should 2x3 support a obsoleted product????

quote:

Spoken like a guy who didn't even buy UV. We vote with our wallets so since you haven't voted be quiet and let the adults speak.

Hmm.... I just finished a UV scenario last week. It was a nice game. But now it is OBSOLETE.

quote:

Ever since you came to our forum all you've done is criticize people. You started with the developers' lack of skill and now I see you've branched out from there. Go back to whatever grave you crawled out of, Zombie.

Actually, in this case, I am backing the decisions of 2x3 to no longer provide updates to UV once WitP ships as now it seems the improvement made in WitP are virtually impossible to backport to UV. It simply makes good business sense. Fortune 500 software firms obsolete versions all the time. Oracle 9i goes out of support at the end of next year after being out only a little over 3 years! Bye, bye UV. Nice knowing ya!!!! LOL!!!!

And yea, it's a real pisser to get a 25 year software development veteran with a critical eye on these game forums, isn't it. Most of what I say is CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. I have nothing but respect for the work ethic of the developers and testers, but I reserve the right to offer constructive criticsms based on two and half decades of experience developing and managing and selling software for all sorts of enterprises, large and small.

< Message edited by ZOOMIE1980 -- 6/16/2004 6:10:49 AM >

(in reply to Damien Thorn)

Post #: 44

RE: UV retrofit - 6/16/2004 8:04:35 AM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

quote:

Well, there is one and ONLY one viable reason to EVER go into business. And that includes the computer gaming business.

To make money, period. If the work does not have much hope of generating additional profit, short or long term for the company then the work is a waste of time. 2X3 is NOT a hobby for its principals, it is a business. If they indeed "promised" a post WitP patch, then they have their reputation at stake, which can be directly tied to long term profitablity. But I don't recall such a promise, and regardless, from what I understand, most of what is now in WitP is not possible to backport into UV without a near total rewrite of the internals.

Don't hold your breath.....

Want to explain Matrix and (PacWar/Steel Panthers)?

Reguardless I vote for Bomb Alley but, will it use the UV or Witp engine?? If it uses the UV engine then upgrading it and converting it to Bomb Alley may make sense, then matrix has two games to sell(UV II and Bomb Alley). Witp by it's size and time requirements maybe a turn off to some but, a revamped UV and Bomb Alley with TCP/IP play may be a better sell.

Would you buy a revamped UV with a working editor and tcp/ip play?

Well since the entire UV game is probably going to be a WitP scenario, I can't find any reason I would buy a UV II if I already had WitP. But if I didn't, I might opt for it, but only at a fraction of the cost of "Big Guy".

(in reply to pad152)

Post #: 45

RE: UV retrofit - 6/16/2004 8:16:56 AM

bradfordkay

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline

I disagree with the idea that UV will be a throwaway after WITP is released. I happened to really like the scale of UV, and it covers my favorite part of the Pacific War, so I will probably continue to play that game as well.

That being said, if it comes to a choice, UV Med (isn't Bomb Alley copyrighted by someone other than Matrix? If not, great!) is my choice over another UV patch. I happy enough with UV as is, though that might change after I get my hands on WITP...

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 46

RE: UV retrofit - 6/16/2004 8:25:05 AM

Joel Billings

Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline

All I can say right now for sure is that if we do Med War (and we've started initial database work) it will be roughly 30 mile hexes but will start from the WitP code base. Thus it will have all the WitP features, adjusted to a 30 mile hex (since it's a much smaller area than the half the globe shown in WitP). Next month after WitP has hit the streets we'll sit down and figure out what we can or can't do with UV vs WitP. My gut tells me that features will not be brought to UV as the time it would take to do it (if even possible)would make no sense for anyone interested in our games except those that will only own UV (and if there are many of those people in the world we won't be in business next year

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 47

RE: UV retrofit - 6/16/2004 8:25:39 AM

Von Rom

Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
Status: offline

I do remember awhile ago that a retro patch to UV was mentioned.

If it doesn't take a lot of work or time, then one last patch to retro fit a few things from WiTP as well as fixing some of the most obvious bugs would be very welcome.

So far, Matrix and 2by3 have gone above and beyond the call of duty in supporting their games. Few companies still do this type of post-game support.

I don't think UV will be a throw away game: it's a smaller version of WiTP with different scales, and some people might prefer it to the WiTP monster, especially for PBEM games.

There is no reason why, with a retro patch, that Matrix cannot still sell UV for those customers who might prefer the smaller scale level of UV. After all, can we ever have too many games about the Pacific War?

I plan on keeping and playing UV for quite some time

That is a testament to the quality of work that went into it.

Cheers!

< Message edited by Von Rom -- 6/16/2004 6:32:11 AM >

_____________________________

(in reply to bradfordkay)

Post #: 48

RE: UV retrofit - 6/16/2004 8:44:44 AM

Onime No Kyo

Posts: 16842
Joined: 4/28/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kid

Quik poll , would you rather we patch UV or work on Bomb Alley?

Bomb what?!

(in reply to siRkid)

Post #: 49

RE: UV retrofit - 6/16/2004 8:48:16 AM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

All I can say right now for sure is that if we do Med War (and we've started initial database work) it will be roughly 30 mile hexes but will start from the WitP code base. Thus it will have all the WitP features, adjusted to a 30 mile hex (since it's a much smaller area than the half the globe shown in WitP). Next month after WitP has hit the streets we'll sit down and figure out what we can or can't do with UV vs WitP. My gut tells me that features will not be brought to UV as the time it would take to do it (if even possible)would make no sense for anyone interested in our games except those that will only own UV (and if there are many of those people in the world we won't be in business next year ).

You guys really need to consider doing a Java based port of these games. Or a using the engine logic, adapt it to a an OOP design and do it in Java. Bring in all those MAC and Linux guys. Anyone with a JVM (anything that runs on any computer these days) can then play these games. If there is a genre that is begging for a JAVA implementation, it is the turn based wargame.

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 50

RE: UV retrofit - 6/16/2004 8:55:04 AM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

I do remember awhile ago that a retro patch to UV was mentioned.

If it doesn't take a lot of work or time, then one last patch to retro fit a few things from WiTP as well as fixing some of the most obvious bugs would be very welcome.

So far, Matrix and 2by3 have gone above and beyond the call of duty in supporting their games. Few companies still do this type of post-game support.

I don't think UV will be a throw away game: it's a smaller version of WiTP with different scales, and some people might prefer it to the WiTP monster, especially for PBEM games.

There is no reason why, with a retro patch, that Matrix cannot still sell UV for those customers who might prefer the smaller scale level of UV. After all, can we ever have too many games about the Pacific War?

I plan on keeping and playing UV for quite some time

That is a testament to the quality of work that went into it.

Cheers!

As with everything, it an economic decision. I don't know that much about the internals of UV vs the current WitP, but from the info we have, WitP has advanced to the degree that there's not much ability to easily backport WitP stuff back into UV. I wouldn;t count on much WitP technology ever showing up in UV. When the guys only have two programmers, and one on loan, there's not much wiggle room in there for working on old stuff.

And hopefully, for these developers, it is a lesson learned in fundemental system design. They really need to make an effort to making the kernel (engine) a bit more flexible, a lot "softer", so that it makes catching older games up a LOT easier, so there is still some sales potential long after intial release.

PS.... JAVA or wxWindows, and MySQL for data management guys.....take a look. It's worth your while.

< Message edited by ZOOMIE1980 -- 6/16/2004 6:56:08 AM >

(in reply to Von Rom)

Post #: 51

RE: UV retrofit - 6/16/2004 9:51:09 AM

soeren

Posts: 69
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Bayern/Germany
Status: offline

Bomb Alley

(in reply to siRkid)

Post #: 52

RE: UV retrofit - 6/16/2004 9:52:04 AM

Rainerle

Posts: 463
Joined: 7/24/2002
From: Burghausen/Bavaria
Status: offline

Just fix the excessive pilot replacement bug - Please, pleeaaaasssseeeee !!!!

How about developing UV into something where WitP scenarios can be played on a smaller scale something like: 'UV II-Scenario-pack for WitP' (discount for UV and WitP users

)

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 53

RE: UV retrofit - 6/16/2004 4:02:19 PM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rainerle

Just fix the excessive pilot replacement bug - Please, pleeaaaasssseeeee !!!!

How about developing UV into something where WitP scenarios can be played on a smaller scale something like: 'UV II-Scenario-pack for WitP' (discount for UV and WitP users)

Yea, that sounds pretty good. I imagine, though, if it is not already in the shipping version, it will not be long before a lot of the UV scenarios start show up in this game.

(in reply to Rainerle)

Post #: 54

RE: UV retrofit - 6/16/2004 5:43:03 PM

elmo3

Posts: 5820
Joined: 1/22/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

...Next month after WitP has hit the streets we'll sit down and figure out what we can or can't do with UV vs WitP. My gut tells me that features will not be brought to UV as the time it would take to do it (if even possible)would make no sense for anyone interested in our games except those that will only own UV (and if there are many of those people in the world we won't be in business next year ).

You guys have done a fine job supporting UV and IMO it's time to move on. However, having said that, a final patch to correct any known UV bugs without porting any new features would be appreciated.

FWIW after that my vote would be for a new WiR rather than Bomb Alley.

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 55

RE: UV retrofit - 6/16/2004 6:09:38 PM

Deathtreader

Posts: 1039
Joined: 4/22/2003
From: Vancouver, Canada.
Status: offline

Hi all,

There is the genesis of a GREAT idea here................ if the WITP editor & engine support the creation of new maps at different scales ala The Operational Art of War series (possible future patch if not with version 1.00, or an expansion pack for those interested) then it might well be possible for us gamers to do do our own UV retrofit equivalent scenarios at the 30 mile hex scale. Especially in light of the straw poll on this thread where a revamped War in Russia seems to be garnering more support than Bomb Alley. If Bomb Alley never sees the light of day

, then we could do that too...........
I don't know. maybe I'm just dreaming

, What does everyone else think about it??

Rob.

_____________________________

So we're at war with the Russkies eh?? I suppose we really ought to invade or something. (Lonnnng pause while studying the map)
Hmmmm... big place ain't it??
- Sir Harry Flashman (1854)

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 56

RE: UV retrofit - 6/16/2004 6:45:00 PM

MadmanRick

Posts: 579
Joined: 4/9/2004
From: New York City, U.S.A.
Status: offline

IMHO, I think the only feature I would seriously care about seeing ported from WiTP back to UV would be the new, improved editor

. Barring that improvement, I doubt that I will personally continue to spend much time on UV. The reasons for this have little to do with UV itself, but more with the fact that WiTP is what I've longed for

since SPI's monster board game became too impractical for me to set-up and play. When SSG's Carriers At War was released, I played the game to death, but the lack of a campaign mode

was eventually the death blow to that game for me. I can honestly say that if I spend anywhere near the time playing WiTP, that I have on UV, then I will have NO need for another game for at least 2 years or so (probably more...). In fact, the only other game I've played besides UV in the past year, is Baseball Mogul 2004/5 (which is a great game to play when one has but a few minutes).

Madman

(in reply to Blackwatch_it)

Post #: 57

RE: UV retrofit - 6/16/2004 7:03:22 PM

Ron Saueracker

Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline

For UV, any bugs remaining that WITP cleared up, the pilot bug for instance, should be fixed. Maybe the ship refits if it is simple since they are sooo cool. Aside from that, on to Bomb Alley or any other game which puts some money into the coffers. These boys did us all a favour with WITP, let UV stand on it's own from there.

_____________________________

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to MadmanRick)

Post #: 58

RE: UV retrofit - 6/16/2004 7:07:54 PM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline

quote:

For UV, any bugs remaining that WITP cleared up, the pilot bug for instance, should be fixed. Maybe the ship refits if it is simple since they are sooo cool. Aside from that, on to Bomb Alley or any other game which puts some money into the coffers. These boys did us all a favour with WITP, let UV stand on it's own from there.

Don't think the pilot bug can be fixed in UV Ron, remember just how many iterations we had to go through to actually fix it in WitP

Really, the only clear ones I can see fixing are: CV vs CV air problems (3 bugs) and bombing hexes with friendly troops.

Since they affect both sides equally, they just change the play a bit, if it was a Japan only or a Allied only bug, I'd see a lot more merit to it.

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)

Post #: 59

RE: UV retrofit - 6/16/2004 7:13:40 PM

Ron Saueracker

Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline

As for future game ideas...

A Harpoonesque tactical sim based around the "heyday" of the Cold War, 1945-75. All the "nifty fifties" toys so rarely covered. Perhaps even on a strategic level. HUGE!

More realistically. If GGs World in Flames is a success, perhaps it can be modified to handle the Cold War and perhaps even the Pax Britannica period with all the naval developments associated with it.

Juuuust rambling....

_____________________________

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)

Post #: 60

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RE: UV retrofit