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- 12/29/2001 6:32:00 AM

Capt. Pixel

Posts: 1219
Joined: 10/15/2001
From: Tucson, AZ
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Languages are a funny thing. Each of them evolves and changes as social pressures change. If the pressure is more or less stable, a language will survive many years without much change. If the pressure becomes extreme, (more so, or less so), then the language may undergo radical changes in a short period of time. Extreme examples of this would include a language totally dying out due to destruction of its supporting society, or a language (Latin, for instance, or 'eg.' for those that care) that has existed unchanged for centuries. Is this because of a minimum of change in Catholic Church supporting structure, perhaps?

In the United States, since the turn of the century, we have seen a unique experiment in the blending (or blenderizing?

)of people from all over the planet. Each culture has brought with it, not only their verbal languages, but also their physical language and cultural expressions such as Theology, diet, and others (et al - I love doing that. Who says Latin is dead?) Speaking of physical language, I understand the meaning of the three-knuckle BOHICA (Bend Over Here I Comes Again), also known as "The Italian Wave". But can anyone tell me where the American abbreviation, which consists of a fist with the longest finger sticking straight out and up, comes from? (I find myself curious about the strangest things sometimes) Anyway, the USA (United States of America - hmm maybe it started there?

) is throwing this big, century long party, and mingeled into the mix is Technology. Drum Rolllll. Everybody gets to go wherever they want (mobility), and multi-media is thrust at them from nearly every direction (communication).

This planet has seen an increase in technology that is unparalleled in it's history. The pressure to name new devices and try to maintain a verbal language that's descriptive and flexible without being overly cumbersome to speak on any regular basis, is intense. The more common, (older), examples of this phenomena include: TV - television, Car (?) - automobile, Plane - Airplane. "She's a TV" doesn't mean that "she's a television". The context is defined by the object, 'she'. A more likely translation in this example might be "She's a trans-vestite" (a person who wears clothing of the opposite sex). "Go get the plane" This could mean: "Go get the airplane" or "Go get the plane" (a carpenters tool for shaving wood). The audience must decide. And underlying problem that non-native English speakers may not realize, is that many times native speakers don't understand what they're talking about because of cross-definitions of acronyms (phrases abbreviated to several representative letters). (VD is a fine example. Venerial Disease or Vehicle Dust). Or, the speaker misuses or misspells the word. Examples like 'to', 'too' and 'two' and (my personal favorites) 'there', 'their' and 'they're', are rife in electronic communications. Collectively, we've become too lazy to bother with utilizing the established rules of the English language. It becomes the reponsibility of the audience to determine the appropriate context of the discussion. If the audience doesn't understand the context, or has an overwhelming urge to only recognize a single context, then the message is not traveling from the speaker to the audience clearly. This is where the real shame of this language modification (ie. abbreviations, acronyms) lies. If you're not communicating clearly because of a confusion of terms, then this form of communication will eventually die out. It's not efficient. I don't, however believe that it will completely disappear. Too many abbreviations and angelicized terms have infiltrated into the worlds societies to expire completely. Also, our form of communicating has been modified through the Internet. Sometimes, witty or snide or totally inocuous comments can be mis-interpreted as witless, snide or inocuous comments, to the detriment of the audience. So we (the collective 'we', meaning, of course, all persons of race, creed or color or sexual persuasion, without impyling an reduced consideration for anyone not mentioned in the aforementioned list - TCWMOCAPORCOCOSPWIARCFANMITAL), have started to include emoticons (smiley/angry/stupid faces) to forward a 'physical' expression along with the text. It used to be that we'd use proper punctuation, spelling and grammar to express ourselves. But that seems to have fallen by the way-side. Which of the above examples of a disclaimer do YOU prefer?

I swear (really, I do!), the english language changes on a daily basis. Even those of us who claim to be native speakers, (40+ years here, I think I started talking late - took a few years to understand this gibberish), can't keep up with all the new, old, discarded, re-invented, resurrected, 50's, retro-, this '-speak', that '-speak'. We just 'Keep on Truckin'

My advice to non-native English speakers is "Don't sweat the small stuff" (what the h**l does he mean by that?? - don't give consideration to the small things in your life).
If your message is getting through (not 'thru'

) to your audience, then you're accomplishing your goal. You're doing at least as well as a native speaker.

By the way, those of you with command of multiple languages have my enduring awe. As many of you may know, foreign language is not a required course in most USA schools. As a result, I believe Americans have suffered severely in their humanities educations. To know a socities language is the first insight into their hearts and minds. For those of you who bothered to read this entire diatribe - thanks for the soapbox, I hope it was clear enough for everyone here in the forum to understand, and for any punctuation errors, I apologize. This was fun - I should ramble more often - NOT!

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Post #: 31

- 12/29/2001 7:55:00 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
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Who cares why this thread began, Cpt Pixel that was a very well done post.

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Post #: 32

- 12/29/2001 7:04:00 PM

richmonder

Posts: 158
Joined: 12/9/2001
From: Richmond, VA USA
Status: offline

That was an excellent post! I wonder how my deceased aunt, who was a guest speaker and teacher at Oxford (English teacher), would respond to the continuing 'evolution' of the English language. Indeed, some even feel it's a disintegration. I especially liked the part about the social 'pressures' affecting a language's status, for lack of a better, more accurate term. I'd never quite thought of it that way, but in fact that is something that influences a language. PC? PC - me? (Break out the Dr. Seuss) PC.
PC-me?
Could that be - a PC me?
PC this, PC that,
PC make me wanna take a shat. OK, so I won't be doing any books anytime soon. Seriously - or half-heartedly - I'm not trying to be PC. Never, thank you (but I don't want to be callous, either). I probably will be way ahead of many non-US peoples in line when it comes to smacking the US culture. But I was trying to avert a flame war, Pax27 - that's all. Of late - when that discussion had gone down - the board was getting a bit testy over the v7.0 upheaval and I was getting frayed myself. So I hope you understand. To be forthright, unless you live in the USA, you have no idea how annoying it can be at times. You *think* you know as an outsider, but trust me - you do not. :-)

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Post #: 33

- 12/29/2001 8:48:00 PM

RichardTheFirst

Posts: 466
Joined: 10/17/2001
From: Alg�s, Lisbon - Portugal
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Yeah, excellent post. Is long enough and have many 5 dollar words, TYVM (thank you very much). Either we get abbreviations or we have to go to the dictionary all the time. Jezz... I'm developing my English a lot, because so far this thread is the one that made me go more often to the dictionary. After all my English sucks and I didn't know...

[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: RichardTheFirst ]

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Post #: 34

- 12/30/2001 8:41:00 AM

fat slob

Posts: 18
Joined: 9/20/2001
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by pax27:

I guess it was, I was just so annoyed when someone turned this thread political that I didn�t check whoever that was.
)

Hypocrite!
You are the one that turned it political when you said: "It's bad enough when Americans use abbreviations..." So is using abbreviations worse than being a hypocrite to a Swede?

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Post #: 35

- 12/30/2001 8:47:00 AM

fat slob

Posts: 18
Joined: 9/20/2001
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by pax27:
Someone�s got a sensitive ego if this thread can be described as "American bashing".

It's not possible that it has anything to do with having a sensitive ego, since I happen to be Canadian and not American.
But using acronyms has nothing at all to do with being American as you and others have insinuated.
It has everything to do with the Internet which happens to be frequented by a lot of English speakers which includes America, England, Australia, Canada...well, you get the idea.
:-)

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Post #: 36

- 12/30/2001 9:04:00 AM

jonypure

Posts: 21
Joined: 11/8/2001
From: Montana
Status: offline

I'm now just getting into this game and for the longest time "PBEM" was an abbreviation that had no known definition. I finaly came across the meaning when I got tired of playing the A1. Thanks to those who brought this to light and those who posted the list's that sit comfortably in my briefcase for reference. But you both forgot "PBEM".
Happy Holidays

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Post #: 37

- 12/30/2001 9:20:00 AM

Tomanbeg

Posts: 4385
Joined: 7/14/2000
From: Memphis, Tn, CSA
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by RichardTheFirst:
It always amused me and amased me the fact that Americans and British people use abbreviations so much. You must be the ones who use this the most in the entire world . It is not a critic, just a fact. I always regarded it as an extra challenge and I didn’t mind much. But today I just decided to begin asking when I don't understand an abbreviation. After all I wasn't born English and I have no obligation to understand everything. The English Language is already difficult as it is sometimes and there is no dictionary that I know for abbreviations. I'm also a bit tired to read threads that begins to interest me and abandon the reading because it suddenly turns out too difficult to understand what I'm reading. Doesn't pay the effort. Some abbreviations are easy for us non-English-speaking people to understand both because they became very common (ASAP, BTW, etc) and others are common "part of the game" expressions (TOE, OOB). But some one really needs to think a lot before one gets it, and even then sometimes couldn't be completely sure (does IMO means "In My Opinion"?). Have you English speakers ever consider the implications when you write an abbreviation or you do that on purpose, as a way to try to keep things among yourselves?
I'm just curious...

No. English speakers cannot ever consider implications. There is no need to anyway, that is what the French do. The Jargon of anagrams(or is it acronyms? help me Ben)is mostly an Americian thing. Allstair Cooke has done several 'letters from america' on it. Go To BBC and do a search. It is mostly a time saver. It is a lot faster to Type IMO then 'In My Opinon' IIRC then If I Remember Correctly, FOTFLMAO then Rolling on the Floor, Laughing My Ass Off. Cooke Said this corruption of English started during WW2, when there were a lot of young americans in England.
And you can either ask, or look it up. Someone (one of the Universities, Carnagie-Mellon I think) has an online dictionary of 'net slang'
If we want to keep things among ourselves, English is a superb language for talking around a subject without ever actually talking about the subject. It is not considered polite, however. And then there is Pig Latin. My Brothers and I used to speak pig latin while riding the subway in Tokoyo. Drive the JN's(Japanese Nationals) right up the wall. Pig Latin is a way of changing order and emphisis (syllabication?) while speaking American that makes it imposible to understand unless it is your native language. Here, try one. Ig-Pay atin-Lay is ard-HAy. And English isn't that hard, Try Fortran some time.
T.(who left you a clue)

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Post #: 38

- 12/30/2001 8:20:00 PM

RichardTheFirst

Posts: 466
Joined: 10/17/2001
From: Alg�s, Lisbon - Portugal
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quote:

Originally posted by jonypure:
But you both forgot "PBEM".
Happy Holidays

PBEM means "Play By E-Mail", Jony. And BTW (by the way) welcome to the Fans (read your message).

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Post #: 39

- 12/31/2001 7:38:00 AM

Capt. Pixel

Posts: 1219
Joined: 10/15/2001
From: Tucson, AZ
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RichardTheFirst (or RTF as some refer to you)

Yes that contained many 5 dollar words and, no doubt, confusion among some less adept in the language. Four decades of attempted literacy will do that to you.

We don't EVEN want to discuss how much those words cost me in 70's dollars.

I only speak and write one language fluently (?), so I figure that I should always give it my best attempt. It's not that you've said or implied anything that irritated me. In fact, quite the opposite. It got me to thinking about general use of our language in today's culture. It seems that not only abbreviation in terms of letters, but in terms of whole or partial word combinations, too. "wassup?" translates to - what is happening in your life???

And if that wasn't enough, we find ourselves so short of syllabizations that we fill in the 'dead air space' with invective phrases such as WTF, G@d%mn, f##kin, and many, many others. If efficiency of communication was a driving criteria, then why add in the useless (and offensive) additional words? Is it common in other languages to add many (and I mean many) swear words to their everyday conversation? (Like parents talking to children, for instance) It's kind of sad, yet interesting, to watch a language that is currently so dynamic literally build itself up and tear itself down over the period of just a few decades. But it's fascinating to me.

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Post #: 40

- 12/31/2001 9:13:00 AM

panda124c

Posts: 1692
Joined: 5/23/2000
From: Houston, TX, USA
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quote:

Originally posted by RichardTheFirst:
PBEM means "Play By E-Mail", Jony. And BTW (by the way) welcome to the Fans (read your message).

Oh joy and acronyms within an acronyms. Actually PBEM stands for "Play By Electronic Mail".

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Post #: 41

- 1/1/2002 11:22:00 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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Here is a funny variation on the subject. I have in many cases found it most pleasing when heaping my displeasure on my target, to intentionally and deliberately totally refrained from uttering even so much as a single common swear word such that I in most cases completely confound and doubly insult the person by providing them with the annoyance of having been insulted in a way that they were not even able to completely understand (run on sentence intentional hehe). I call it revenge of the intellectuals. I could say the favourite F word phrase, but I so much prefer to inform them that I would much rather enjoy them performing an anatomically impossible act upon themselves. Well actually I normally get a lot more creative than that heeh. Abbreviations I think, (where language barrier is not a point of defense for a native speaker) are more for the intellectually challenged (I believe the laymans term would be "stupid").

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Post #: 42

- 1/2/2002 2:03:00 AM

pax27

Posts: 126
Joined: 10/19/2001
From: Sweden
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I set of a fire here.
Well, we are all entitled to an opinion, and that�s great.
To be honest with you richmonder, I think that there are few countries in the world that takes the same pride in their nation than Americans. And why not, I�m not objecting to that, it�s just a little hard sometimes to get your voice heard when you come from a proud population of 9 million. What�s that, Manhattans population at the most. But I think we�ve sorted things out now, and no respect is lost richmonder.
Obviously I�ll have to respond to fat slobs "attacks".

quote:

Hypocrite!
You are the one that turned it political when you said: "It's bad enough when Americans use abbreviations..." So is using abbreviations worse than being a hypocrite to a Swede?

I really thought that I was making a joke here. I was beeing ironical to the importance of this enormous problem with abbreviations. This was just one of those threads were I could write away a little, getting a little to the side of WW2 for a moment.
And seriosly, if you choked this much on my post, trying to kick me in the nuts with that last question, grow up! I Was Making An Innocent Ironical Little Friggin Comment For The Sake Of All Things Holy!!! (or IWMAIILFCFTSOATH to the Abbrevasionists)

quote:

It's not possible that it has anything to do with having a sensitive ego, since I happen to be Canadian and not American.
But using acronyms has nothing at all to do with being American as you and others have insinuated.
It has everything to do with the Internet which happens to be frequented by a lot of English speakers which includes America, England, Australia, Canada...well, you get the idea.
:-)

OK, I give up. No man, woman or child uses any abbreviations/acronyms more than any other. Now we now, good for us, peace on earth! [ January 01, 2002: Message edited by: pax27 ]

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Post #: 43

- 1/2/2002 2:21:00 AM

pax27

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From: Sweden
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a few helpfull links to us folks that can have trouble with abbreviations
The WorldWideWeb Acronym and Abbreviation Server
THE CANONICAL ABBREVIATION/ACRONYM LIST
Abbreviations and Character Codes
Acronym & Abbreviation Meanings -- Business & Technical
pi's Yet Another List of Bloody Acronyms

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Post #: 44

- 1/2/2002 2:39:00 AM

Tomanbeg

Posts: 4385
Joined: 7/14/2000
From: Memphis, Tn, CSA
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quote:

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1:
Here is a funny variation on the subject. I have in many cases found it most pleasing when heaping my displeasure on my target, to intentionally and deliberately totally refrained from uttering even so much as a single common swear word such that I in most cases completely confound and doubly insult the person by providing them with the annoyance of having been insulted in a way that they were not even able to completely understand (run on sentence intentional hehe). I call it revenge of the intellectuals. I could say the favourite F word phrase, but I so much prefer to inform them that I would much rather enjoy them performing an anatomically impossible act upon themselves. Well actually I normally get a lot more creative than that heeh. Abbreviations I think, (where language barrier is not a point of defense for a native speaker) are more for the intellectually challenged (I believe the laymans term would be "stupid").

Pretty good Les. My best was while driving a cab in St. Pete florida. I was headed for the same hole is traffic as some guy in a shiny new Jag. I beat him there(horsepoewer edge, plus one more dent in the old dodge would not have been noticed, which was not the case for his pretty new Jag). He was a sore loser, and showed me which of his fingers was the longest while suggesting I had carnal knowledge of my direct ancestor from the maternal side of my family tree(not the words he used). Not to be outdone by some effete snob in a Jag, I wished him a nice day and expressed my hope that he would 'have a heart attack and die while performing mutual anal sex with his brother.' My fare enjoyed this immensly, giving me $50 for a $16 dollar ride and saying keep the change. 'Course first I had to help get his fingers out of the back of the front seat, but that is life in the tropics.
T.

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Post #: 45

- 1/2/2002 3:56:00 AM

RichardTheFirst

Posts: 466
Joined: 10/17/2001
From: Alg�s, Lisbon - Portugal
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I read these last posts with delight after this "almost out of net days" where I felt really old as never before. Just turned 40. But I guess this will pass eventually

. So if you excuse my status after being drinking all the time since last year, I would like to address you all (feeling expansive here now): Pax: you are in my mood, man (btw (by the way) did u (YOU) just turned forty 2 (too)?

) Will try to have a look at those pages ASAP (as soon as possible). Les: always found you very difficult to follow, sorry to be so frank, but that 1st paragraph superseded all

. Then I read the rest and understood your point

. My point is, always was, and always will be: why abbreviations that are supposed to make things simpler are used to make it more complicated?, why talk fancy?, why b**s**t all the time?. You gave me an answer but in my opinion that could be applied legitimately (and with the discount of humour) only once or twice. Not good if you make a life style out of it. I understand we should use the full resources of our (yours) languages fully but maybe not in an international community.

Capt Pixel: I'm glad you understood. Happened that your post was a good example for what I wanted to say. But I really liked and agree with what you said. And by the way I think the abbreviations are everywhere, just recently I received an ELECTRONIC (thanks PBear) Mail from a SPWAW Portuguese fan that is probably even worst than most of the things I've seen here. richmonder: Man, I really appreciate you. Full of goodwill yet very defensive when someone is attacking America. Just kidding, man. I did like your posts. fat slob: Man, you do like to pick up fights. Want to come here? I need someone to practise my karate and alleviate my stress... Why does a Canadian need to initiate the American bashing theme?

Just teasing you, I would love to challenge you for a nice game of squash, nothing is better for the stress. Final message (this is going long enough, thanks for understanding my mood): LET'S BE REALISTIC. THIS IS A TRULY INTERNATIONAL SITE. ENGLISH IS OUR MEAN OF COMMUNICATION. ASK YOURSELF JUST A SIMPLE QUESTION: DO YOU REALLY WANT TO COMMUNICATE? [ January 01, 2002: Message edited by: RichardTheFirst ]

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Post #: 46

- 1/2/2002 4:53:00 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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Just to make things clear (clarity is always what it is). I hate abrviations because I havent got time to waste learning them (I find it easy enough to just use the real word actually) Every word I use is on average easily found in an average english dictionary. To my foreign origins friends, best way to learn english is from someone actually using it I guess. Apologies if I sometimes post messages that tax your english capacity. The words are easier to manage though, while trying to learn them with more than just the first letters of a string of words. I by the way try to refrain from specifically targeting posters by name. It only leads to hurt feelings. Feelings you say? Yep, havent met a person yet in my life that doesnt get indignant when they are in anyway "corrected". To insert a 7.0 relevant snippet. Currently playing a reeeeeally cool Wild Bill Scenario. Thing has a reeeeally large map eh, thought the reinforcement Shermans would never stop showing up too.
Having a ball playing it guys. Have I noticed any errors.....hmmm to busy having fun to care a whit....and thats what is missing I think with to many posters eh.
I have been getting Shermans blasted yes, but I have slagged Panthers and Tigers alike with fairly humble means too. Just loved it when the air cover showed up in the nick of time to waste two King Tigers at the start of the battle. Bet any of the accuracy mongers havent enjoyed playing Steel Panthers half as much as me eh.
I am of the opinion, that I can take an inaccurately portrayed tank with an inaccurately portrayed gun both that are less than they should be, and still out do ya with an over rated tank (so there nyaaahhhh).

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Post #: 47

- 1/2/2002 5:40:00 AM

pax27

Posts: 126
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quote:

Pax: you are in my mood, man (btw (by the way) did u (YOU) just turned forty 2 (too)? ) Will try to have a look at those pages ASAP (as soon as possible).

Noooooo. No, no, no...NO!
I�m not even close. But now I feel old

And BTW (we all know this one by now), thou art wise Les the Sarge 9-1, picking on peoples English skills are a bit off, but as long as it�s made in good will, I think it�s fine. I for one like to get better on this whole writing-in-English bit.
But, like you wrote, who likes to be corrected no matter what�s at stake. I was always a poor speller myself, more of a talker

and I think I�ve misspelt more things in this post alone then most Americans do during their entire schoolyears. And I�ve had some trouble with thru/through, and tough, rough, you know, all those "ough"-kind of words. But for the sake of us all, I�m trying!