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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> The Lost Radar thread...

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The Lost Radar thread... - 2/17/2004 6:46:25 PM

Brady

Posts: 10701
Joined: 10/25/2002
From: Oregon,USA
Status: offline

One of the many lost threads was one covering the topic of how radar works in WiTP, if I remember corectly planes can not use low leval aproaches to avoid radar, now several posts mentioned how in the solomons the Japanese did come down on the deck to avoid radar detection, I dug this tid bit up today as well:

"b) Approach of Jap Dive Bombers and Torpedo Planes

In the two attacks on June 4th, the Japanese planes apparently came in at low altitude to avoid Radar detection until they were within 40-50 miles and then commenced climbing. This is quite different from the Coral Sea Battle when the Jap Attack Group came in as a unit at high altitude and were picked up 68 miles out. This time we picked the two attacks up at 46 and 33 miles with the Radar comment that they appeared to be climbing. "

Taken from:

http://www.history.navy.mil/docs/wwii/mid7.htm

Post #: 1

RE: The Lost Radar thread... - 2/17/2004 9:11:47 PM

rogueusmc

Posts: 4583
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: Texas...what country are YOU from?
Status: offline

This will be an interesting thread. I still haven't figured out the radar situation in UV. I haven't found any capability specs for the different radars.

_____________________________

There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and the enemy. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion.

Gen. William Thornson, U.S. Army

(in reply to Brady)

Post #: 2

RE: The Lost Radar thread... - 2/17/2004 10:22:32 PM

Capt. Harlock

Posts: 5358
Joined: 9/15/2001
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline

The evolving capability of (especially allied) radar is a good point. Not only surface ship and airstrike detection improved, but also ASW search was much more capable by the later part of the war.

One other point: the range of an airplane changes significantly with altitude (easier to go through thinner air). Will there be a range penalty for low-level strikes?

_____________________________

Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

--Victor Hugo

(in reply to rogueusmc)

Post #: 3

RE: The Lost Radar thread... - 2/17/2004 10:37:06 PM

pad152

Posts: 2871
Joined: 4/23/2000
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In UV some of the allied base support units have radar, more fighters will be launched against incomming air strikes.
and ships with radar will beform better in night suface battles.

(in reply to Capt. Harlock)

Post #: 4

RE: The Lost Radar thread... - 2/18/2004 12:40:26 AM

Nomad

Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

In UV some of the allied base support units have radar, more fighters will be launched against incomming air strikes.
and ships with radar will beform better in night suface battles.

Unfortunatly, in UV the USN seems to all most always detect IJN TFs with radar even
in mid 1942.

(in reply to pad152)

Post #: 5

RE: The Lost Radar thread... - 2/18/2004 3:53:44 AM

Oleg Mastruko

Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad
Unfortunatly, in UV the USN seems to all most always detect IJN TFs with radar even
in mid 1942.

Yes, in UV this seems like some sort of "default detection method" even if Radar is not present on Allied side.

I've seen some night surface battles when couple of my IJN DDs surprised lone MSW on a sweeping mission, or a DM on mine laying mission, and the battle starts with usual "Allied commander detects IJN force with Radar" and then "IJN lookouts spot...", despite the fact that lone MSW or DM wasn't really equipped with radar.

Since this was largerly a moot point cause Allied ships didn't stand a chance, never really fired a shot, I didn't report this as bug, though it obviously is some sort of bug.

Also, IJN ships never seem to detect anything with radar, although I've read of cases when IJN surface radar actually made the first contact for the night.

O.

(in reply to Nomad)

Post #: 6

RE: The Lost Radar thread... - 2/18/2004 4:04:18 AM

Brady

Posts: 10701
Joined: 10/25/2002
From: Oregon,USA
Status: offline

Japanese Radar types, From: http://www.combinedfleet.com/radar.htm

Air and Surface Search Radars
Type 11
Became Operational: June 1943
War Status: used operationally in war
Installed: ground shore fixed
Purpose: anti-air
Wavelength: 300 cm
Peak Output: 40 kw
Transmitter: parallel two wire
Receiver: UN-954
Detector: RE-3
Detected: aircraft, group at 250 km, single at 130 km
Weight: 8700 kg
Number Built: 30
Antennae: dipole array with mat type reflector, send and receive separate use

Type 12
Became Operational: April 1944
War Status: used operationally in war
Installed: ground movable
Purpose: anti-air
Wavelength: 200 cm and 150 cm
Peak Output: 5 kw
Transmitter: parallel two wire
Receiver: UN-954
Detector: RE-3
Detected: Aircraft, group at 100 km, single at 50 km
Weight: 6000 kg
Number Built: 50
Antennae: dipole array with mat type reflector, send and receive separate use

Type 13
Became Operational: March 1943
War Status: wide operational use in war
Installed: ground, surface ship and submarine portable
Purpose: anti-air
Wavelength: 200 cm
Peak Output: 10 kw
Transmitter: parallel two wire
Receiver: UN-954
Detector: n/a
Detected: aircraft, group at 100 km, single at 50 km
Weight: 110 kg
Number Built: 1000
Antennae: dipole array with mat type reflector, send and receive. common use

Type 14
Became Operational: May 1945
War Status: used operationally in war Installed: shore line ground target type
Purpose: long range anti-air
Wavelength: 600 cm
Peak Output: 100 kw
Transmitter: parallel two wire
Receiver: UN-954
Detector: n/a
Detected: aircraft, group at 360 km, single at 250 km
Weight: 30000
Number Built: 2
Antennae: unknown

Type 21
Became Operational: August 1943
War Status: used operationally in war
Installed: surface ship
Purpose: anti-air, surface detectionr
Wavelength: 150 cm
Peak Output: 5 kw
Transmitter: parallel two wire
Receiver: UN-954
Detector: RE-3
Detected: aircraft, group at 100 km, single at 70 km, surface ship (large) 20 km
Weight: 840 kg
Number Built: unknown, small number
Antennae: dipole array with mat type reflector, send and receive separate use
One source indicates only 1 set of this type built, but same source indicates it was installed on numerous ships. Type 21 first fitted to BB Ise in April 1942, Taiyo, Chuyo and Unyo in January 1943, others prior to August 1943. At least 30-40 sets built and used operationally.

Type 22
Became Operational: September 1944, see notes below
War Status: wide operational use in war
Installed: surface ships, submarines
Purpose: anti-air, surface dectection and gunnery control
Wavelength: 10 cm
Peak Output: 2 kw
Transmitter: magnetron
Receiver: crystal
Detector: n/a
Detected: aircraft, group at 35 km, single at 17 km, surface ship (large) 34.5 km
Weight: surface ships 1320 kg, submarines 2140 kg
Number Built: 300
Antennae: horn type, send and receive separate use
Type 22 fitted to Kazegumo and Makigumo in March 1942, Hamakaze in June 1942, Akigumo and Yugumo in July 1942, Kongo, Haruna and Hyuga in October 1942, Katori, Kashima and Kashii in June 43,Yamato and Musashi in October 1943, other destroyers prior to September 1944. In wide use by mid-to late 1944. Type 22 radard while not designed for gunnery control provided moderately accurate data for this purpose.

Airborne Search Radars

Type H-6
Became Operational: August 1942
War Status: used operationally in war
Installed: large flying boats, mid-sized attack planes
Purpose: air search and probably surface search as well
Wavelength: 200 cm
Peak Output: 3 kw
Transmitter: parallel two wire
Receiver: UN-954
Detector: n/a
Detected: aircraft, group at 100 km, single at 70 km
Weight: 110 kg
Number Built: 2000
Antennae: Yagi type, send and receive common use
This set probably did not come into commun use until 1944, and was mounted in H8K Emily flying boats, G4M2 Betty bombers, and others.

Type FM-1
Became Operational: September 1944
War Status: under preparation for practical use when war ended
Installed: four engine aircraft
Purpose: air search and probably surface search as well
Wavelength: 200 cm
Peak Output: 42 kw
Transmitter: parallel two wire
Receiver: UN-954
Detector: n/a
Detected: aircraft, group at 100 km, single at 70 km
Weight: 70 kg
Number Built: unknown
Antennae: Yagi type, send and receive common use

Type N-6
Became Operational: October 1944
War Status: experimental use
Installed: single engine 3 seat aircraft
Purpose: air search and probably surface search as well
Wavelength: 120 cm
Peak Output: 2 kw
Transmitter: parallel two wire
Receiver: UN-954
Detector: n/a
Detected: aircraft, group at 70 km, single at 50 km
Weight: 60 kg
Number Built: 20
Antennae: Yagi Type, send and receive common use

Type FM-3
Became Operational: June 1945
War Status: under preparation for practical use
Installed: single engine 3 seat aircraft
Purpose: air search and probably surface search as well
Wavelength: 200 cm
Peak Output: 2 kw
Transmitter: parallel two wire
Receiver: UN-954
Detector: n/a
Detected: aircraft, group at 70 km, single at 50 km
Weight: 60 kg
Number Built: 100
Antennae: Yagi Type, send and receive common use

Search and Gunfire Control Radars

Type 41
Became Operational: August 1943
War Status: used in war
Installed: ground anti-aircraft artillery
Purpose: anti-aircraft gunfire control
Wavelength: 150 cm
Peak Output: 13 kw
Transmitter: ring parallel two wire
Receiver: UN-954
Detector: n/a
Detected: aircraft, group at 40 km, single at 20 km
Weight: 5000 kg
Number Built: 50
Antennae: dipole array with mat type relector, send receive separate use

Type 42
Became Operational: October 1944
War Status: used in war
Installed: ground anti-aircraft artillery
Purpose: anti-aircraft gunfire control
Wavelength: 150 cm
Peak Output: 13 kw
Transmitter: ring parallel two wire Receiver: UN-954
Detector: n/a
Detected: aircraft, group at 40 km, single at 20 km
Weight: 5000 kg
Number Built: 60
Antennae: Yagi type, send and receive separate use

Type 43
Became Operational: July 1945
War Status: used in war
Installed: ground searchlight units
Purpose: searchlight control
Wavelength: 150 cm
Peak Output: 13 kw
Transmitter: ring parallel two wire
Receiver: UN-954
Detector: n/a
Detected: aircraft, group and single at 40 km
Weight: 500 kg
Number Built: 121
Antennae: Yagi type, send and receive separate use

Type 23
Became Operational: March 1944
War Status: not used
Installed: surface ships cruiser or larger
Purpose: anti-surface ship gunfire control
Wavelength: 60 cm
Peak Output: 5 kw
Transmitter: cavity resonance
Receiver: 2400
Detector: n/a
Detected: small surface ships 13 km
Weight: 1000 kg
Number Built: unknown
Antennae: parabola, send and receive common use

Type 31
Became Operational: March 1945
War Status: under preparation for practical use
Installed: ground shore batteries, surface ship cruiser size or larger
Purpose: anti-surface ship gunfire control
Wavelength: 10 cm
Peak Output: 2 kw
Transmitter: magnetron
Receiver: crystal
Detector: n/a
Detected: large surface ships 35 km
Weight: 1000 kg
Number Built: unknown
Antennae: parabola, send and receive common use

Type 32
Became Operational: September 1944
War Status: under preparation for practical use
Installed: ground shore batteries, heavy cruisers and battleships
Purpose: anti-surface ship gunfire control
Wavelength: 10 cm
Peak Output: 2 kw
Transmitter: magnetron
Receiver: crystal
Detector: n/a
Detected: large surface ships 30 km
Weight: 5000 kg
Number built: 60
Antennae: square horn, send and receive separate us

Type 33
Became Operational: August 1944
War Status: not used
Installed: surface ships
Purpose: anti-surface ship gunfire control
Wavelength: 10 cmr
Peak Output: 2 kw
Transmitter: magnetron
Receiver: crystal
Detector: n/a
Detected: small surface ship 13 km
Weight: 800 kg
Number Built: unknown
Antennae: round horn, send and receive separate use

Airborne Intercept Radars
FD-2
Became Operational: August 1944
War Status: not used
Installed: night fighters
Purpose: airborne detection and approach
Wavelength: 60 cm
Peak Output: 25 kw
Transmitter: cavity resonance
Receiver: 2400
Detector: n/a
Detected: aircraft 3 km, surface ship 10 km
Weight: 70 kg
Number Built: 100
Antennae: Yagi type, send and receive separate use

TAMA3
Became Operational: July 1945
War Status: under preparation for practical use
Installed: night fighters
Purpose: airborne detection and approach
Wavelength: 200 cm
Peak Output: 3 kw
Transmitter: parallel two wire
Receiver: UN-954
Detector: n/a
Detected: aircraft 3 km
Weight: 70 kg
Number Built: 10
Antennae: send and receive common use

Radar Guidance Units (Navigational and Detection Radar)
Type 61
Became Operational: April 1945
War Status: under preparation for practical use
Installed: important ground area
Purpose: enemy aircraft height and position measurement
Wavelength: 60 cm
Peak Output: 10 kw
Transmitter: shielded oscillator
Receiver: 2400
Detector: n/a
Detected: single aircraft 130 km
Weight: 15000 kg
Number Built: 1
Antennae: parabola, send and receive common use

Type 62
Became Operational: June 1945
War Status: under preparation for practical use
Installed: important ground area
Purpose: friendly aircraft position measurment
Wavelength: 200 cm
Peak Output: 10 kw
Transmitter: parallel two wir
Receiver: UN-954
Detector: n/a
Detected: single aircraft 100+ km
Weight: 3000 kg
Number Built: 1
Antennae: dipole array, send and receive common use

Type 63
Became Operational: unknown, possibly never
War Status: under preparation for practical use
Installed: important ground area
Purpose: long distance enemy position measurement
Wavelength: 300 cm
Peak Output: 40 kw
Transmitter: parallel two wire
Receiver: UN-954
Detector: RE-3
Detected: single aircraft 160 km
Weight: 8700 kg
Number Built: 1
Antennae: dipole array, send and receive common use

TH
Became Operational: July 1945
War Status: not used
Installed: shore installations
Purpose: apecial attack boat guidance
Wavelength: 150 cm
Peak Output: 13 kw
Transmitter: ring parallel two wire
Receiver: UN-954
Detector: n/a
Detected: small surface ship/attack boat less than 20 km
Weight: 500 kg
Number Built: unknown
Antennae: diplose array, send and receive common use

M-13
Became Operational: June 1945
War Status: not used
Installed: all types of aircraft
Purpose: IFF general aircraft use
Wavelength: 200 cm
Peak Output: 0.05 kw
Transmitter: coil and capacitor
Receiver: UN-955
Detector: n/a
Detected: 100 km from a small surface ship/attack boat
Weight: 10 kg
Number Built: 100
Antennae: bendback 1/4l

Type 51
Became Operational: unknown, possibly never
War Status: not used
Installed: four engine bombers
Purpose: navigational?, target detection?, large bomber use
Wavelength: 10 cm
Peak Output: 6 kw
Transmitter: magnetron
Receiver: crystal
Detector: n/a
Detected: unknown, possibly earth or ocean surface, 20 km
Weight: 200 kg
Number Built: unknown
Antennae: parabola, send and receive common use

FH-1
Became Operational: February 1945
War Status: used in war
Installed: large flying boat
Purpose: low altitude radio altimeter
Wavelength: 88 cm
Peak Output: 0.0001 kw
Transmitter: parallel two wire
Receiver: UN-955
Detector: n/a
Detected: earth or ocean surface .015 km
Weight: 30 kg
Number Built: 100
Antennae: double T

E-27
Became Operational: April 1944
War Status: used in war
Installed: torpedo attack boat
Purpose: ESM warning indicator
Wavelength: 75-400 cm
Peak Output: n/a
Transmitter: n/a
Receiver: UN-955
Detector: n/a
Detected: enemy radar/radio use 300 km
Weight: 40 kg
Number Built: 2500
Antennae: unknown

unknown type
Became Operational: unknown, probably never
War Status: unknown, probably not used
Installed: ground, surface ship
Purpose: ESM warning indicator
Wavelength: 3-75 cm
Peak Output: n/a
Transmitter: n/a
Receiver: unknown
Detector: n/a
Detected: enemy radar/radio use unknown range
Weight: unknown
Number Built: 200
Antennae: unknown

FT-B
Became Operational: May 1944
War Status: under preparation for practical use
Installed: bomber and reconnaissance aircraft
Purpose: airborne ESM warning indicator
Wavelength: 45-370 cm
Peark Output: n/a
Transmitter: n/a
Receiver: UN-955 x 2
Detector: n/a
Detected: enemy radar/radio use 300 km
Weight: 20 kg
Number Built: 300
Antennae: unknown

FT-C
Became Operational: May 1944
War Status: under preparation for practical use
Installed: bomber and reconnaissance aircraft
Purpose: airborne ESM warning indicator
Wavelength: 45-370 cm
Peark Output: n/a
Transmitter: n/a
Receiver: UN-955 x 2
Detector: n/a
Detected: enemy radar/radio use 300 km
Weight: 20 kg
Number Built: 100
Antennae: unknown

Totals:
30 different types of sets
7256+ sets of all types built
While clearly the Japanese radar effort was late in coming and far less effective than that of the Allies, it was a far cry from nothing.

Army Radar Development and Training Groups
Tama Army Technology Research Institute formed 11 June 43 for radar research.
Army Radio Wave Training Unit formed 12 Feb 44 for training radar operators.
Army Radio Wave Weapons Training Department revised 28 Apr 45.
1st Radio Wave Guidance Unit formed 12 Jun 45.

Sources:
The Imperial Japanese Navy, AJ Watts and BG Gordon Senshi Sosho: Rikugun Gunsenbi (Army War Preparation)
A technical reference on WW II radar whose name I can't find at the moment, data provided by one of my research team and I'll have to have him check the book name (Martin Favorite, August, 1996).

Jake with Surface search Radar:

< Message edited by Brady -- 2/18/2004 5:47:38 AM >

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)

Post #: 7

RE: The Lost Radar thread... - 2/18/2004 7:55:56 AM

Philwd

Posts: 285
Joined: 3/19/2002
From: Arizona
Status: offline

Hi Oleg,
I really think a large part is TF composition. Large IJN TF will almost always be spotted first. But careful picking to maximize capabilities(meaning ships and commanders) still can give the IJN the edge. I had more than one instance in my current game of surprising a USN radar equiped TF in late '42 and into Jan'43. And thus getting the loved Long Lance attack message.

And it wasn't always Tanaka in command.

Quark

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)

Post #: 8

RE: The Lost Radar thread... - 2/18/2004 6:17:51 PM

Dunedain

Posts: 224
Joined: 4/4/2000
Status: offline

Quark: Yes, but Oleg is talking about U.S. TF's that don't even have any radar equipped ships that are still
getting radar detection possibilities when they shouldn't. I certainly hope the WitP team will double check to make
sure that U.S. TF's aren't getting any radar capability when none of the ships in the U.S. TF have radar.

(in reply to Philwd)

Post #: 9

RE: The Lost Radar thread... - 6/30/2004 7:27:21 AM

masterguns

Posts: 4
Joined: 6/27/2004
Status: offline

The ability of radar to curve around the earth to get below-horizon detections depends on the wavelength and the atmospheric conditions. The radar horizon at 150 miles is about 30,000 feet. Not many radars of the era had anywhere near enough power to get out that far. Long-wavelength ( > 30 cm) is required. Some radars with wavelengths > feet 3m were getting out to several hundred miles at 30000 ft or lower in the 60's.
A strong moisture gradient (high humidity at sea surface) was prevalent in the Solomons, aiding "ducting" (the beam follows the earth around the curve), especiallly with the > 1 m wavelengths in use. Much easier in the early days to generate long waves than short.
Late-war short range gunnery radars were down in the 3 cm band. Much better precision, definition, but no ducting.
With horizontal polarization, you can get ducting with these wavelengths. I have tracked a helicopter 500 ft above the ground from 60 miles in a flat very hot desert.

(in reply to Brady)

Post #: 10

RE: The Lost Radar thread... - 6/30/2004 7:43:51 AM

masterguns

Posts: 4
Joined: 6/27/2004
Status: offline

Brady 2/18/2004 5:47:38 AM

quote:

Transmitter: parallel two wire

Japanese Radar types, From: http://www.combinedfleet.com/radar.htm

I don't understand the above transmitter description.

Without some form of tuned tank (the coil in your dad's car ignition) and a switch to flash it (the points in your dad's car ignition) you can't have a useful transmitter.
Marconi used spark gaps (blew energy all over the spectrum - not much use for radar)
Later in the war the magnetron and klystron were used by us and the brits as both the "switch" and a tuned oscillator.

The parallel wires, if long enough, would filter out the waves longer than a critical wavelength determined by the wire spacing, and a lot of the energy would be dissipated in the short waves - not good for distance.

The Japanese were very good in radar, just a bit after us in combat deployment (Yagi was Japanese). They must have had something more sophisticated than Marconi's spark gap feeding a long (high-pass filter) transmission line to the antenna.

(in reply to Brady)

Post #: 11

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