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- 12/29/2001 3:26:00 PM   
tracer


Posts: 1865
Joined: 11/22/2000
From: New Smyrna Beach, FL USA
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by BORO:
Are you refering to the HBO Movie "A Time for Trumpets"?
Close....'When Trumpets Fade' Here's some info on it I started a thread about it back in the spring, but I don't know if the 'search' function is working here. [ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: tracer ]



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Post #: 31
- 12/29/2001 9:22:00 PM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		skyraider: Ah, didn't know that you were operating off of a book, and thought you were instead trying to say that the age of the men represented wasn't true-to-form with the German experience about that time.

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Post #: 32
- 12/29/2001 9:45:00 PM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		Penetrator:
quote:

Would you imagine this uttered at a general staff?
Depends. If you recall Mason's dialogue, he sure was pretty unorthodox, but then again he didn't strike me as unorthodox as say a Rommel (The point is that since Rommel did recon on his own often enough, that I could see an unorthodox general relating to a man heading a recon squad to some degree [and Steiner also gave the impression that he was a man who could've easily been of a higher rank, but was not, probably because of rebelliousness against his superiors]. IOW it didn't strike me as too odd, particularly since he was so tired of the war, and thereby even if he were very orthodox before, he may had started slipping in more than just speaking against the common rah-rah attitude that the Major [or was he a captain?] displayed for instance). In any case, I don't remember much of the dialogue between Mason and Coburn. One unfortunate thing about my viewing of the movie, however, is that my recording stopped about the time Steiner had got out of the hospital. Then, some monthes later I saw the tail end of the movie, picking up about the time they ran into the Russian women as prisoners. As you can see, I may had missed the best part of the movie, the part with the T34s. ARGH! Actually, for the parts I saw, I can't remember Mason and Coburn ever talking together (maybe once). It always seemed Steiner was out in the field, and whenever I saw Mason talking he was talking at HQ about the legend of Steiner and getting information from other people that Steiner had given them. In any case not too important, but that's the impression I had.

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Post #: 33
- 12/29/2001 10:21:00 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Maybe the films are merely suffering from a severe case of painfully obvious choices and people are just avoiding mentioning them. But just to be safe, any thread talking about war movies that doesnt say something nice about the Longest Day and A Bridge Too Far has missed out mentioning the two biggest, greatest, saturated in pure quality acting talent films ever made. Yes I like those two. They might not have material accuracy that would make even the most diehard critic glow, but I have yet to see a better film (maybe lots of equally good ones, but not better). With regards to Band of Brothers. I have a friend that is going to get me a copy of it on cd (man there just has to be a god). I intend to avoid Pearl Harbour the same way I would avoid a cheap Thai hooker. If given a tape of it for free, I would use it as a blank cassette and get better use out of it that way. We have all seen war movies where every dang tank was surplus US armour, but has anyone ever seen a film using surplus British armour?.
Once long ago I watched one. Was actually amusingly different. Cant recall the title though. Was a desert location piece. All the armour was British in the same manner all the armour was US in so many films. If anyone can recall the name of this title, I will gladly offer you congradulations.

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Post #: 34
- 12/30/2001 9:48:00 AM   
wulfir


Posts: 3091
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1:

But just to be safe, any thread talking about war movies that doesnt say something nice about the Longest Day and A Bridge Too Far has missed out mentioning the two biggest, greatest, saturated in pure quality acting talent films ever made.
Hear you loud and clear. Personally I have always liked Gene Hackman as the Polish Parachute Brigade commander in A Bridge too Far… “Tell your General we are coming…we are coming tonight.”

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Post #: 35
- 12/31/2001 3:42:00 AM   
BvB


Posts: 187
Joined: 10/7/2001
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Yes, the movie COI will always be one of my favorites. First time I saw it was in a german theater. It was the most expensive war movie they'd made up until then. They even handed out a program of about 10 pages when you entered. Gave info on the making, and some other background info and stats on how much ammo, film blood, etc were used. It was supposed to take place in the area across from Crimea in '43. Mason was the Regt Cdr and amongst his decorations is one that shows him as a WWI vet, so that would make his age plausable. It was filmed in Yugoslavia, while the sequel was filmed partly in Italy and agree - it sucked. They only had two actors from the original - Anselm who gets killed in the opening scene and Kruger who gets killed in the end. The author of the original - Willi Heinrich, was a german east front infantry officer. The other book by him I read was called Crack of Doom and takes place in Czechoslovakia vs the Russians at the end of the war.
As for Sven Hassel: I read his books in high school and recall them as entertaining enough even if not always accurate or believable. One of his books was made into a movie, I think it was called the "Misfit Brigade". I think Oliver Reed was in it, but don't recall much else.
Other favorites of mine: Wild Geese with Richard Burton; Field of Honor (Korea); and I guess we could go on and on - so many!

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Post #: 36
- 12/31/2001 4:40:00 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		Great subject. I always had mixed feelings about Cross of Iron as great movie-making, BUT I have to give kudos to Sam Peckinpah for his direction. To convey the horror of the Eastern Front, as well as draw sympathetic reactions to the Germans from your average Western audience is not an easy thing. I think this movie deserves a nod as a groundbreaker. Without it, films like "Das Boot" could never have been made.

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Post #: 37
- 12/31/2001 4:57:00 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		There's another film I'm very fond of, and that's "Europa Europa". What do you think about that one?

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Post #: 38
- 12/31/2001 5:03:00 AM   
ZinZan

 

Posts: 113
Joined: 12/9/2000
From: Leicester, England
Status: offline 		Re: Cross of Iron One of the first "modern"(i.e post 60's) WW2 movies I ever saw and still one of the best, I have always found it interesting that it was primarily a German film and was the first film I remember on general release about the Eastern front. On the subject of German films 'Das Boot@ has to be the best naval film. RE: Band Of Brothers I have to agree here, it was an amazing series, very gritty and realistic (so far as I could tell). In fact I got the book for Xmas (waited to buy it just in case )and am looking forward to reading it.

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Post #: 39
- 12/31/2001 6:55:00 AM   
Grenadier


Posts: 981
Joined: 5/10/2000
From: Newport Beach, CA USA
Status: offline 		Hi All,
Crooss of Iron is a great film, one of the best anti-war statements made. Mason was a major in the film, Steiners batallion commander. he played a general in Blue Max and played Rommel in 2 films, Desert Fox and Raid on Rommel opposite Richard Burton. The film takes place in the Kuban front in 1943. The book leaves it unclear if Steiner dies in the end but leads you to believe he does. Some of the editing is jagged, with some jarring camera cuts from Mason in his hq to Germans being cut down, making it appear as if it is happening right outside. The DVD of the film is a dissappointment, no extras and in pan & scan as opposed to letterbox.The German uniforms look like gebirgsjager and Willi Heinrich was in the 4th Gebirgsjager Division, but the Edelweiss is missing on the uniforms, but the Crimea Shield is present on the sleeves of Coburn & Mason. There is another book by Heinrich besides Crack of Doom, Mark of Shame

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Post #: 40
- 12/31/2001 9:16:00 AM   
skyraider

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 12/28/2001
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Charles_22:
skyraider: Ah, didn't know that you were operating off of a book, and thought you were instead trying to say that the age of the men represented wasn't true-to-form with the German experience about that time.
I saw the movie before I read the book. Though I liked the movie, and still do, the characters in the book seemed to be physically, at least, younger. However, being on the Eastern Front for two years can certainly age a person.

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Post #: 41
- 12/31/2001 9:29:00 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		Damn, I'm disappointed that "Europa Europa" hasn't garnered any mentions. This is based on the story of Solomon Perel, a German jew who fought for both the Soviets and the Germans during the War In The East. This is a wonderful story of a person struggling with his identity in order to survive. You guys need to check this one out.

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Post #: 42
- 1/1/2002 4:08:00 AM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by KG Erwin:
Damn, I'm disappointed that "Europa Europa" hasn't garnered any mentions. This is based on the story of Solomon Perel, a German jew who fought for both the Soviets and the Germans during the War In The East. This is a wonderful story of a person struggling with his identity in order to survive. You guys need to check this one out.
never heard of it....is it a german film??

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Post #: 43
- 1/1/2002 5:05:00 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		Frank W., "Europa Europa" is a German/French production from 1991. It stars Marco Hofschneider as Solly. It was directed by Agnieszka Holland, and won a Golden Globe for Best Foreign Film. It is a remarkable story, all the more so since it is a true one. For those who hate subtitles, yes, it does have them, since the dialogue is in German and Russian.

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Post #: 44
- 1/2/2002 5:48:00 AM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		For those of you who have COI recorded in any form, look through the opening credits and look for one picture very carefully. There you will see a picture of Hitler that you've never seen before. In fact, it's so nice that he looks just like a good neighbor that just dropped by, in fact it's so different from any picture you've seen of him, you have to ask yourself why you've never seen one like it before. It sort of stunned me anyway.

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Post #: 45
- 1/2/2002 11:38:00 AM   
King__Thunder

 

Posts: 22
Joined: 10/10/2000
From: Finland in the capital of Kimi Räikkönen.
Status: offline 		Wild Bill if you are intrested of the movie "Unknown solider" with english/Swedish text, then you can by it as DVD.
For exampel from this link, just press on "DVD" and then press on "T" and press on the "Tuntematon Sotilas" and there you have it.http://www.viihdekauppa.com/
If anybody can find it on some other Link please write it in this forum. [ January 01, 2002: Message edited by: King__Thunder ]



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Post #: 46
- 1/2/2002 1:05:00 PM   
rlc27

 

Posts: 306
Joined: 7/21/2001
From: Connecticut, USA
Status: offline 		There's a couple of documentary films I've got, WWII 'In Color,' that has some footage of Hitler as a nice-uncle-playing-with-the-kids-at-the-Eagle's Nest-while-Eva-Braun looks on kind of feel to it. It is rather disconcerting, to say the least. But I guess that's how he got his way so often, and had such an endearing effect on people--one does not come to power by ranting constantly and frothing at the mouth.

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Post #: 47
- 1/3/2002 12:11:00 AM   
Grumble

 

Posts: 471
Joined: 5/23/2000
From: Omaha, NE, USA
Status: offline
quote:

I think they also have a film about the Winter War which I am desperate to see.
"Winter War" (Talvisota) is available through Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000JPH0/qid%3D1009991058/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F0%5F1/102-6037695-2362563 Worth picking up.

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Post #: 48
- 1/3/2002 2:48:00 AM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Charles_22:
For those of you who have COI recorded in any form, look through the opening credits and look for one picture very carefully. There you will see a picture of Hitler that you've never seen before. In fact, it's so nice that he looks just like a good neighbor that just dropped by, in fact it's so different from any picture you've seen of him, you have to ask yourself why you've never seen one like it before. It sort of stunned me anyway.
i´ve seen a video about hitler (hitler - der privatmann - the private man)....there were much scenes from him playing with his dog or have a talk with some women. he looked like a very nice man.....disturbing!!!

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Post #: 49
- 1/3/2002 2:58:00 AM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
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Status: offline 		kendokabob: Yes, I've seen the Eagle's Nest stuff and I've seen some similar stuff regarding his little dance after France fell, and what you say about charm is so true. Although at first glance the picture I spoke of, specifically, looks as though he's sitting on a couch with a big smile close to the photographer. Though that much is true, I again pulled out my recording and noticed a few things. Firstly, he's in uniform. In my memory I would've told you he was not (although the cap was off). What further made Hitler's joy look all the more friendly is that you see so much of him you don't notice the white gloves at the far right, which I take to be Goering. Funny too, but I also didn't notice that it appeared he was in the railway car that France signed the surrender in, a place I heard that Hitler was in a very serious mood). Although the picture is likely another military picture (at least Hitler is dressed that way) the way it's shot comes across as non-military, particularly since any time we see Hitler in film they show him at a rally or with a bunch of generals (even the Eagle's Nest set of photos was that way [SS guards and generals etc.]).

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Post #: 50
- 1/3/2002 6:04:00 AM   
Panzer Capta


Posts: 268
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From: Bedford, NH, USA
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Grumble:
"Winter War" (Talvisota) is available through Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000JPH0/qid%3D1009991058 /ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F0%5F1/102-6037695-2362563 Worth picking up.
Don't miss this movie...it is incredible!!!!

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Post #: 51
- 1/3/2002 8:23:00 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		History often glosses over details that just dont fit in. Often personalities are only presented the way we want to remember them as well. I cant get over the fact that during the war Hitler was to some a sex symbol. Yeah thats exactly what I said. At one time he was a little boy too. But most feel more comfortable with remebering him as the fanatic that caused millions to die. You just never know what the future holds some times.

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Post #: 52
- 1/4/2002 12:50:00 PM   
rlc27

 

Posts: 306
Joined: 7/21/2001
From: Connecticut, USA
Status: offline 		Charles_22: It's funny how setting, costume, and perceived demeanor can so influence people's perceptions of others. Have you ever heard of the psych. experiment where you take a picture of an average guy sitting in a chair, and you give this to somebody and ask them what they think of this person and to describe him. One group gets the picture with the word "warm" written below the guy, and another group gets a picture with the word "cold," written below him. People's perceptions of the guy's personality tend to reflect the word: so the "warm" guy gets all sort of positive things (compassion, charisma, generosity) attributed to him and vice versa. And have you ever noticed how average moviegoers tend to hate the *actors* who play the evil guy in movies, but then become all *relieved* when those same actors are interviewed on TV and turn out to be all nice? Given the current state of this country's political climate, I'll bet you could interview Hitler (disguise him by calling him Rudolph Shicklegruber or something & shave his moustache) and people would really like his views on some things--! (And after all, didn't he come up with the idea for the autobahn and the volksvagen? Those ideas must have gone down real easy in 1920's-30's Germany--and led folks to think that, well, if he's this correct about some things--he must be right about everything!)

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Post #: 53
- 1/4/2002 10:10:00 PM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		kendokabob: I have a related story which perhaps a lot of us have heard about before. In one of the books I read about Hitler, it was said that the generals for quite a while thought he was a genius, How? Because he knew things they did not. He knew things like how many rounds a certain tank carried, things so trivial for a general to know, hence they turn their attention elsewhere, that they could be fooled into thinking he knew more than they. I'm not sure if Hitler did this deliberately to fool them or if he just had an aptitude for quirky details at times. OTOH, if it were I, I surely would not comment on someone's qualities based on a picture, such as the test you suggested, but what I was trying to say is that at some point or another our country went to such lengths to make Hitler look like a madman, you would never guess that there was anything on Hitler to suggest he could 'appear' nice. It seems a bit disingenuous to me, to preach that Hitler was the devil, put out all kinds of material to show him ranting at party meetings and what not, but then not to acknowledge that he had a side that made him believeable or trustworthy. I suppose this was done to cover up something else, and that was, like the generals of Hitler (in general [no pun intended] only, as surely there were exceptions) who were fooled by Hitler's eye for minutia, there were mesmorized by Hitler's economic success as thinking that only good people could lift the German economy. Of course a number of people were fooled by his not coming from aristocracy too and the fact that the WWI Germany was ran by people who were. As I see it, people all too often make quick and easy assumptions about somebody (the tests you mention for example) and then it takes pounding into their heads to get them to change their minds (popular opinion is the gauge for whether someone is good or bad, while the person will be what they are irregardless of that opinion). Obviously a good many of the people in Germany suffered from that affliction as well. The ol' surely Hitler has done some bad things, but surely not anything THAT bad comes to mind. Considering how the Germans most likely were always flowered with Hitler's better qualities, or in any case trying to make him look good, and the fact that we captured so many of their films, you'd think by now you would've seen more on this pleasant image of Hitler that was going on, but then that would be for us to admit we were largely wrong about him in the first place and the German people weren't just totally evil people who could've destroyed Hitler with their pinky had they so desired. The logic seems to be that their were no innocents among the Germans because Hitler continued to thrive within their own borders, where he should've been easier to detect. OTOH, it was being within the borders itself which was paradoxically a problem, because it was there where the they would be subject to Nazi retaliation, as the good Germans in prison, or executed, found out. There was something to be said for doing the cause of good, and not being in the prisons, but people tend to think cut-and-dry so often, such as those silly tests you mention, that they won't understand a good German didn't have to have been one of those locked up or dead, and still have been good. If all the good Germans were locked up or dead, then how could the culture be turned around? I haven't seen a lot of uprising against evil in a society perpetrated by escapees out of prisons or the dead, which to believe that since the common German was evil because he didn't overthrow Hitler, would amount to (of course it was tried to, by Von Staufenburg etc., and they got the same treatment dissenters got too. Unlike in recent America, they didn't just say "we respect your opinion", when they didn't, and that was the end of it [though of course Von Staufenburg's type of dissent wouldn't be tolerated by any regime]). As far as I can tell, Nazism was so repulsive after the fact, that people can't deal with the problem that evil always comes with ready-made disguises. If we were to see the disguises that various people believed about Hitler, then we'd have to admit that we could be fooled too (instead pride tells us that only the Germans could be fooled, but then, how did so many Germans get fooled? By thinking they were better etc., the same crime those who judge them by that yardstick are committing). If we could admit that we could be fooled, maybe we'd have to deal with an awful lot of things that we pushed aside and didn't analyze and just took at face value as good or bad based on some pretty flimsy reasoning (again the test you mentioned comes to mind). phew!

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Post #: 54
- 1/5/2002 7:14:00 AM   
rlc27

 

Posts: 306
Joined: 7/21/2001
From: Connecticut, USA
Status: offline 		Charles_22, Well, you've inspired me to go rent Cross of Iron again to look for that picture. And, of course, for the nurse. As for your commentary. Very interesting. I once had a great English teacher in High School, Mr. White (you may have seen one of his books: one is called Mr. Grey-we thought it was funny too-and the other is Sword of the North). This was Catholic school, and he was telling us about the nature of evil. "Contrary to popular opinion," he said (picture someone who looks like Henry Thoreau, beard and all, "the devil does not wear red pajamas and horns. Rather, he shows up looking more like Raquel Welch." While Hitler definitely didn't look like Raquel Welch, you get the point. *Something* about Hitler and Nazism, as you say, must have been darned appealing to the Germans. There was also a German woman of my acquantaince who in her graduate program was studying anti-Axis propaganda by the Allies during WWII. It was interesting to see the kinds of ways that Allied artists portrayed the average German soldier. Generalizations bordering on racism (isn't that ironic) permeated these things--posters to be hung up in the workplace that showed German soldiers that looked somehow like many Americans' stereotypical imagery of Jews--big nose, all conspiratorial. Also interesting that Ambrose notes in Citizen Soldiers that the average German citizen could not admit that Hitler knew anything about the concentration camps and the mass slaughters--it must have been Goering's fault, or Goebbel's, or Himmler, or somebody, but "not their dear Fuhrer's." "The Fuhrer knew nothing of this!," they'd say.



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Post #: 55
- 1/5/2002 8:32:00 AM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		kendokabob: Of course I suppose part of the logic of dismissing Hitler in their minds had to do with his being in the public eye so much, and that he started something which seemed so revolutionary. They were probably also affected by the fact that though they didn't elect him, a good number of them voted for him. Nobody ever voted for any of the people you mentioned with the 'possible' exception of Goebbels. As to Mr. White, his comments are even more apt than they did in the day they were spoken, about what the devil looks like. Obviously to mention Raquel Welch indicates it being spoken no later than 1985, and more likely in the 60s-70s. Since the rapid decline of morality since that time, it has emerged that there are probably more people led to the devil by the Raquels of the world than gullibles following Hitlers.

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Post #: 56
- 1/5/2002 9:59:00 AM   
sebagonzalez

 

Posts: 156
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Uruguay
Status: offline 		The best war movie i ever saw was by far the "Stalingrad" movie of 1992. It was a German - Sweede production . I never saw a movie that represented so good the atmosphere of the bitter fight in the streets of Stalingrad. Of course, cause is from the German side, it does not have a "Happy ending". It ends with the main characters of the movie frozen in the gelid ice. I must admit i cried a lot with this movie, it was a really shocking one. Here is a link to some reviews of it: http://www.1worldfilms.com/stalingrad.htm A must have Movie.

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Post #: 57
- 1/6/2002 3:13:00 AM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		just for the records i want to add that A THIN RED LINE is one of the best US war movies
ever made. see it,if not already done!!!

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Post #: 58
- 1/6/2002 12:01:00 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
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Status: offline 		You must have seen a different "Thin Red Line" than me then I guess. The film sucked. Spotty sporadic and poorly executed. Not up to the calibre of the book by any stretch of the imaginaton. To call it superior is excessive. It was at best a film you watch at home. Certainly not worthy of theatre expenses. Almost made me think Vonnegut (spelling approx. he did Slaughter House) was in some way connected. Film wandered and had pointless bursts of battle.

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Post #: 59
- 1/7/2002 1:24:00 AM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1:
You must have seen a different "Thin Red Line" than me then I guess. The film sucked. Spotty sporadic and poorly executed. Not up to the calibre of the book by any stretch of the imaginaton. To call it superior is excessive. It was at best a film you watch at home. Certainly not worthy of theatre expenses. Almost made me think Vonnegut (spelling approx. he did Slaughter House) was in some way connected. Film wandered and had pointless bursts of battle.
mhhh...i meant the movie which plays on cuadalcanal feat. sean penn and nick nolte. in german it´s called "der schmale grat"
hope we mean the same movie haven´t read the book,sorry i liked that film but that depends on
personal tastes,i think bye frank

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(in reply to alassi)
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