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Squad Level Combat? - 6/28/2004 6:24:56 AM

Grumbling Grogn

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When will we see a WW2 or Modern Squad level 'wargame?

No, I don't mean a first person shooter. Those are great and they are not what I am looking for. I want something in the vein of "Sniper" or "Firepower" if anyone is old enough to remember those old boardgames.

It always bugged the crap out of me that nobody ever picked up the engine from JA2 and made it modern/realistic.

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RE: Squad Level Combat? - 6/28/2004 6:46:27 AM

Fred98

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Sniper had a follow up game called Patrol!. I played that and enjoyed it.

For those who do not know, you have a squad and control each man individually. I too look forward to such a game for PC.

I notice there is a Matrix science fiction game called �Titans of Steel�. It could be modded to make a WW2 game.

But Titans of Steel is hex based and turn based. I imagine a WW2 game would need to be �continous time pausable� just like Highway to the Reich.
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RE: Squad Level Combat? - 6/28/2004 2:34:23 PM

wodin

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closest thing out at present is Silent Storm. However unfortunaly the went full sci fi

Why they dd that Ive no idea.

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RE: Squad Level Combat? - 6/28/2004 8:52:48 PM

Hexed Gamer

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I don't recall Patrol, Joe.

I thought it was Sniper - Hetzer Sniper - Special Forces Sniper in that order.

I have those ones at least.

Firepower is also good too.

On "squad level wargame" though, I guess that depends on your expectations.

Close Combat is pretty well a "squad Level wargame".

Steel Panthers is too when the tanks are not to numerous. Same could be said for the Campaign series or Combat Mission.
Squad Assault is more or less a "squad level wargame".

But the moment the game has dozen of squads and dozens of vehicles, I think the term "squad level" should be nudged up to platoon level or company level at least.

I usually think just one squad when I think "squad level".

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RE: Squad Level Combat? - 6/29/2004 1:34:45 AM

Hertston

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

closest thing out at present is Silent Storm. However unfortunaly the went full sci fi

Why they dd that Ive no idea.

It was a shame, although it's still great fun. Maybe they were aiming for the X-Com market ?

Grumbling, you might look around e-bay and such for "Soldiers at War", although it's pretty long in the tooth, now. Much under-rated IMHO, I really enjoyed it.... a JA style (although the inspiration was probably X-Com/Laser Squad) game with a "straight" WW2 setting.

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RE: Squad Level Combat? - 6/29/2004 1:59:31 AM

Fred98

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Yes, in Patroll! you had 8 men or so. And you control each man individually.

I really enjoyed Close Combat - where you control teams instead of individual men.
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RE: Squad Level Combat? - 6/29/2004 2:01:09 AM

wodin

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I too enjoyed SAW.

You can still get extra scenarios over at wargamer.

Yes it was very underated.

There was also that game by Microsoft Squad leader I think.

I never played it though did nearly buy at the time of release. It just looked like SAW. Infact thats why I didnt buy it I thought is was SAW under a new name.

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RE: Squad Level Combat? - 6/29/2004 2:52:04 PM

Hexed Gamer

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I have yet to ever hear anyone ever say anything remotely "nice" about the Squad Leader for computer program.

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RE: Squad Level Combat? - 6/29/2004 3:31:25 PM

Jim1954

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Wild Bill created a scenario for SP that is entitled "Anywhere but here" He took the members of the MCSE Team and put them into an amphibious assault into Normandy. The units are single men (modified snipers). That may whet your appetite.
Oh and please be careful with Pvt. Holland.
Thanks.

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RE: Squad Level Combat? - 6/29/2004 7:39:55 PM

benpark

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Both Sarge and I had independantly done work on a single man mod for EYSA. I'm sure one or the other will see the light of day sometime. It's a whole different game. Now you really know you've lost a veteran.

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RE: Squad Level Combat? - 6/30/2004 3:34:59 AM

Grumbling Grogn

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I don't care what label you slap on it but the player gives actions/controls each man/veh. individually.

Turn based like JA2 would be just great or the ability to pause and issue orders is required at the minimum. Or it could be continuous turnbased like Combat Mission. Either method would work but: no one person should have to think for a dozen in real time.

I have always been bored by the twich in the first person shooters and want some hard-core, small unit tactics on my PC. Vehicles would be sweet but frankly they are optional if the core infantry game is done right. But an expansion pact would sure sell: "Tank hunting T34's in the streets of Stalingrad...with tons more tactics, realism and no twich required." Hell, maybe I'm just getting old.

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RE: Squad Level Combat? - 6/30/2004 3:44:29 AM

Hexed Gamer

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Sounds like what you are hunting for is essentially a war RPG game.

Or something that is RPGish where you are really just controlling your "party" ie 3-4-5 or 6 personalities. And controlling them in a RPGish style environment.

There are some out there, but it exceeds my own experiences.

I watch games like EQ or more recently World of Warcraft in beta testing, and wonder, what would that look like if it was a GI, or a Tommie or maybe a Panzer Grenadier.

I have not really been sold on WWII Online as yet.

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RE: Squad Level Combat? - 6/30/2004 10:07:50 AM

ravinhood

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Isn't COMMANDOS a WWII squad level game? Seems to me it is. I had a demo of it and got so frustrated cause it was harder than heck to me. But, I suck at those kinds of games anyways, I need cardboard counters and x's and o'x with numbers on them. ;)

Oh and I just remember the early versions of X-COM are squad based missions as well. X-COM the Deep was my favorite.

< Message edited by ravinhood -- 6/30/2004 3:10:12 AM >

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RE: Squad Level Combat? - 6/30/2004 10:11:15 AM

ravinhood

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quote:

I have yet to ever hear anyone ever say anything remotely "nice" about the Squad Leader for computer program.

If you ever do, be sure and dial 911 and have them take them to the funny farm. ;)

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RE: Squad Level Combat? - 6/30/2004 8:37:02 PM

Grumbling Grogn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

Sounds like what you are hunting for is essentially a war RPG game.

Or something that is RPGish where you are really just controlling your "party" ie 3-4-5 or 6 personalities. And controlling them in a RPGish style environment.

No. A RPG-gun-game is absolutely not what I am looking for.

The closest I have seen on PC was 101st Airborne from Shrapnel games (good game btw). Nothing RPG about that game IMHO. Each soldier has a stat line, but that is about as RPG as it got. No gaining levels/stats/etc. And, frankly, an individual stat line for each soldier is not required.

I want a small unit tactical wargame where the gamer controls at most 2-3 squads/veh. Again, I have to refer to either the board games "Sniper" (and it's sequels) and Firepower as I think these two hit it closest with the hard-edged wargame aspect played up and the fluffy left out.

GG

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RE: Squad Level Combat? - 7/1/2004 12:39:31 AM

Hexed Gamer

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Looks like you have identified what might be called a "product gap".

When I first played Squad Leader (the board game) the beauty was it was just a simple game of squads and maybe some vehicles. The vehicles and guns really were not all that intrusive. It was small and managable.

Small and managable doesn't seem important to the computer game designers though.
Or rather, it appears no one wants to design a game where you ONLY have a few squads.

The singular nice part of Sniper and or Firepower, was it was just a handful of blokes you were controlling.

I currently like Close Combat more than Squad Assault mainly due to the difficulty level of just playing the game. It is simply easier to play Close Combat.

I think Close Combat would be even nicer if it was just individual guys and not individual squads. I have Hidden and Dangerous. But I found it was a bit to much like playing several guys simultaneously in a shooter style game. In a shooter, one is plenty to control.

More is not always better.

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RE: Squad Level Combat? - 7/1/2004 12:53:37 AM

W Thorne

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quote:

I want a small unit tactical wargame where the gamer controls at most 2-3 squads/veh

Eric Young's Squad Assault would do that nicely. The maps range in size from 360x360 meters to 540x540 meters. There are a few 1k maps available but they may be to big for a platoon size force.

Squad Assault is continuous time with a pause feature.

The squads available range from 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 12 man squads/teams. Vehicles are individual units.

You could do something like have two squads along with a MG team attacking a German heavy MG tram. On the US side you would be looking at anywhere from 13 men to 27 men depending what size squads you picked.

All the battles in the game can be redone in the Scenario Editor or you can make your own new scenario. You can also easily edit the force size of any squad/team in Excel.

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RE: Squad Level Combat? - 7/1/2004 2:26:42 AM

Grumbling Grogn

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Well, I have tried the demo for SA and while I thought I would like it while reading the previews, I don't.

See above for reasons (posted by Hexed Gamer) why I still play CC2/CC3 once in a while yet I have no plans on purchasing SA. That and the continous time with pause feature in SA just does not sit well with me. I never feel like I have any real level of control over the units I am to command. Now, morale, and loss of control of "men" or "units" during the course of a battle is one thing, but I just never had the feeling that I was in any form of control in a the demo of SA.

I have only Shrapnel's game 101st Airborne to refer to in the PC realm that seems to have hit the nail on the head. I would LOVE to see this 'type' of game done more generically for a modern or even multi-theater WW2 game(s).

GG

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RE: Squad Level Combat? - 7/1/2004 3:02:21 AM

Fred98

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The follow up to 101st Airborne is 82nd Airborne. Due out in June 2000, Shrapnel says they are still working it.
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RE: Squad Level Combat? - 7/1/2004 4:10:40 AM

Grumbling Grogn

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Yep, I know... I am one of the Beta testers. But seeing as it is the 30th, I would not count on them making that date. :-)

However, I am still looking for another, more generic, more versitile game.

< Message edited by Grumbling Grogn -- 6/30/2004 8:11:43 PM >

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RE: Squad Level Combat? - 7/1/2004 8:03:45 AM

Maliki

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Isn't COMMANDOS a WWII squad level game? Seems to me it is. I had a demo of it and got so frustrated cause it was harder than heck to me. But, I suck at those kinds of games anyways, I need cardboard counters and x's and o'x with numbers on them. ;)

Oh and I just remember the early versions of X-COM are squad based missions as well. X-COM the Deep was my favorite.

I could dig it if someone could do a historical wargame off of the engine from the X-Com series.Some of the physics would need to be worked out,i always thought it was stupid that you could not throw a grenade through a window or open doorway or that the top half of buildings were still standing after the bottom was blown to hell,but you could take what amounted to a small platoon into combat.With reaction fire and everything else in the game it would be interesting.

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RE: Squad Level Combat? - 7/1/2004 10:36:23 AM

Fred98

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grumbling Grogn

Yep, I know... I am one of the Beta testers.

When did you last test? The last post on the beta testers form was last January

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RE: Squad Level Combat? - 7/1/2004 4:52:14 PM

Grumbling Grogn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grumbling Grogn

Yep, I know... I am one of the Beta testers.

When did you last test? The last post on the beta testers form was last January

Don't want to blow you off, but I am bound by a NDA and rather than re-re-read it and parse my words I will just refer you to the publisher's site. Besides, I was just using 101st as an example.

As for X-Com I have waited decades for something using a simple graphics engine and turnbased movement like this to come along... WITH SOME REALISM and historical accuracy. I am still waiting (not counting 101st as I mentioned above <g> I really do love the game...i just want more like it!)

GG

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RE: Squad Level Combat? - 7/14/2004 2:54:45 PM

eg0master

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Firepower was/is one of my favorites too...

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RE: Squad Level Combat? - 7/14/2004 5:44:28 PM

OberJager

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SSI had a game out a while ago called Soldiers at War, it was ok...and along the same line as X-Com but WWII.

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RE: Squad Level Combat? - 7/14/2004 11:10:37 PM

ravinhood

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Yeah, we need an updated version of "Computer Ambush" with more maps or a random map generator. Using the engine of X-Com would be nice for a WWII squad level game, sending your men out on missions/assignments, some in small towns, others in forests/jungles, deserts, deserted rural areas, something simular to how Combat Mission builds it's QB maps.

X-Com gave life to those computerized numbers of your men and women. You could grow attached to some and then cringe when it fell in battle to those alien vermin.

Heh, I used to send those 1 level courage people to the front all the time, hahah, everyone became a point man or woman, I figure if I'm going to lose someone, might as well be the less courageous. lol

Outfitting them with weapons, grenades, ammo, all that was kewl before the mission, X-Com really was a great game/engine. Would really be great if someone would/could use it to make a WWII squad level game.

But, for gods sakes put a random map generator in the game, if it's one thing I loathe the most is mission based games with the same maps over and over and over again. Use some imagination and come up with about 100 different possible maps to generate or a random map generator that can really do a good job creating unlimited maps and terrain.

I really want a turn based game that is turn based, not this real time, but, you can stop the clock junk, just give me my turn to tell my men what to do, and have action points so I can save some for reaction fire, sighting, opportunity fire, retreat in the face of the enemy, lol, but, just keep it turn based. I loved those timed grenades in X-Com and the bomb paks.

A WWII X-COM/WWII multiplayer game would be so kewl too, and/or co-op. Have a bunch of people per side, one could really become involved in the action and tactics. Without having to be a twitch or jerk your joystick type of player. They have tournaments for games like Quake, and Unreal and Counter Strike, well if we had a good multiplayer turn based tactcial squad based game, we could have some $$ tournaments also. I could/would attempt to participate in them, but, I am no herky jerky type of player, but, I think people can have tactical better minds and be better than those that can herky jerky their mouse or joystick.

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RE: Squad Level Combat? - 7/15/2004 10:38:51 AM

NefariousKoel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I too enjoyed SAW.

You can still get extra scenarios over at wargamer.

Yes it was very underated.

There was also that game by Microsoft Squad leader I think.

I never played it though did nearly buy at the time of release. It just looked like SAW. Infact thats why I didnt buy it I thought is was SAW under a new name.

It was, in fact, Soldiers at War with a much better everything. Brits, drivable vehicles, graphics improvement, campaign improvement,mortars, etc. At least, after the patch that fixed the freakin' memory leak - it was SAW but better.

There.. I said something good about it.

< Message edited by NefariousKoel -- 7/15/2004 2:39:15 AM >

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RE: Squad Level Combat? - 7/15/2004 5:03:11 PM

OberJager

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What was it called? By Microsoft?

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RE: Squad Level Combat? - 7/17/2004 8:16:19 AM

NefariousKoel

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Microprose Squad Leader. I think Hasbro distributed it. Just like Soldiers at War/X-com combat. And, yes, you could set it to mix randomly generated scenarios in between the pre-built ones Ravin.

< Message edited by NefariousKoel -- 7/17/2004 12:17:23 AM >

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RE: Squad Level Combat? - 7/17/2004 1:52:28 PM

wodin

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Hmm, well I think SaW was rather underateded. Maybe people have so many bad things to say about Squad Leader because it was touted as being connected with the boardgame of the same name.

If it hadnt have been then it wouldnt have been slated as much maybe?

Who has played this game anyway? Is it worth getting?

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