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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Submarine Wolfpacks

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Submarine Wolfpacks - 7/9/2004 8:08:07 AM

Jack Shelak

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I notice that the starting submarine task forces have only one sub each by default. Does the mechanics of this game give an advantage to having multiple subs in one task force (ie a wolfpack)?

I may want to create wolfpacks and send them to strategic areas, but does it make sense or should I keep the subs in their own their task forces (in 'real' life, wolfpacks were deadly)...

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RE: Submarine Wolfpacks - 7/9/2004 8:15:16 AM

Xargun

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jack Shelak

I notice that the starting submarine task forces have only one sub each by default. Does the mechanics of this game give an advantage to having multiple subs in one task force (ie a wolfpack)?

I may want to create wolfpacks and send them to strategic areas, but does it make sense or should I keep the subs in their own their task forces (in 'real' life, wolfpacks were deadly)...

I'm not sure the US or Japan had Wolfpack tactics in 1941... But remember.. If you have multiple Subs in a hex then a single ASW TF can attack all of them in one turn quite easily.. and you will usually have one of the subs spotted, thus an ASW TF is not far away..

Xargun

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RE: Submarine Wolfpacks - 7/9/2004 8:29:59 AM

Jack Shelak

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[/quote]

I'm not sure the US or Japan had Wolfpack tactics in 1941... But remember.. If you have multiple Subs in a hex then a single ASW TF can attack all of them in one turn quite easily.. and you will usually have one of the subs spotted, thus an ASW TF is not far away..

Xargun
[/quote]

The US Navy did have wolfpacks, but not as large as the Germans ones.

See link: http://www.battlebelow.com/wolfpacks.htm

Most of the Japanese shipping was lost to US subs.

I don't care if a ASW TF attacks me, it only means I will sink more of their ships (wolfpacks are hunters)!

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RE: Submarine Wolfpacks - 7/9/2004 10:11:16 AM

Brady

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The typical outcome of an ASW TF atack is a dead sub, or this how it apears to being going so far.

Their is I beelave a penatily for any subs in a hex over two, and that is a penatily that is Bad news for the Subs. You will nead to check the rules for more detail on tis or perhaps someone esle knows the finer points.

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RE: Submarine Wolfpacks - 7/9/2004 11:48:30 AM

von Murrin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

The typical outcome of an ASW TF atack is a dead sub, or this how it apears to being going so far.

Their is I beelave a penatily for any subs in a hex over two, and that is a penatily that is Bad news for the Subs. You will nead to check the rules for more detail on tis or perhaps someone esle knows the finer points.

No penalty for same hex subs (does that sound dirty?) in WitP.

Personally, I haven't seen the instakill ASW everyone else is talking about. I've killed one IJN sub and they've whacked one of mine. Both were in shallow water. I may be getting lucky, but I don' mind.

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RE: Submarine Wolfpacks - 7/9/2004 3:26:33 PM

siRkid

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quote:

I notice that the starting submarine task forces have only one sub each by default. Does the mechanics of this game give an advantage to having multiple subs in one task force (ie a wolfpack)?

None. You can do it if you want.

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RE: Submarine Wolfpacks - 7/9/2004 3:51:12 PM

WhoCares

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Is the probability for the detection of additional subs in a hex by an ASW TF increased if the subs are organized in a single TF? I suppose yes, as I suppose that they are sticking close together as TF. How does it work with two separat single-sub-TFs with one following the other?
Would also be interesting to know, how one or the other constellation affects the offensive capabilities for detection, attack and destruction of enemy ships (or the distribution of minefields), e.g. would two separat TFs with one following the other attack the same enemy, maybe even together? Or would the dices be thrown again for the second TF, with (maybe) an increased detection level of the enemy?

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RE: Submarine Wolfpacks - 7/9/2004 3:54:58 PM

Jack Shelak

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Thanks all for the responses.

I will create one or two packs and see what happens. While I will avoid ASW TFs, I will not let them stop me from my objectives. Seems like avoiding shallow water and air power may be more important.

I will post some after action reports if I find anything meaningful...

Jack

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RE: Submarine Wolfpacks - 7/9/2004 5:30:55 PM

Charles2222

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The one thing that really strikes me as curious, is that it would seem that a wolfpack will see ALL the subs attacking, therefore when they do attack first having far greater impact. I would imagine that if a unescorted transport survived the 1st attack that there's a pretty good chance it gets away, particularly if night intervenes (not in RL). So with multiple subs, when they do find something, the chances of the target getting aways should be slim. Considering all of this, though you'd think their detection might be easier, I woulf put wolfpacks in where I found the highest density of escorted TF's to be, hoping that the advantage of multiple subs attacking would catch some of the escorts. For what loner TF's I'd have I'd plan to put those in quieter areas, for keeps tabs on ship movement if nothing else.

I also think it would be advantageous, whether teaming with a wolfpack or not, to use one or two subs 'behind' where the main sub force is trying to attack, and then unleash the floatplanes. I have a funny feeling the subs with floatplanes are very vulnerable to attack (only while they're launched of course) if you don't use some hefty screen in front of them as I described. This way they can relatively use their FP advantage and not pay the price.

Here's a question for you guys: Considering a sub attack in the daytime and that the day segment is 12 hours, can the sub attack a surviving target more than once in the same combat, or, if not, attack it later in the same pulse? It's just when these attacks occur, and I don't think I've actually seen a sub attack yet (not a UV player) I imagine them emptying their forward tubes and that's the end of attack for them, whereas it's pretty lousy if they can't attack again especially on an unescorted ship and the pulse is 12 hours.

< Message edited by Charles_22 -- 7/9/2004 3:31:35 PM >

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RE: Submarine Wolfpacks - 7/9/2004 5:52:58 PM

WhoCares

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I would wish it was possible to define a patrol path/area for various TFs, including subs.
You know, more than Base - DH - Base, maybe Base - D1 - D2 - D3 - D1 - ... - Base. Area could be a radius around DH. Area would maybe require the sub to be under computer control. It could also utilize more subs in a single TF, where the subs of the TF would be spread across the op. area and react together on sightings.

But I can imagine that this (esp. area) could be no easy task to implement

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RE: Submarine Wolfpacks - 7/9/2004 5:59:24 PM

PeteG662

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Charles.....my experience has been that you get one salvo from the forward OR aft tube at a target per turn per sub.

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RE: Submarine Wolfpacks - 7/9/2004 6:14:29 PM

Nikademus

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I would recommend multi sub TF's only for administrative purposes. (i.e. to get a large group of subs to a patrol area quickly, then once arrived, break them up for their indiv patrols)

One thing i found in my tests, was that often only one sub of a multi-sub TF would attack with torpedoes, leaving the other sub(s) doing nothing with full tubes.

If you want multiple subs in the same hex, its best to have them in indiv TF's

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RE: Submarine Wolfpacks - 7/9/2004 6:18:02 PM

Charles2222

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tallyman662

Charles.....my experience has been that you get one salvo from the forward OR aft tube at a target per turn per sub.

Thanks for the clarification, but I was afraid it was that lame. I guess the destroyers get to attack until the sub gets away huh, but the subs never attack the rest of the pulse? That should put that more emphasis of making a number of wolfpacks of at least 2 apiece.

OTOH, I suppose it's not that altogether lame that a hiding sub may not be able to attack 'escorted' ships for another 12 hours, but letting the unescorted get away just because it'll only fire one salvo for 12 hours is pretty bad.

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RE: Submarine Wolfpacks - 7/9/2004 6:46:22 PM

Jack Shelak

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Hmm, interesting...

Here's some more questions I will try to answer:

- will a wolfpack detect and engage an enemy task force more often than a lone sub?
- will a ASW TF attacking a wolfpack spread it's damage across the pack so that instead of 5 depth charges against one sub you may get 2 or 3 subs attacked instead of one sub sunk! Damaged subs can fight again another day while sunk subs can't....

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RE: Submarine Wolfpacks - 7/9/2004 7:02:49 PM

Nikademus

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- yes, it might.

- no, damage is not spread around. a sub attack/counterattack is always a per unit basis

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RE: Submarine Wolfpacks - 7/9/2004 7:11:30 PM

WhoCares

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

- yes, it might.

- no, damage is not spread around. a sub attack/counterattack is always a per unit basis

But does it increase the chance of detection for the other subs if they are in the same TF?

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RE: Submarine Wolfpacks - 7/9/2004 7:12:16 PM

Nikademus

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the more subs in the hex....the greater the chances for detection

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RE: Submarine Wolfpacks - 7/9/2004 7:17:14 PM

WhoCares

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

the more subs in the hex....the greater the chances for detection

Obviously, but the question is, is there a difference with respect to the organisation of those subs? Is there a difference if they share the same TF, following another sub or just more a less accidently happen to cruise through the same hex.

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RE: Submarine Wolfpacks - 7/9/2004 7:29:19 PM

Nikademus

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to my knowledge its soley based on the # of subs in the hex. The more subs...greater the chance for detection by the escorts.

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RE: Submarine Wolfpacks - 7/9/2004 8:26:01 PM

Damien Thorn

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If you put more than one sub in a task force will more than one actually attack? I don't think so. I'd like to see each sub in the same hex get a chance to attack. It shouldn't matter whether 10 subs are in 10 task forces or in one if they are in the same physical location.

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RE: Submarine Wolfpacks - 7/9/2004 9:22:35 PM

Nikademus

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If multiple subs are in the same hex, they can attack, but not at the same time. The cavet to this is if the subs are in the same TF. I have found that only one sub tends to make attacks.

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RE: Submarine Wolfpacks - 7/9/2004 10:02:34 PM

Jack Shelak

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Splitting the wolfpack into different task forces upon arrival at the DH is GREAT for attack, but what about defense?

If a ASW TF containg 10 DDs makes a ASW attack on a wolfpack containing 10 subs (all in one TF), will all 10 DDs attack the same sub?

TIA

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RE: Submarine Wolfpacks - 7/9/2004 10:18:53 PM

Nikademus

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The ASW units will only attack the sub that either attacked them (or a ship being escorted) *or* the sub that was "detected".

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RE: Submarine Wolfpacks - 7/9/2004 11:36:04 PM

Charles2222

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Damien Thorn

If you put more than one sub in a task force will more than one actually attack? I don't think so. I'd like to see each sub in the same hex get a chance to attack. It shouldn't matter whether 10 subs are in 10 task forces or in one if they are in the same physical location.

In a sense actually it should. Consider that the TF is one icon, whereas numerous sub TF's are represented as spread throughout the hex, suggesting they're spacing in the hex so that at least one of them catches a prey. If what was suggested earlier is true, that subs in the same TF won't all attack at the same time, and ASW ships in the same hex will, that should be looked at. I would think the ability to put things in a TF together would proclude that when they attack they all do so relatively together. Of course if the game wouldn't allow sub TF's that would screw that up.

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