JohnK
Posts: 285
Joined: 2/8/2001 Status: offline
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Ok, Finally found some excellent web sources (Official histories of the USMC, and the NZ WWII Armed forces, on the web) http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USMC/I/ http://www.nzetc.org/etexts/WH2Paci/index.html and have sorted this thing out.....but I'm not sure what the UV solution is. Will mention on the OOB page and eventually I hope to write a really detailed post including my recommendations for either a patch or "house rules." The problem with the Marines is being scattered all to hell, and units borrowing stuff from other units. In the case of the Kiwis, it's that the 8th Brigade was the nucleus for the 3rd NZ Division; but the 3rd Division was purely fictional in 1942...those troops simply didn't exist to be deployed in 1942, especially with the extremely high morale and experience they get when they arrive in WITP in January 1942. The major units of the 1st and 2nd Marine Divisions are the three regiments in each division, so we've got three to track. A big fly in the ointment is 1st Marine Division borrowed a Regiment (2nd Marine Regiment) from the 2nd Marine Division for the Guadalcanal invasion. Heres the sequence of when each Regiment left the US: Jan 1, 1942: 8th Marine Regiment, 2nd Marine Division ships out from the US to garrison Samoa April 2, 1942: 7th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division ships out from the US to garrison Samoa June 1942: 5th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division ships out from the US for NZ June 22, 1942: 1st Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division ships out from the US for NZ July 1942 - 2nd Marine Regiment, 2nd Marine Division ships out from the US for NZ October 1942 - 6th Marine Regiment, 2nd Marine Division (having been in Iceland till March 1942) ships out from the US for Guadalcanal A clear mess. Two Marine Divisions, and when to make them avaliable. WITP is actually pretty generous even with 1st Marine Division, having it appear in the US in the middle of May 1942. Players can use "house rules" and split each Division into thirds and do a pretty accurate simulation of the above... Just use 2nd Mar Div and send A out in Jan, B out in April.....but leave C in the US till October. With 1st Mar Div, you can send the whole thing out in June or July. In the case of the 3rd New Zealand Division....... The 8th Brigade was PART of the division; not an extra brigade. The 8th brigade was, of course, in Fiji prior to the war starting. So it's a problem for WITP to later have the division arrive. The Kiwis reinforced 8th Brigade with another Brigade in Jan. 1942....but even AFTER that reinforcement, the force in Fiji was still only about 7,600 men....NZ was short on manpower, and the priority for full strength and reinforcements remained the 2nd NZ Division in the Mediterranean, even AFTER the war started. And looking at the strength of the WITP 8th brigade, it's stronger than the 8th Brigade was in reality at the start of the war, but about as strong as the TWO brigades in Fiji in Jan. 42.....so, seems to be a reasonable "fudge" to have it at the stronger strength. However, the fully manned and massively experienced 3rd NZ Division that arrives in early Jan. 1942 ready for Sopac deployment in WITP is an utter fiction; no such force REMOTELY existed. There was nothing called 3rd Division till May 1942; and that referred to the two brigades on Fiji that already existed. And the NZ history speaks of constant manpower shortages, men being taken away for 2nd NZ Division in the Med, training problems, etc. The NZ force on Fiji was relieved in early June 1942 and went back to NZ. The 3rd Division, as a force with a strength actually resembling a real division, wasn't deployed outside of NZ till it went to New Caledonia from Nov. 1942 to Jan. 1943. Of couse, New Caledonia was very much a rear area at that time, and then then spent their time training...no way they were an 80 EXP unit when they left NZ.... They didn't actually enter combat till September 1943. So, 3rd NZ Division really shouldn't arrive till Nov. 1942 at the minimum, and one could make a plausible case it probably shouldn't appear in the game till July-August 1943. And the Morale and Experience of the unit seems wildly inflated; not saying it was a BAD unit, there were very experienced officers taken from the 2nd NZ Division, but an arrival morale and EXP in the 65-70 range may be more realistic. And of course it INCLUDES 8th NZ Brigade, so as a house rule players may consider withdrawing 8th Brigade when it appears. Overall point is, the uber-strike force of 2nd Marines and 3rd NZ Division that the Allies have in Jan. 42 didn't exist; when I started playing the game, and saw those troops and their avaliabilty, I felt NONE of the "scrambling for troops" feeling the real Allies had.
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