3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? (Full Version)

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JohnK -> 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? (7/11/2004 12:08:30 AM)

Not in the OOB thread as I'm not really confident of how things SHOULD be.

But after seeing the whole 2nd Mar Div in all its super-experience and morale glory sitting in San Diego on Dec. 7 ready to roll overseas, and the whole fully equipped 3rd New Zealand Division with 75 EXP and 80 morale arriving a month after the war starts ready for SOPAC deployment without spending PP points, and then doing some quick web searches, I find it really difficult to believe that this was reality.

For one thing, everything on the web so far indicates the 8th NZ Brigade in Fiji was the nucleus for the 3rd NZ Infantry division, but we are given each unit separately.

And while the 2nd Mar Div has been brought up before, it's worth mentioning that parts of it were sent to Iceland AFTER Dec. 7....and it seems clear that what was left in the US wasn't considered a ready-for-combat formation.

If both of these divisions really were avaliable that early, they both would have been used...heavily...in 1942 for something.

Seems like a big play unbalancer having this much offensive land force avaliable that early to the Americans.... (and I'm definitely no Japanese fanboy, I'm mostly a Japanse fanboy opponent.)

Allied land formations early in the war are awfully confusing; every country was expanding their armies rapidly, and new units would often be formed by splitting an existing unit and reinforcing both.....and units could be scattered around, in the case of 2nd Mar Division, entirely around the world.....but it seems OOB wise that the benefit of the doubt on unit avaliability may be skewed entirely towards the earliest possible date....



Pascal_slith -> RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? (7/11/2004 12:14:20 AM)

And at the same time you see in the Ground Reinforcements screen that the 1st Marine Div will only be available around mid-42 at the earliest. Kind of difficult to have them build up the needed "Target" experience for a good landing on the 'canal in August 42...



GBirkn -> RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? (7/11/2004 12:47:46 AM)

The 1st Marines show up with 90 experience -- I'm sure they'll do OK. Oh, you meant prep points, I bet. Even there, they should be fine, as long as you set their objective before you load them on the transports. They can get a lot of planning done on the way to Noumea.



Tophat -> RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? (7/11/2004 1:33:07 AM)

Are you suggesting the 1st and 2nd marine divisions avaliability was switched by mistake?



Tophat -> RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? (7/11/2004 2:08:07 AM)

Ok,
Did some looking on my own about the second marines,here is a quote from a page conected to their history:

quote:

During World War II more than 60,000 Marines saw action with the Second Division. When the division was formally activated on February 1, 1941, at San Diego, California, its keystone was the old Sixth Regiment which brought to the division the historic traditions of Chateau Thierry and Belleau Wood.
quote:



So being activated On Febuary 1st of 41`the division had 10 months to further train as a unit.Seems it should be correctly avaliable to me.



JohnK -> RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? (7/11/2004 2:40:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tophat

So being activated On Febuary 1st of 41`the division had 10 months to further train as a unit.Seems it should be correctly avaliable to me.


They weren't a unit. Parts of it were in Iceland from July 41 till March 42.....

And I think a portion was sent to SOPAC as a garrison in early 1942...not sure how much, but I strongly suspect a Brigade or less.

I think the problem is since you can't have the database manipulating ground units in a complex fashion, the whole Division was put in at the start, when only a portion should be...can a scenario be designed that has a Division split into thirds with some of the thirds arriving as reinforcements?

Problem is it's much worse from a realism standpoint having the whole thing at game start than it would be to not give the US the portions that were actually deployed early.

And any Kiwis at all playing WITP? I would have thought they would have signed in.



mjk428 -> RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? (7/11/2004 2:42:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnK

Not in the OOB thread as I'm not really confident of how things SHOULD be.

But after seeing the whole 2nd Mar Div in all its super-experience and morale glory sitting in San Diego on Dec. 7 ready to roll overseas, and the whole fully equipped 3rd New Zealand Division with 75 EXP and 80 morale arriving a month after the war starts ready for SOPAC deployment without spending PP points, and then doing some quick web searches, I find it really difficult to believe that this was reality.


Not that it's definitive but the original Pacwar had 3rd NZ arrive 1/42 & 2nd Marine arrive 7/42. It does raise the question what the reasoning was for moving up the date for the Marines.

As for not having to pay PPs for the 3rd NZ to move it, considering that there are aren't enough PPs to transfer all the necessary bases to SWPacific command in the appropriate time frame, thank goodness for small favors. Unless of course they will change over automatically but I've heard otherwise. I'm hoarding my points and waiting to see.



Tophat -> RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? (7/11/2004 2:54:58 AM)

This is getting rediculous..........look at the dates you are listing:

quote:

They weren't a unit. Parts of it were in Iceland from July 41 till March 42.....

Fine strip out the appropriate regiment........the other deployments you are speaking of take place after the start of the game on Dec 7th of 41`..........its up to us<we the players>to disperse these units!!!!!!! Sop don't get your historical shorts in a bunch over it.



JohnK -> RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? (7/11/2004 3:03:29 AM)

Ok, found a really good site:


http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USMC/I/index.html

Thus on 1 February 1941 the brigades stationed on the east coast and west coast were officially activated as the 1st Marine Division and 2d Marine Division respectively. To effect the necessary expansion, cadres were drawn from existing units around which to build and train new units of the same type. This proved a slow and laborious process, and months passed before either division could be built up to authorized strength.

So being ACTIVATED doesn't mean you've got a division full of men and equipment and you just train them.

Activation meant the 2nd Marine Division existed on PAPER. Had nothing to do with it being remotely near full strength.

The same source gives the strength of the 2nd MarDiv in the US as 7,540 men on November 30, 1941....NOWHERE NEAR FULL STRENGTH.

There were 489 2nd MarDiv men already deployed in the Pacific by then, though...I suspect what the designers did was, since they couldn't start the division split apart with the vast majority of it arriving well after game start, is simply plop the whole thing down avaliable for deployment on Dec. 7.

And an entire REGIMENT of the 2nd Mar Div was part of the Iceland force till March 42......the time of transport from Iceland (they LEFT in March) to the West Coast and readiness to deploy again MUST have been really long.

A regiment of the 2nd Mar Div did begin loading on Jan. 1 1942 to garrison Samoa........apparently the last regiment was in the US for a long time.

So you've got an incredibly complex series of detachments and recombinations before the whole Division turns up on Guadalcanal in early 1943......

A big problem if you can't bring the unit into the game in pieces.



JohnK -> RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? (7/11/2004 3:05:57 AM)

quote:

Sop don't get your historical shorts in a bunch over it.


Yeah, to a Japanese player I'm sure the difference between one regiment of the 2nd being avaliable on Dec. 7, and the other two only being avaliable 6+ months later, and all three of them avaliable for deployment on Dec. 7 is hardly noticeable.



mjk428 -> RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? (7/11/2004 3:06:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tophat

This is getting rediculous..........look at the dates you are listing:

quote:

They weren't a unit. Parts of it were in Iceland from July 41 till March 42.....

Fine strip out the appropriate regiment........the other deployments you are speaking of take place after the start of the game on Dec 7th of 41`..........its up to us<we the players>to disperse these units!!!!!!! Sop don't get your historical shorts in a bunch over it.


I'm not sure if you're talking to me, since you seem to have trouble quoting but I see nothing wrong with trying to get things reasonably accurate.



wobbly -> RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? (7/11/2004 3:12:41 AM)

Well I don't have WitP yet, and knowing international- NZ postal services it will be a while until I do. The NZ 3rd Division is usually available, in UV, in Mid 43. This feels about right to me.

The 3rd were indeed created around the nucleus of the 8th regiment, based in Fiji, at the outset of the Pacific War. I am surprised by the proficiency of this division, they were always considered the poorer cousins of the 1st and 2nd who were fighting in the desert and Italy. By the time of the start of the Pacific war New Zealand forces had weathered the awful defeats of Greece, Crete and the the ravages of Rommel. Most of the men of military age in New Zealand were required to make up numbers lost in these defeats. NZ in 1941/42 only had a population of about 2 million so the creation of the 3rd was with whatever they had left. NZ agreed with Churchill that the European war was more important and did not bring their best troops home like Australia did (granted Australia was a little closer to the action!)
So I am very surprised to hear that they are available at this time, they may have been a force in name but not in number. I have tried doing a bit of internet searching but haven't found anything too definative - so I cannot base this on documentation.



SunDevil_MatrixForum -> RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? (7/11/2004 3:12:48 AM)

The player though, still has to use PP's to transfer HQ, and also transport them across the Pacific, so even though they are available in Dec'41, at least they do not start on Wake Island. :) Everyone is making a good point here, I just do not know whether much can be done.



mjk428 -> RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? (7/11/2004 3:25:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SunDevil

The player though, still has to use PP's to transfer HQ, and also transport them across the Pacific, so even though they are available in Dec'41, at least they do not start on Wake Island. :)


The 2nd Marines start out attached to "South Pacific"; no PPs needed. They're also at 80% efficiency. If I was playing as Japan in PBEM game, I'd make it a house rule they couldn't be moved en masse for at least a few months.

It seems to me they should either get a later entry date or be at low efficiency (33%?) at the start.



Nikademus -> RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? (7/11/2004 3:33:14 AM)

Without digging out references (been too long a day) i do recall how Richard Frank ("Guadalcanal") documented the pains the US had to go through to create a full composite and ready 1st USMC Division for Watchtower. In the end they were only able to muster out her strength by "borrowing" units from other Marine regiments. I also recall that while stiffened by a solid core of "old breed" noncoms.....the rest of the filling out was with green wetbacks.....so the "90" exp rating is a admitedly a bit on the "generous" side. (same problem exists with some of the Oz divisions too that returned from the Middle east....they also had a serious working up period before they became Jungle experts)

The availability of the 2nd USMC Div right from the get go attached to SoPac and ready to invade er....."garrison" is a known OOB boo boo. Believe its on the list for correction.



SunDevil_MatrixForum -> RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? (7/11/2004 3:35:34 AM)

ok I stand corrected then. Learn something new everyday. :)



Nikademus -> RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? (7/11/2004 3:58:24 AM)

ok....couldn't resist....whats a little LONGER of a day. Here's the skinny.

1st USMC div by mid 42 represented more a title vs. a ready tactical unit. It had undergone a simotanious process or disintigration and reorganization three times within the last year. One whole regiment (7th Marines) had been ordered to prepare for Samoa in 3/42. In the process of this the rest of the division had been ruthlessly stripped of the most experienced officers to fill this regiment to the brim.

Meanwhile the 5th Marines had been picked over to help form the 1st Raider batallion and to help fill out the 7th Marines. The third regiment (1st Marines) had only been reconstituted from cadre status in 3/42 and was essentially in unready status.

The Division eventually was able to swell it's ranks to full strength by tapping young (and very green) enlistees of the post Pearl Harbor period. They were stiffened by a much smaller core of "Old Breed" career Marines tapped from different sources within the ranks of the USMC. The 7th Marines were "replaced" by tapping the 2nd Marines based out of SanDiego and were to join up while the rest of the 1st USMC 'Division' was enroute to Guadalcanal



Fallschirmjager -> RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? (7/11/2004 5:27:01 AM)

I would rather see the WHOLE 2nd USMC at San Diego at Dec 7th.
A good solution would be to only give it about 1/3 of its men and equipment and have the rest join it as regular replacements.
I dont like the idea of having bits and pieces scattered about the Pacific for us to put back together.
Lets stop adding headaches to the game.



Tophat -> RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? (7/11/2004 5:30:35 AM)

Ok,
I fully understand an entire regiment of the 2nd marine division is on Iceland so won't be avaliable till June. There were still 2 regiments avaliable for deployment.Sounds as though this is going to be corrected in a patch anyway so won't be too bad.Maybe they will lower the experience level the division as well.
mjk428.......Nope wasn't talking to you sorry and correct I am having problems quoting.



JohnK -> RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? (7/11/2004 6:28:53 PM)

Ok,

Finally found some excellent web sources (Official histories of the USMC, and the NZ WWII Armed forces, on the web)

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USMC/I/

http://www.nzetc.org/etexts/WH2Paci/index.html

and have sorted this thing out.....but I'm not sure what the UV solution is. Will mention on the OOB page and eventually I hope to write a really detailed post including my recommendations for either a patch or "house rules."

The problem with the Marines is being scattered all to hell, and units borrowing stuff from other units.
In the case of the Kiwis, it's that the 8th Brigade was the nucleus for the 3rd NZ Division; but the 3rd Division was purely fictional in 1942...those troops simply didn't exist to be deployed in 1942, especially with the extremely high morale and experience they get when they arrive in WITP in January 1942.

The major units of the 1st and 2nd Marine Divisions are the three regiments in each division, so we've got three to track.

A big fly in the ointment is 1st Marine Division borrowed a Regiment (2nd Marine Regiment) from the 2nd Marine Division for the Guadalcanal invasion.

Heres the sequence of when each Regiment left the US:

Jan 1, 1942: 8th Marine Regiment, 2nd Marine Division ships out from the US to garrison Samoa

April 2, 1942: 7th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division ships out from the US to garrison Samoa

June 1942: 5th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division ships out from the US for NZ

June 22, 1942: 1st Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division ships out from the US for NZ

July 1942 - 2nd Marine Regiment, 2nd Marine Division ships out from the US for NZ

October 1942 - 6th Marine Regiment, 2nd Marine Division (having been in Iceland till March 1942) ships out
from the US for Guadalcanal


A clear mess. Two Marine Divisions, and when to make them avaliable. WITP is actually pretty generous even with 1st Marine Division, having it appear in the US in the middle of May 1942.

Players can use "house rules" and split each Division into thirds and do a pretty accurate simulation of the above...

Just use 2nd Mar Div and send A out in Jan, B out in April.....but leave C in the US till October.

With 1st Mar Div, you can send the whole thing out in June or July.


In the case of the 3rd New Zealand Division.......

The 8th Brigade was PART of the division; not an extra brigade. The 8th brigade was, of course, in Fiji prior to the war starting.

So it's a problem for WITP to later have the division arrive.

The Kiwis reinforced 8th Brigade with another Brigade in Jan. 1942....but even AFTER that reinforcement, the force in Fiji was still only about 7,600 men....NZ was short on manpower, and the priority for full strength and reinforcements remained the 2nd NZ Division in the Mediterranean, even AFTER the war started.

And looking at the strength of the WITP 8th brigade, it's stronger than the 8th Brigade was in reality at the start of the war, but about as strong as the TWO brigades in Fiji in Jan. 42.....so, seems to be a reasonable "fudge" to have it at the stronger strength.

However, the fully manned and massively experienced 3rd NZ Division that arrives in early Jan. 1942 ready for Sopac deployment in WITP is an utter fiction; no such force REMOTELY existed.

There was nothing called 3rd Division till May 1942; and that referred to the two brigades on Fiji that already existed. And the NZ history speaks of constant manpower shortages, men being taken away for 2nd NZ Division in the Med, training problems, etc.

The NZ force on Fiji was relieved in early June 1942 and went back to NZ.

The 3rd Division, as a force with a strength actually resembling a real division, wasn't deployed outside of NZ till it went to New Caledonia from Nov. 1942 to Jan. 1943.

Of couse, New Caledonia was very much a rear area at that time, and then then spent their time training...no way they were an 80 EXP unit when they left NZ....

They didn't actually enter combat till September 1943.

So, 3rd NZ Division really shouldn't arrive till Nov. 1942 at the minimum, and one could make a plausible case it probably shouldn't appear in the game till July-August 1943.

And the Morale and Experience of the unit seems wildly inflated; not saying it was a BAD unit, there were very experienced officers taken from the 2nd NZ Division, but an arrival morale and EXP in the 65-70 range may be more realistic.

And of course it INCLUDES 8th NZ Brigade, so as a house rule players may consider withdrawing 8th Brigade when it appears.

Overall point is, the uber-strike force of 2nd Marines and 3rd NZ Division that the Allies have in Jan. 42 didn't exist; when I started playing the game, and saw those troops and their avaliabilty, I felt NONE of the "scrambling for troops" feeling the real Allies had.



gunnergoz -> RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? (7/11/2004 7:00:24 PM)

I think all this scholarly research into the 1st & 2nd divisions is great, I enjoy reading myself and like it when I see other "grogs" stretch their legs.

On the issue of how the game represents all this, however, we are speaking of an abstraction and compromises have to be made. In particular, I don't beleive that the game engine lets you split up units before the game starts, and lets them be reunited later...IIRC, if they start out split, they are effectively seperate units for the whole game. That wouldn't be satisfactory for these two divisions, obviously, since they spent the bulk of the war as divisional orgainzations once they were piecemealed together in '42.

I think the most elegant solution is the one Tophat mentions, which is to simply introduce the divisions in reduced size, and let them fill up from the replacement pool. The only problem with that is that their experience levels might dilute a lot, but even that is somewhat realistic. This approach would pretty much force the US player to sit the 2 divisions down somewhere with a good logistical situation, plan for their first offensives and build up to useful size. That's pretty much what the game accomodates and I concur that we don't need to complicate this game any more than it is already, from a coding point at least.

Just my two bits, your mileage may vary. [:)]



JohnK -> RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? (7/11/2004 7:06:46 PM)

Well, initially, 3rd NZ Div has to be delayed in WITP arrival till Dec. 1942 at the minimum...that's very clear, and not really debateable.....(and with some sort of EXP/Morale reduction.)

It's not the same as the Marines and simply being split up and scattered around; the 3rd NZ Div troops literally didn't exist in Jan. 42, (not even as a New Zealand Command unit, much less avaliable for SOPAC) except as 8th NZ Brigade, which is already in the game.

I can live with 8th NZ Brigade still being around after 3rd NZ Division shows up...unavoidable fudge, as 8th NZ has to be on Fiji at game start.........



brisd -> RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? (7/11/2004 7:10:19 PM)

Exactly, there was a real shortage of combat troops available for South Pacific at war's start and from what I'm reading here, 2nd Marines should be at cadre strength instead of full strength. How something like this could be missed is amazing to me, the division wasn't used at full strength until late 42, with some of it serving with 1st Marine Division on Guadalcanal in Aug 42. So I would imagine it would be available in summer of 42? The designers tended to not have divisions show up in OOB until at full strength, if they want to start creating a real nightmare then all divisions should begin at cadre levels if not available at full strength? And making up house rules to deal with easily researched OOB issues is totally unacceptable to this player.



JohnK -> RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? (7/11/2004 7:12:23 PM)

One other observation is I find it a BIT weird that when, say, HMS Irrelevant has 2 guns of some minor caliber and should have 3, people find the error and post on that faster, get more hot and bothered over it, and discuss it more than, say, a high-quality infantry division arriving a year too early.



Lemurs! -> RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? (7/11/2004 7:14:54 PM)

One of the problems with the 3rd NZ is that the division never existed. It was proposed to create the 3rd NZ but it did not happen. It was actually the '2NZEF' an, eventually, 2 brigade force.
It does not seem to have gained a 3rd brigade up through '43 at least so in my scenario i just removed the 3rd division and added the 2nd brigade in early '42. It does give NZ potentially 3 brigades to work with; the 8th, 14th and 5th.

Mike



gunnergoz -> RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? (7/11/2004 7:15:15 PM)

Well, they got it out "mostly" right, which is something. I'd guess that they wanted it to be 99% on the stability/playability side when it went out the door and left the "polishing and grinding" up to the post-release "play, pout, plead and patch" process that naturally occurs between game developers and customer fan base...especially one as vocal, knowledgeable and demanding as this crowd! I'm confident it will all be worked out and that the engine is fundamentally sound and up to the task.



JohnK -> RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? (7/11/2004 7:41:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

One of the problems with the 3rd NZ is that the division never existed. It was proposed to create the 3rd NZ but it did not happen. It was actually the '2NZEF' an, eventually, 2 brigade force.
It does not seem to have gained a 3rd brigade up through '43 at least so in my scenario i just removed the 3rd division and added the 2nd brigade in early '42. It does give NZ potentially 3 brigades to work with; the 8th, 14th and 5th.
Mike


Yeah, I read that at the NZ site, the commander actually referred to it as the 3rd NZ Division in correspondence but in official documents it's the 2 NZEF.

The thing is, the strength of the 8th Brigade and the second brigade added in Jan. 42 seems to match the strength of the WITP 8th Brigade, so personally I'm not going to use any of 3rd NZ Div at all until Dec. 42.



Theng -> RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? (7/11/2004 9:18:16 PM)

Why not take out the 3rd NZ Div as a fighting force and replace it with a 3rd NZ Div HQ, with the 8th NZ Bde in Fiji, with later deployments of the 14th and 5th? This should work, especially since it looks like from what I read here the 3rd NZ Div never fought as a coherent unit (NZ experts please verify - since I am none.)

I agree with a previous poster that the 2nd Marine Div should only start as a minimum cadre at the beginning of the game.



Tophat -> RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? (7/11/2004 10:05:53 PM)

Let me just state my comment and suggestion in a hopefully clear way:

JohnK i'm not trying to dispute your facts in the least way.However as concerns the 2nd Marine division you say:


Heres the sequence of when each Regiment left the US:

Jan 1, 1942: 8th Marine Regiment, 2nd Marine Division ships out from the US to garrison Samoa

April 2, 1942: 7th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division ships out from the US to garrison Samoa

June 1942: 5th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division ships out from the US for NZ

June 22, 1942: 1st Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division ships out from the US for NZ

July 1942 - 2nd Marine Regiment, 2nd Marine Division ships out from the US for NZ

October 1942 - 6th Marine Regiment, 2nd Marine Division (having been in Iceland till March 1942) ships out
from the US for Guadalcanal


All of these events happen after DEC 7th.........with the exception of the removal of the 6th Marines all other depoyments or movements of the Marine forces is up to us.Granted as i said before their strengths should be reduced and they need to accept replacements to fillout.This should probably dilute their experience and probably moral as well.
Before you jump on me as this being Non-Historical........all that the game needs to do is turn a player loose at an as historical Dec 7th as possible and let us all go at it! I verywell may send marines to garrison Samoa,but it will be "ME" that sends them! I am in a pbem game now about 19th Dec as the Allies and i'll be leaving a 2nd Marine reg in the US till October.
As for the 3rd NZ Div. i'll be leaving it in NZ till Dec 42' as well.
Not trying to be offensive to anyone just attempting to pointout that the games purpose is to effectively put the player in control as of Dec 7th 41'.



hithere -> RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? (7/11/2004 10:16:36 PM)

I hear you and agree totally. i'm not saying everything is right but I think that past a certain point it should be our call. What if I want to make Johnston Island my main base instead of pearl??? not smart but i should be able to do it. (with alot of time and res)
Not to slam anyone or to get flamed but it kills me that some times people state that so and so should not be able to happen because it did not happen historically, but in another thread you see them arguing for somthing to happen that would have helped and could have happened. I do realize that somethings are hard-coded and i really don't agree with that totally either.
I am not singling anyone out or referring to a particuler case!! If you flame me please be gentle...i am at work and grumpy because i want to be playing!! and i just spoke to ghostrider who is giving me a play by play.....aaarrrggghhhh [sm=Christo_pull_hair.gif]



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