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RE: The Best Mid Ocean Intersept EVER! - 7/13/2004 7:48:04 AM

MadDawg

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I had PT's boats sink the Yamato, her sister ship, two other BB's, about 4 CA's and 8 DD's in one day in a PBEM Im playing. That was the entire task force wiped out. I too had written it off to a lucky attack (very very lucky I know), but I think we are seeing more and more of the ninja PT boat attacks being reported and someone should do some testing.

As I mentioned in another thread I see no reason to risk BB's when attacking a surface group if 40 PT's will do a much better job and are valued at 1 point each.

Dawg

(in reply to siRkid)

Post #: 31

RE: The Best Mid Ocean Intersept EVER! - 7/13/2004 8:06:11 AM

Tanaka

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadDawg

I had PT's boats sink the Yamato, her sister ship, two other BB's, about 4 CA's and 8 DD's in one day in a PBEM Im playing. That was the entire task force wiped out. I too had written it off to a lucky attack (very very lucky I know), but I think we are seeing more and more of the ninja PT boat attacks being reported and someone should do some testing.

As I mentioned in another thread I see no reason to risk BB's when attacking a surface group if 40 PT's will do a much better job and are valued at 1 point each.

Dawg

agreed. i have had an entire bombardment group of BB's, CA's, and DD's destroyed by four PT boats

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 7/13/2004 1:06:37 AM >

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Post #: 32

RE: The Best Mid Ocean Intersept EVER! - 7/13/2004 8:32:21 AM

Tenzan

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Did PT boats historically sink anything larger than a barge during the entire war? ever? Anyone know?

I know early in the war they were credited with a few ships, but, according to the US navy this turned out to be incorrect..or propaganda, one or the other, don't remember...

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Post #: 33

RE: The Best Mid Ocean Intersept EVER! - 7/13/2004 9:48:11 AM

frank1970

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http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq20-1.htm

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waffen/S-Boote3-R.htm

But these were German e-boats (=PT boats).

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Post #: 34

RE: The Best Mid Ocean Intersept EVER! - 7/13/2004 10:00:36 AM

Jim D Burns

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Well looking at the screen shot, I don't see any kind of flames on the carriers, just the black smoke that appears after 10 sys dmg is reached. Could this be FOW and no hits were actually produced? Overexcited PT captain who saw the TF, launched, then fled and told his superiors how he managed to bag 2 CV's when he saw a bit of smoke on the horizon?

Jim

< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 7/13/2004 8:01:36 AM >

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RE: The Best Mid Ocean Intersept EVER! - 7/13/2004 10:01:54 AM

Primal Fury

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That is the most dramatic torpedo boat victory I can think of too. Still, LST's are really just glorified barges and in this case they were attacked at night and were either unescorted or poorly escorted.

Even at Jutland where torpedo boats were plentiful in a huge fleet battle, I don't think they took out anything very significant.

Fury

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Post #: 36

RE: The Best Mid Ocean Intersept EVER! - 7/13/2004 11:54:22 AM

Fallschirmjager

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With all those ships they would of been picked up, then the PT's would be doding a hell storm of 8 inch shells. If they decided to press home their attack then they 4.7 and 5 inch shells would come in sheets. And if they really damned the torpedos and went ahead they would meet a wall of 25mm shell fire.
PTS are high speed but still when you are talking about distances of 1000's of yards they arnt that fast. A near miss from an 8'' shell would probably damage or overturn a PT.

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Post #: 37

RE: The Best Mid Ocean Intersept EVER! - 7/13/2004 12:29:13 PM

freeboy

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Super long range torps that do travel at bout 350 kts??? A torp aafired at 30 knots.. a slow long range setting will simply be outrun by a surface ship unless it is fired point blank... and a 35 to 45 kts torp doesn't have such long ranges, and if they did what sleepy lookouts to not spot thesee and turn your ships to avoid????
After playing as the hjap and doing well against what little pt's I had forgotten these ... now what? I remember a post about pt's vs destroyers with miner pt damage and severe sevearly damaged dds.. ggcb
really now... PPLLLEEEEEAASSE !!!!! This is absurdity in all its glory.. or gory

< Message edited by freeboy -- 7/13/2004 6:29:47 PM >

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Post #: 38

RE: The Best Mid Ocean Intersept EVER! - 7/13/2004 12:35:40 PM

2Stepper

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Well, in MHO, I think this raises the question again about FOW in surface actions. In this instance it looks like each ship from both sides was represented on the battle screen. Yet only minor fire exchanges occured. I think we need to start seeing battles occur where only the "sighted" ships appear on the screen. I would have no issues with this battle really if only the one PT boat was seen. The one was blown outta the water afterall...

But ya Kid, I think you did open a MAJOR can of worms. LOL!!

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Post #: 39

RE: The Best Mid Ocean Intersept EVER! - 7/13/2004 1:37:18 PM

siRkid

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Night Time Surface Combat at 21,47

Japanese Ships
AK Kosei Maru
AK Kotoku Maru
AK Mansei Maru
AK Okitu Maru
AK Pacific Maru
AK Shinyubari Maru
AK Soyo Maru
AK Sugiyama Maru
AK Sydney Maru

Allied Ships
PT TM-9, Shell hits 10, on fire, heavy damage

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Post #: 40

RE: The Best Mid Ocean Intersept EVER! - 7/13/2004 1:37:36 PM

siRkid

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Night Time Surface Combat, near Menado at 39,67

Japanese Ships
BB Haruna
BB Nagato
BB Fuso
BB Yamashiro
CA Takao
CA Mogami
CL Kitakami
DD Shinonome
DD Usugumo
DD Shirakumo
DD Isonami
DD Murakumo
DD Amagiri

Allied Ships
PT PT-31
PT PT-32, Shell hits 10, on fire, heavy damage
PT PT-33
PT PT-34
PT PT-35
PT TM-4
PT TM-5
PT TM-11
PT TM-13
PT TM-14, Shell hits 1, and is sunk

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Post #: 41

RE: The Best Mid Ocean Intersept EVER! - 7/13/2004 1:37:55 PM

siRkid

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Night Time Surface Combat at 21,45

Japanese Ships
PC Shimushu
MSW W.1
MSW W.2
PG Tatsumiya Maru
PC Ch 7
AK Akita Maru
AP Asama Maru
AK Atutasan Maru
AP Daifuku Maru
AP Hakozaki Maru
AP Kasui Maru
AK Kinka Maru
AP Mogamigawa Maru
AK Nagara Maru
AK Nako Maru
AP Ryugi Maru
AK Sasako Maru

Allied Ships
PT TM-6, Shell hits 2, and is sunk
PT TM-7, Shell hits 14, on fire, heavy damage

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Post #: 42

RE: The Best Mid Ocean Intersept EVER! - 7/13/2004 1:38:13 PM

siRkid

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Night Time Surface Combat, near Menado at 39,67

Japanese Ships
BB Haruna
BB Nagato
BB Fuso
BB Yamashiro, Shell hits 5
CA Takao
CA Mogami
CL Kitakami
DD Shinonome, on fire
DD Usugumo
DD Shirakumo
DD Isonami, on fire
DD Murakumo
DD Amagiri

Allied Ships
PT PT-31
PT PT-33
PT PT-34
PT PT-35, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
PT TM-4
PT TM-5, Shell hits 12, heavy damage
PT TM-11, Shell hits 6, and is sunk
PT TM-13

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Post #: 43

RE: The Best Mid Ocean Intersept EVER! - 7/13/2004 2:28:10 PM

MadDawg

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Try sending the largest task force you can create over to the Allied base in the Marianas scenario and see what happens

I just did the above example with 20 Japanese ships including 5 BB's and they were *all* lost. Now on the other side of the coin there is something like 100 PT's there, and I did sink about 40, but something still doesnt feel right here. Maybe PT boats just need to be worth more points to discourge unrealistic use in order to represent the human life on board (they are one worth 1 point at the moment which seems very low)?

My main concern is that in later years players will use large amounts of PT's as uber death task forces. This didnt happen in reality and there was a reason for that, so it shouldnt really be able to happen here I think. According to Conways book all PT's were sold after the war as the US found them useful but not cost effective, but at 1 point each they sure are at the moment!

Dawg

< Message edited by MadDawg -- 7/13/2004 12:34:36 PM >

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Post #: 44

RE: The Best Mid Ocean Intersept EVER! - 7/13/2004 2:43:19 PM

Captain Cruft

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I say keep the random variation but prevent PTs from engaging combat vessels DD and upwards. After all, why was the "torpedo-boat destroyer" concept originally invented?

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RE: The Best Mid Ocean Intersept EVER! - 7/13/2004 3:49:30 PM

Tenzan

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One thing I'm seeing (I've set up a small test scenario)

In 'deep water' fighting, PT boats perform how you'd expect them to-from what I've seen so far. I can really appreciate Kid's example in the toipc, now! I haven't seen anything close to them doing that well, yet..

.............but, at a base PT boats turn into torpedo slinging fools! It's a stark contrast..I had 25 PT boats with a worse leader than their IJ counterpart sink Yamato, Nagato, Tone, Chikuma, and 3 DD's out of the task force(total was 2 BB div's, 1 CA div, 2 DD Div's with CL Leader=25 ships)

Npw, I know they're taking CD gun hits as well at a base, but..why so many more torpedo hits? I'll keep testing it, but, it's a huge difference that I can see already.

Hmm..in open hexes combat (when listed) is listed as starting at 5000m! Ouch, that's...well...interesting, but, in a base hex it's 2000m! So, there's all the torp hits...

Just about every time, I'm losing a major part of the combat fleet at the base-in daylight-to PT boats at 2000m...

The troubling part is that essentially, from what I'm seeing-TB's make bases virtually unassailable if a player was to 'spam' them with TB's. I don't know about anyone else, but, I wouldn't throw away an entire surface force and an invasion force at the hopes of getting past 20 TB's...I think, this is an issue for modification in a future upgrade...

< Message edited by Tenzan -- 7/13/2004 8:11:19 AM >

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Post #: 46

RE: The Best Mid Ocean Intersept EVER! - 7/13/2004 4:22:44 PM

ZOOMIE1980

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kid

Night Time Surface Combat, near Menado at 39,67

Japanese Ships
BB Haruna
BB Nagato
BB Fuso
BB Yamashiro, Shell hits 5
CA Takao
CA Mogami
CL Kitakami
DD Shinonome, on fire
DD Usugumo
DD Shirakumo
DD Isonami, on fire
DD Murakumo
DD Amagiri

Allied Ships
PT PT-31
PT PT-33
PT PT-34
PT PT-35, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
PT TM-4
PT TM-5, Shell hits 12, heavy damage
PT TM-11, Shell hits 6, and is sunk
PT TM-13

What we seem to have here (coupled with the other reports on PT boats) is yet another example of the range of randomness being much too large. Some randomness is interesting, but too much is ridiculous. The whole game needs to check its bell curves and make them all a bit less flat....

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RE: The Best Mid Ocean Intersept EVER! - 7/13/2004 4:30:36 PM

Tenzan

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hehe...I just want to know how they're getting 5000-2000m from surface fleets in daylight! Daihatsu launch camo? sheesh..the DD's could sink them by pouring bilge water on them from that range..

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Post #: 48

RE: The Best Mid Ocean Intersept EVER! - 7/13/2004 4:53:50 PM

Cap Mandrake

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadDawg

Try sending the largest task force you can create over to the Allied base in the Marianas scenario and see what happens

I just did the above example with 20 Japanese ships including 5 BB's and they were *all* lost. Now on the other side of the coin there is something like 100 PT's there, and I did sink about 40, but something still doesnt feel right here. Maybe PT boats just need to be worth more points to discourge unrealistic use in order to represent the human life on board (they are one worth 1 point at the moment which seems very low)?

My main concern is that in later years players will use large amounts of PT's as uber death task forces. This didnt happen in reality and there was a reason for that, so it shouldnt really be able to happen here I think. According to Conways book all PT's were sold after the war as the US found them useful but not cost effective, but at 1 point each they sure are at the moment!

Dawg

Can you imagine a surface TF of capital ships steaming into coastal waters at night with 100 PT boats idling quietly, 20 yds off-shore at 100 m intervals in every little nook and cranny of shoreline, invisible to lookouts and insvisble to radar because of ground clutter? Can you say "ambush"?

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RE: The Best Mid Ocean Intersept EVER! - 7/13/2004 4:54:11 PM

strawbuk

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Frank - E-boats/S boats operated in foggy gloomy English Channel/North Sea at night, often against rubbish british tactics. Italians had some fun in med for a while but soon got blown out by good radar.

All the light forces had much to much expected of them. And got too much glam prpoganda too. Reality is they are made of plywood, often powered by engines running on petrol (gasoline), and with the torps officer trying to get an aim while bouncing across waves at too many knots. Fancy that posting? (Must dig out my source book - sorry but packed away at mo.)

I think even the AKs 5, PTs 0 results are fair enough as PTs may get torps in on a couple of targets but they get shot at on way in AND way out by everything going. Sure a merchant gunner is rubbish, but one decent MG burst will disable a PT (kill skipper, puncher fuel tank, kill torp officer etc).

Finally a reminder that ships dodging torps is not all movie madness. Even a cargo skipper, if he sees the torp drop, launch is far enough away, and if ship is under way, could dodge a 'accurate' launch.

So, with out refernce to any specific result, I reckon comat results shoudl allow for these parameters:

Daylight open sea; PTs die rapidly (or give up attack) , picked up early by radar or Mk1 Eyeball, get no where near torpedo range, may be very very very lucky hit (ie once a war)

Night open sea; may be slightly better (but how did PTs find a TF in dark at asea anyway? Not a lot with radar early on? PT fanboys please correct)

Day or (preferbly night) from 'ambush' eg sat in bay/inlet waiting for TF to pass by along coast. Hidden against dark coastal background, which might also help clutter any radar, they probably get quite close and might launch before being spotted - but then all h*ll opens up.

And all bets are off if they can sneak up along a coats onto a stationary TF eg one unloading. This pretty much what e-boats did when they caught LST etc during the D-Day rehersal on Slapton Sands, and they got way unharmed. And that was off the armed camp that was UK in 1944.

Just a view hopefully based on some reality.

S

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RE: The Best Mid Ocean Intersept EVER! - 7/13/2004 5:30:43 PM

Moquia

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Remember the PT boats from the early PACWAR days. Invisble to aircraft and could turn back even the biggest invasion taskforce

.

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RE: The Best Mid Ocean Intersept EVER! - 7/13/2004 5:43:39 PM

Mike Scholl

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The words UTTERLY REDICULOUS come to mind. I've been looking through my sources
trying to find any major vessel sunk by PT's during the Pacific War. So far I've found
ONE. Unfortunately, it was a damaged American AP being towed back to Guadalcanal
by a tugboat. With a target speed of 3 kts, a squadron of PT's managed to hit it with
two torpedoes in a night attack with no opposition.

Can anyone cite an instance where PT's sank a large combatant vessel in the PacWar?

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Post #: 52

RE: The Best Mid Ocean Intersept EVER! - 7/13/2004 5:59:25 PM

Ron Saueracker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

The words UTTERLY REDICULOUS come to mind. I've been looking through my sources
trying to find any major vessel sunk by PT's during the Pacific War. So far I've found
ONE. Unfortunately, it was a damaged American AP being towed back to Guadalcanal
by a tugboat. With a target speed of 3 kts, a squadron of PT's managed to hit it with
two torpedoes in a night attack with no opposition.

Can anyone cite an instance where PT's sank a large combatant vessel in the PacWar?

BB Fuso
DD Teruzuki

But really, the surface combat needs help. No way in hell this could have happened in daylight!

Night time maybe vs ships with no crews. Those boats should have been shot to pieces at medium range by 4.7-6 inch guns. Can't imagine "college boys" acting so suicidal,anyway.

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Post #: 53

RE: The Best Mid Ocean Intersept EVER! - 7/13/2004 6:15:44 PM

UncleBuck

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If this was an attack in restricted waters i.e. Coastal Hex or Base Hex, then I can see the torpedoes doing serious damge. Lets see. You are a Heavy Cruiser or Battle Wagon with a very deep draft. You cruise up expecting to perpetrate some evil on the unsuspecting people, and Uh oh, a bunch of torpedoe boats are there. You coudln't see them till you rounded teh point and lined up on the bay, and there they were. They launch thier torpedoes. You are in a line of battle in a restricted waterway with lots of sand bars and reff outcroppings. You have a significant torpedoe belt, and a soft bottom. What do you do? DO you thorw your large task force into dissaray by excecuting a ful line turn to bug out, thus spoiling your attack, as wel as risking the rugged bottom rubbing your soft one, or do you take your chances with the torpoedoes? You can do the Torpedoe Wiggle and shoot your light stuff at the incoming torps, and hope to damage them or what not. I think most commanders would elect to take chances with the torpedoes instead of teh rocks.

UB

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RE: The Best Mid Ocean Intersept EVER! - 7/13/2004 6:19:26 PM

Jack Shelak

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LOL!!!

Did you win?

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Post #: 55

RE: The Best Mid Ocean Intersept EVER! - 7/13/2004 6:32:07 PM

kaleun

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I had a PT task force try to interfere with japanese landings in the philippines. The heroic captain, who had seen too many movies in his (short) lifetime, decided to tangle with the CL and DD covering task force instead. They reported hits on all the DD, before departing to Valhalah. The next day all the DDs were reported intact by the next DD TF that tried (quite unwisely) to tangle with them; they also joined the PT crews in the watery Valhalah.
In summary, I think the PTs, at least in the early war, are quite realistic.

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RE: The Best Mid Ocean Intersept EVER! - 7/13/2004 6:35:39 PM

Nikademus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

BB Fuso
DD Teruzuki

The PT boat attacks at Surgeo were brushed aside with no hits. Fuso was struck by a well aimed salvo(s) from the DESRON's

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RE: The Best Mid Ocean Intersept EVER! - 7/13/2004 6:40:11 PM

Nikademus

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I'll try and load the turn and see if the CV's were actually hit. Most daylight combats at medium to long range will see very few hits in the game.

One thing that did suprise me in the AAR was the sheer # of PT's Kid was able to create. (most of em "Dutch" PT) It was frustrating because have seen how effective, perhaps overeffective they can be and he had created some very large PT TF's. (DD's often arn't as successful) and of course they are the ultimate throw away weapon (build em with supply....cost one VP each)

Not sure yet if airpower can counter them. I had air units set to naval attack but they never intervened. Kid said you have to set them to 100 feet. Didn't get a chance to test this yet.

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RE: The Best Mid Ocean Intersept EVER! - 7/13/2004 6:49:42 PM

Ron Saueracker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

BB Fuso
DD Teruzuki

The PT boat attacks at Surgeo were brushed aside with no hits. Fuso was struck by a well aimed salvo(s) from the DESRON's

You are correct! Ooops.

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Post #: 59

RE: The Best Mid Ocean Intersept EVER! - 7/13/2004 7:02:36 PM

Tenzan

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quote:

I'll try and load the turn and see if the CV's were actually hit. Most daylight combats at medium to long range will see very few hits in the game.
.....overeffective they can be and he had created some very large PT TF's. (DD's often arn't as successful) and of course they are the ultimate throw away weapon (build em with supply....cost one VP each

At medium to long range they really aren't effective (or rather, definately NOT overeffective) It's just the close in base defense that has me wondering...At 2000meters, they're going to be overeffective for sure.

I'm assuming that in the game's calculation, the distances are all inclusive? i.e; 2000m is 2000m to everything-not to the destroyer screen that's 1500m to the cruiser formation that's 1200 meters to the battle line....right on up the pole. So, even there-2000meters range in base hexes is giving PT boats just a silly, silly chance of success....

heh..not to mention that at 2000m, one good 5" salvo of fused AA rounds should turn any PT boat attack into a nice pile of floating garbage....

< Message edited by Tenzan -- 7/13/2004 11:08:52 AM >

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