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Why do I play...really? - 1/17/2002 10:09:00 PM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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In the end, the question "why do I play?" is all that is important. When all the hype is gone; when you remove the arguements about this facet or that;when you get past version accuracy disputes; when you compare it against other styles (there is first person shooter, RTS, and turn based mainly); at the end, the question remains, why? Would any of us be here if the game wasnt something we found for free? What would we have "paid" to play Steel Panthers? Would we be here if it came to a purchase of an unknown quantity? Actually...how many here have actually got a "paid" copy of Steel Panthers for that matter (I have my copy of original Steel Panthers myself)? With me the question is simple.
Steel Panthers is a good game...well heck a great game. It was a great game when it was first released. I have seen plenty of wargames come and go. Some have looked fairly nice I guess. But I am not playing them currently. That says enough right there eh. When you consider I have no idea what an unsatisfactory game of Steel panthers even feels like. I have played sooooo many games now. In some I have had my butt handed to me on a platter too. I have seen all manner of results that caused me to scratch my head over.
But through it all, I cant stop playing it. I have a nice stack of wargames around here. All good designs. Always seem to much effort, to much trouble to care about playing them some how.
That is perhaps the single biggest compliment I can give. When its all said and done, all I want is Steel Panthers. It is the reason why I have such an incredible amount of wargames of the table sort. Yet all I want to play is Advanced Squad Leader. Nothing else has the "feel", the real "feel" of a great wargame. With me, a "great" game must be so incredibly fun, its not about winning, its about having so much fun you just have to experience the game itself.
I never care if I win when playing ASL, there is no such thing as a bad game of ASL. Thats why I love Steel Panthers. Its not about whether I won the game, it was fun just playing it. When 7.1 shows up I will likely upgrade without flinching. It can only get better. SPWaW is incapable of delivering a poor gaming experience.

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- 1/17/2002 10:33:00 PM

Mumdaan

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I do ) I have my original copies of SP1, 2 and 3 )
Kinda hard to play any of them on current hardware tho.

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- 1/17/2002 10:41:00 PM

challenge

Posts: 465
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LTS 9-1, I picked up the first Squad Leader game the year it came out. I have, over the years, found the occassional opponant to sit down and take the time to learn at least the basics of the game. Most of the time I would set up situations and play them out to see the how and why of small unit tactics. The bigest problem for others seemed to be the amount of time it took to complete a turn, the amount of time it took to roll the results of nearly every action. I didn't have any problem with it, but others did. I moved on and ever upward until I reached ASL. Mostly because of the unit size and the detail, I have never given up my facination with the game. I could run the same scenario multiple times and get a different result every time; I could forget a completely different set of details as well. I stumbled over a link to the Matrix site while posting to a thread on a sci-fi game site. I took a quick side trip and picked up SPWaW and I am hooked. All of the detail, all of the tactical variables, and more are there; all of the luck and oddities and randomness of a small unit game are here. I get a feel for the challenge and difficulty of reaching objectives with enough to keep it once I get there, and watch computer-generated units do the impossible; or crumble at the simplist task -- and I don't have to roll the dice! Even the friend who complained of the time each turn took in ASL has no problem sending hordes of Russian infantry forward to chew me up. I play because it is challenging to succeed; like chess it forces me to use combinations of pieces to gain a goal; it demoralizes me to the point of angst. But mostly, I play it because there is nothing else I have (and like you I have years of table-top and computer war game collections at my disposal) that gives me the same satisfaction of a game well fought -- win, lose or draw -- except maybe for chess. Would I have bought this from a shelf? Without as doubt. Have I bought a MC yet? No. But it is on my to-do list for this month. (Hey, I've only been playing for a month or two.)

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- 1/17/2002 10:50:00 PM

Jackk

Posts: 174
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From: Charlotte, NC
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Aye, I have my copies of SP1, 2, and 3, plus a campaign disk for 1.
I played MANY hours of 1 and 2. I bought 3 because I thought it would be the best of both worlds....it wasn't, I went back to 2.
When SP:WW2 came out, I got that and played it. Then SPWAW came out and that has been it. I've never turned back to any other SP variant....I just do not care about the others anymore.
I let others worry about pen and t/d values (thank you for your efforts), but I just play the game. It's all about fun, as you said, and that's why I play also. I've been blessed with super PBEM opponents who stick with me and the game. We thrash each other regularly, never really caring about the outcome. I asked one friend about a new match..."You want to stay in the desert"? He says "I don't care what the battle is as long as there is another battle".
And that there is the long and short of it....as long as there is another one. Hail! P.S. I still play TOAW, but that is at another level and challenges me differently

[ January 17, 2002: Message edited by: Jackk ]

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- 1/17/2002 11:25:00 PM

Charles2222

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I'm more inclined to think that the game is dominated by players of some or all of the previous versions. I don't think it being free enters into it at all. Sure, if somebody hadn't played many wargames before, and this type of setup, sure being free is likely to break a barrier, but even so it's complexity will take quite a bit of effort when you consider the ease of playing so many FPSs and RTSs. I have RGW at home, and though it seems very compelling to me, because of it's difficulty right out of the shoot with dealing with a number of reality issues, I haven't even got to the stage where I understand the fundamental differences in phases or how to move the units in the way they're used, so it sits till I don't know when. Unfortunately my BTR game is the same way, in that it sits. It is VERY interesting to me, but because a very childish bug remains with it, and unlike with USAAF, I cannot steer around that bug and not feel that I'm playing a complete joke. Maybe a good thing, but that game's bad bug didn't appear until three or four 'fixes' down the line, and all monitoring I do of their website seems to indicate that they have no intentions on fixing it and pretend it can be worked around. I suppose it's the mark of software development, that there's enough fair stuff out there, that works well, that can bide you over until the BIG MAMAS (the RTSs, the BTRs, and hopefully not the CLs, UVs, etc) get their act together. It's sort of a strange journey. So many of the relatively simpler games (AOE and now SPWW2 and SPWAW, for example) are being played by people like myself, simply because the BIG MAMAS are coming out of the box often quite inept. There's nothing that disgusts me more than having a killer game like BTR confined to almost the dustbin status because there's something "better to play" that I really only have nominal interest in. It's funny, if you ask me what my favorite game is, I really couldn't tell you (though I am playing one of them more than the others) because do I value the ability to play something which working for how it's designed more, or do I value something which I cannot play for the reasons stated, but has much more interesting ideals? I think you've griped about this sort of thing before. It does concern me that CL may go that same route. At LEAST one thing I can say for CL, it does have a testing base in SPWAW, so my concern isn't so great there, it's just those others such as UV and the aforementioned games like BTR that have me hesitant. Before, I would buy a game right away, now, however, I'm pretty much sitting back a couple of weeks at least and read the bug reports etc. It appears, that if you ever want a product which won't disappoint you with being very bad in some way, you have to discipline yourself to not buy it for a while, because it appears more and more that games are coming out with some very FUNDAMENTAL things askew. It seems people are concentrating more on trivia such as what time a division was available than in whether a portion of the gameplay is horrendously off. I'm pretty sure I can live even with bad OOBs in CL, and can probably expect the gameplay will be pretty sound in terms of what it tries to do, but anything else these days seems to be more and more of a tossup.

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- 1/17/2002 11:26:00 PM

campekenobi

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What a cool thread! Yeah, I have SP I & II, but with SPWAW, there IS no going back. I also play the first-person shooter "Day of Defeat" which is a Half-Life modification (like Counter-Strike) but for WWII. So what do you think of THIS: A COMBINATION of the hex strategy game of Steel Panthers, then you can JUMP IN to a first person mode to fight out a battle, then return to the map/hex mode w/ the results.... ok, just an idea, but back to Panthers World at War... I was having a problem with my new monitor & video card to run SP II, so while looking for drivers or a way to fix the DOS problem, I stumbled across this site... and BOY am I glad I did! Would I pay for it??? NO QUESTION! Is it in demand enough to hit the market? Probably not, but it could at least accommodate on line sales. That's why I created the alternate CD art for it (I like to have the whole PACKAGE), and I barely fit all the needed files on one CD-R. What do I like about the game? To begin with SPWAW's SOUNDS!!! That REALLY makes the difference. But some points have already been made about other games out there; I really love another strategy top-view game called Close Combat, and I do play that off and on, just like panthers, but it seems odd that something with such great graphics as Close Combat would compare to Panthers... why am I playing Panthers when I have the other games?! Well, I don't know, but there's something so satisfying about putting that target on a hex, clicking my mouse to fire & watching my tank go at it. I know in this game you can go as DEEP and detailed as you like, or you can play it on a lighter level (just move your troops around & shoot) and I like that too. I seriously hope the makers can make that 7.1 version in ONE file though, because I hate having to install 5 patches to get the game going... but all in all, this game is incredible!

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- 1/17/2002 11:56:00 PM

Omegaunit

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Steel Panthers is point blank the best engine I have found. I have a paid copy of SP 2 Sp3 and all three MCs I tried to explain to my wife wy I was so interested in SP and the best I could come up with were two quotes. "it's like chess only better." and "you might not be interested in war but war is interested in you."

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Post #: 7

- 1/18/2002 12:11:00 AM

Phil Buster

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Hi, people.
I�m one of those strange phenomenon who reached this game by downloading it without any reference before. I played board and computer wargames all my life, but never had a copy of SP before. I find it incredibly inspired, but disagree with the opinion that considers the game is complex enough to keep free enters out of it. SPWAW has lots of possibilities, but its mechanic is extremely intuitive. Obviously, if you are not a grognard and usually play FPSs, you will keep away from this game (personally I find those shooters absolutely boring). But if you are mad about wargaming and fond of historical ones, man, this is your game. I confess my sin: never played SP before SPWAW. But my conversion is complete. People from Matrix lead me to the light. Amen.

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Post #: 8

- 1/18/2002 1:43:00 AM

Skotty

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Seven years ago I bought my first hex based WW2 PC game, Panzer General. It was a good primer for my introduction to WW2 land combat. I was and still am an avid WW2 Warbird nut, but I was pretty clueless about land based WW2 stuff. PG inspired me to expand my military library.
Since then I have bought SP1, SP2, and SP3 and have all the campaign disks that SSI released, four in all. I played SP2ww2 when it first came out, played Scott Grasse's 50m conversion of SP3,
and all versions of SPWAW since. I also play SPWW2v4 & v5. To me its all good.
I have gone off to play other games of different flavors, but the SP series is the only one I have come back to over and over again for the past six years. This statement is testimony that SP is indeed my favorite game, period!
I now have a computer built that I will NEVER upgrade because everything I play on it WORKS! It consists of: AMD900 T-Bird, Voodoo 5500 AGP, and SBLive running W98SE. XP will NEVER come close to this box. All my DOS stuff works, using Mo'Slo utility to slow down SP1/2/3 and QQP's Perfect General 2. All this stuff works great. All my Jane's flight sims that are 3dfx optimized run great with fullscreen anti-aliasing.
Currently I have installed on my PC: SP1, SP2, SP3, SP3 Modenra by Ilja, SP2WW2v2, SPWW2v4, SPWW2v5, & SPWAW 7.0 w MCDF. I also I have tons of custom goodies installed, SPCAMO icons for SP2/3, new pics for SP1/2/3, and gobs of custom sound efx, some of which I have made myself. I have down loaded probally almost all of the SP related scens and camps from wargamer.com. I am an unabashed SP addict! And proud of it!
Skotty
B CO/127th Sig BN/7th Light Infantry DIV/US Army

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- 1/18/2002 1:58:00 AM

mao

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I frankly doubt i would have played SPWaW if it wasn't free; HOWEVER I will buy any MCs and I almost certainly will buy the upcoming games from Matrix.

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Post #: 10

- 1/18/2002 2:16:00 AM

Redleg

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I had 2 copies of SP1, 1 copy of SP2, 2 copies of SP3, and the "original" mega campaigns from Novastar. Donated all of the above to Human Society. Saw them on the shelf there for $1.00 each. SPWAW is *only* war game I play. I own a lot of them. Most don't hold my attention for more than 2-3 hours and they go to the shelf and stay there. For me, SPWAW is *the* game. P.S I wish that all of us who actually play the game would purchase at least one of the mega campaigns. In my case, I am quite certain that the cost will work out to far less than 1 cent an hour. Not bad for first-class entertainment.

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- 1/18/2002 2:16:00 AM

Jackk

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Charles - what are RGW, BTR, and UV? Sniper - Have you tried MOH:AA (Medal of Honor:Allied Assault) yet? I've been playing the demos for a few weeks and both solo and multi are a complete blast. Skotty - did they ever come out with those Tan camos for SP2....I remember a friend and I waiting forever for those

[ January 17, 2002: Message edited by: Jackk ]

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- 1/18/2002 2:39:00 AM

Warhorse

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I like SP2 also, and am replacing/adding icons to the shp files slowly. As I do, I make a tan counter-part, unfortunately, the closest to tan that I can manage with the photo-touchup tool in PSP6 is a brown variant

I haven't messed around enough with it to try masks or anything, if anyone has a tip, I would appreciate it!! Anyhow, I have made West German remake, to match with SPmoderna oob's, which are better in my opinion, adding icons for the Wiesel variants, and redoing a few other German vehicles to match LBM's. Also made a BTR-152, patriot vehicle/launcher, added the German vehicles/icons for the early Syrians, and much more!! Very slow going, but I like that engine to appease my modern warfare needs for now... I kinda like SPWW2 also, but the infantry is way too resiliant I think, and waaaay too leathal against armor!! I am doing a campaign as the Bulgarians, against the Greeks, hell, more tanks got blown up by 'invisible' infantry close assaulting than anything else, I quite, couldn't deal with that nonsense!! And that was with the hitting set to 250(lousy to-hit odds consistently), enemy troop quality to 50, and hidden fire off, just rediculous, might as well not even waste points on armor... SPWAW is waaay more on the money with the combat routines, but that's just my 2 cents

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- 1/18/2002 2:48:00 AM

Charles2222

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Jackk:

quote:

Charles - what are RGW, BTR, and UV?

Russo-German War 41-44, Bombing the Reich (AKA 12 O' Clock High), and Uncommon Valor.

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- 1/18/2002 2:53:00 AM

chpo

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I came into wargaming with the original Squad Leader and moved up to GI:Anvil of victory, but never really mastered all the rules past the "Iron Cross" stage. However, opponents were hard to find and thus I never invested in ASL. When Steel Panthers came I bought it, but not SP2 or 3. There were two reasons for this:
1. I preferred the tactical, WWII-based setting.
2. The game was so good I didn't need the upgrades!! I got the SP WWII game, but wasn�t too impressed with the 1.0 version and then forgot about it for a long while. Now that SPWaW works I am back in business again!

However, I would probably not have bought it. I would not have been convinced that this was so much better than the original that is was worth the money. However, having seen what Matrix has delivered I will be happy to buy the MC:s! I just have to play the scenarios first, maybe a few campaigns and create a few scenarios myself first....

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- 1/18/2002 3:30:00 AM

Charles2222

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Warhorse: Actually, I'm no more than 6 battles deep into SPWW2 V.5 I think your emphasis on infantry effectiveness may be somewhat misplaced, which, if I'm correct SPWAW ought to have to. What am I talking about? I'm talking about the infantry's ability to ignore armor unless they can assault them or fire some ranged AT fire at them. What this causes in enough instances, is infantry that stay hidden from the tanks and if any infantry are more then four hexes from the lead tank - watch out. Even so, the infantry as I mentioned get's blasted so the enemy infantry getting blasted by enemy small arms fire, reserved especially for them, makes for very interesting combat and almost feels as though every infantry squad destruction is a life-and-death matter. I think the largest infantry problem seems to be that they fire too easily out of massive suppression/losses and it "appears" that they fire their grenades and other weapons effectively regardless of the number of men. Actually, the real problem is the scouts with AT mines. I'm not too sure, but it almost looks as though they're specifically set to range one, or else they're at that range and firing on AFVs "only". The infantry may be alright in my estimates, particularly the fact that they don't waste a lot of time with units that they cannot damage (armor being shot with rifles), but the scouts are perhaps another matter. I am intrigued by one thing however, and that is that I've seen them fire a form of grenade at thin-skinned AFVs from a distance greater than one, but I don't think I've seen themn do that for thicker armor they couldn't hope to penetrate (maybe I'm wrong there). If true, that would make them eerily picky wouldn't it (and wise)? As I see it the problem isn't so much infantry toughness but perhaps lack of time to destroy them. In SPWAW, I almost never reach beyond 30 turns in a maeeting engagement while campaigning, but given what I've seen so far, it wouldn't surprise me if it takes a general "minimum" of that many turns to hope to get consistent DVs in SPWW2. I must say though, and perhaps you have experiences counter to this, it seems in the closing stages of advancing, say trun 18 on, that if there aren't that many infantry opposing you that are firing, and given that they are generally not firing on tanks anyway it makes sense, that they are not gunning for infantry laden AFVs, which if true and the spotting of those AFVs increases as it ought, then that could eliminate a considerable problem with hidden infantry. I must say for the couple of times I had infantry mounted on AFVs and they got assaulted, I was very surprised to see both the tank destroyed and the infantry raked beyond recognition. It's a pretty good compromise to having so many units loadable in SPWW2. It's unreasonable that the old tactic of laden AFV always saved the AFV from assaults, but both of them being practically wiped out isn't quite right either. Perhaps the best solution would be for minor damage to either tank or passenger and major damage to the other, assuming the assaulter has a second weapon to use on the second unit in the first place.

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Post #: 16

- 1/18/2002 3:34:00 AM

Bing

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I started wargaming in 1958 with a couple of Avalon HIll (remember them?) creations: Gettysburg and Tactics II. Over the years, I bought all of the SL stuff and then started with the ASL line. Got to be so complicated I wasn't sure I could ever figure out the 150 rules sections. Someone said,"You don't play ALL the rules in any one scenario, you know ..", to which I replied, God no, who would want to, besides who would live that long?? When computer games came it it was a lot of Harpoon ("Classic") and V4V, if anyone remembers that, plus Perfect General just for fun and then I discovered Grigsby's Pacific War and became a devotee, including editing the 70+ page help file and moderating the GGPW forum for a year or so. I bought SPIII, I think was the version, and thus far MCNA. I play a lot of sims - incuding Operation Flashpoint which is interesting but also rather childish, for me at any rate - and some flight sims including Enemy Engaged Comanche Hokum (if I ever get back to it). Somehow, I always come back to SPW@W. One very important reason for that is the ability to customize or edit literally anything and everything in the game. Replay value is about as high as it comes for me. Right now I'm replaying Bill's U2R, under v7.0 to see how it goes - and this replay (third time thru) is just as much fun as the others. The sound is quite good - I now have a Santa Cruz board and Monsoon MM-1000 speaker system and the arty barrages shake my small apt. With some spatial "juice" and increased bass EQ, the results are at times nearly frightenening. Last summer two poor souls came to the door, at night, to ask directions - as it happened during one of the famous W@W arty shoots. The two women REALLY weren't sure what kind of nut they might have encountered, but they didn't run screaming into the night either. I'm always happy to come back to SPW@W, same as I was years ago when GGPW woudl go on the shelf for a few weeks, then come right back down again and back on the HD (those days a 350 Meg HD was BIG for home users). I suspect I"ll get to MCLV pretty soon, then Watchtower and who knows what else. I would like very much to see a modern extension of W@w, but also undertand CL is coming out pretty soon, which I'm eagerly awaiting. I say three cheers for Wild Bill, Redleg, Fabio, Brent, Paul and so many others who have given so much to this game and the hobby of wargaming - without these gentlemen we just might not have a tac level computer game worth playing!!! Hip, hip, Horray!!!! Et seq ... Bing

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Post #: 17

- 1/18/2002 3:37:00 AM

Charles2222

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chpo:

quote:

However, I would probably not have bought it. I would not have been convinced that this was so much better than the original that is was worth the money.

I bought SP1 and later SP3. I didn't like modern warfare so I stayed away from 2. In the case of 3, to me it looked like a rip-off. I couldn't imagine how it could be worth another full price buck up. It took me finally about 4 monthes before I bought it, and after doing so, particularly when you consider the scope of the amount of units you could have, I couldn't see why I didn't but it. The SP Arsenal package, however, is something I've always considered a rip-off, though I suppose it might work for those into buying the product en masse.

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Post #: 18

- 1/18/2002 4:28:00 AM

Nikademus

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quote:

Originally posted by Charles_22:
I'm more inclined to think that the game is dominated by players of some or all of the previous versions. I don't think it being free enters into it at all. Sure, if somebody hadn't played many wargames before, and this type of setup, sure being free is likely to break a barrier, but even so it's complexity will take quite a bit of effort when you consider the ease of playing so many FPSs and RTSs. I have RGW at home, and though it seems very compelling to me, because of it's difficulty right out of the shoot with dealing with a number of reality issues, I haven't even got to the stage where I understand the fundamental differences in phases or how to move the units in the way they're used, so it sits till I don't know when. Unfortunately my BTR game is the same way, in that it sits. It is VERY interesting to me, but because a very childish bug remains with it, and unlike with USAAF, I cannot steer around that bug and not feel that I'm playing a complete joke. Maybe a good thing, but that game's bad bug didn't appear until three or four 'fixes' down the line, and all monitoring I do of their website seems to indicate that they have no intentions on fixing it and pretend it can be worked around. I suppose it's the mark of software development, that there's enough fair stuff out there, that works well, that can bide you over until the BIG MAMAS (the RTSs, the BTRs, and hopefully not the CLs, UVs, etc) get their act together. It's sort of a strange journey. So many of the relatively simpler games (AOE and now SPWW2 and SPWAW, for example) are being played by people like myself, simply because the BIG MAMAS are coming out of the box often quite inept. There's nothing that disgusts me more than having a killer game like BTR confined to almost the dustbin status because there's something "better to play" that I really only have nominal interest in. It's funny, if you ask me what my favorite game is, I really couldn't tell you (though I am playing one of them more than the others) because do I value the ability to play something which working for how it's designed more, or do I value something which I cannot play for the reasons stated, but has much more interesting ideals? I think you've griped about this sort of thing before. It does concern me that CL may go that same route. At LEAST one thing I can say for CL, it does have a testing base in SPWAW, so my concern isn't so great there, it's just those others such as UV and the aforementioned games like BTR that have me hesitant. Before, I would buy a game right away, now, however, I'm pretty much sitting back a couple of weeks at least and read the bug reports etc. It appears, that if you ever want a product which won't disappoint you with being very bad in some way, you have to discipline yourself to not buy it for a while, because it appears more and more that games are coming out with some very FUNDAMENTAL things askew. It seems people are concentrating more on trivia such as what time a division was available than in whether a portion of the gameplay is horrendously off. I'm pretty sure I can live even with bad OOBs in CL, and can probably expect the gameplay will be pretty sound in terms of what it tries to do, but anything else these days seems to be more and more of a tossup.

I just recently picked up BTR Charles, what 'big bug' are you reffering too that has'nt been fixed? heh, SCALE is what makes BTR sit on my HD. Sheesh, its fully possible, nay 'probable' that a single long campaign in BTR would take at least as long to play out as the real thing!!!!! Even at X8 speed

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Post #: 19

- 1/18/2002 4:36:00 AM

DanTepX

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I love SPWAW. I downloaded this game in June and since then I've become addicted. The only game SPWAW has had any competition with since that day I downloaded it is actually Unreal Tournament. Lately IL2 Sturmovik has taken up lots of my time, but it's Unreal Tournament that has "gathered dust"! Quite incredible that those 2 ultra modern games with beautiful graphics have to battle SPWAW for my playing time - however i guess it doesn't seem incredible if you've actually played SPWAW. I don't know the full reasons "why I play" but I keep on doin' it!

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Post #: 20

- 1/18/2002 4:57:00 AM

Antonius

Posts: 209
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From: Saint Arnoult en Yvelines FRANCE
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It was SP1 that prompted me to buy my first PC for private use

Played SP2 but don't like the way modern weapons are modelled; was however a early and addicted SPWW2 player (and has v5 on my PC)
But switched just a few months after its release; one pf my frinds was in the test teams and told me all the work on detailed armor warfare. Am a deeply addicted wargamer and play many games (CMBO, TOAW, PanzerCampaigns, etc). To me spwaw is the best in its category and I always make sure I have about half a dozen PBEM games going at any time.

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Post #: 21

- 1/18/2002 6:27:00 AM

tracer

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I started with AH board games back in the 70's, playing a turn a week against my uncle every Saturday when he stopped by. When I discovered SP1 I was instantly hooked and went thru Panzer General, SP3, and SPWW2...but SPWAW in the pinnacle. The fact that there's a community around it, and that it keeps evolving and improving, puts it far ahead of the others. Its in a class by itself.

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Post #: 22

- 1/18/2002 9:52:00 AM

Tombstone

Posts: 764
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From: Los Angeles, California
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I have SP1, SP2, SP3, all the campaign disks. I've always found this game lineage to be very compelling. If this cost money I'd buy it in an instant. It's the wargame I play more than any other, but I do play others. I still think Combat Mission, all the Panzer Campaigns games, and TOAW are amazing games... but nothing is as present in my mind as SPxxx. Part of it MUST be how easy it is to play once you learn the basics. It takes no effort to play. (it takes a lot of effort to dig yourself out of the trouble you get into when you don't think though...) SPWAW is absolutely the best version of the SP games ever. I think its great. Tomo

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- 1/18/2002 10:02:00 AM

Charles2222

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Nikademus: It's one that I believe started with the V1.05 patch. It's what I call a freeze ray. Any Allied fighters put on fighter sweep missions to German airfields, if intercepted from the front will freeze both the interceptor and sweeper until the one with the least endurance runs out of fuel (which ridiculously could leave them sitting in one place like that for hours of gametime). The worst part of it, is that the Gerry player can freeze a full squadron with one lousy intercepting plane (it is a graphical thing I imagine, as there IS NO CHANCE they will not freeze in this manner, like they would if they were truly trying to intercept)!!! As frequently as the German player must intercept in such a manner in the hopes of defending a base with aircraft on it, and sadly the AI seems to bomb only those sort of airfields, it is a problem which will occur at least once every time fighter sweeps are ran, which would be most of the time every day. I don't think it occurs from the south, but then again I wasn't so apt at figuring out when fighters were strafing down there and since Axis strength is minimal early on in the south I'm not very apt to guess very much. I'm not sure what the earlier version problems were, and I have considered playing one of those games, such as the game off the disk itself (V.1), but I've kept hoping the improvements made could include the erasing of the freeze ray and it just never happens. Other than version one, I don't I any longer have any of the tweener versions up to V1.05. I know the guy that's patching it doesn't offer anything but the latest version. You mention it'd take forever to play it, well, if it plays fairly well, believe me it's worth it. USAAF was the game it was patterned after, and in my opinion that's the best computer wargame I've ever played. Unfortunately, you might say, there's quite a lot of time comsumed with modeling the ENTIRE AIR WAR in Europe, not just the daylight strategic bombing of USAAF. Still, the idea of trying to research new planes and still trying to keep up a credible defense, and trying to learn little ways to find tactical advantages interests me despite the huge timeframe involved. I sure wouldn't want to try to play a human player in it.

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- 1/18/2002 10:11:00 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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Hmmm just dropping off a comment Was really impressed to see how far my thread went. Thanks guys for making this a very well recieved topic. I think judging by the wealth of SL and/or ASL players that seem to be in evidence, it might explain why SPWaW has done so well to inspire so much. I can remember once upon a timne scoffing at the silly notion that a computer game could reeeeeeally be anywhere as good as ASL. I can only say, Matrix, ASL and SPWaW is as good as wargaming gets. Everything else is second place at best.

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Post #: 25

- 1/18/2002 11:04:00 AM

Mark Ezra

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Have SP1 SP2 SP3....and, of course, SPWAW...and All the MC. The idea of "free" never entered into my choices. Like other posters to this thread, I have watched and participated in the evolution of this game from SP1 onwards. There are manny, many people to whom we owe a real debt of gratitude for their tireless effort to improve this game. The Matrix SPWAW has become the culmination of all these efforts (IMHO). That they cared enough to build a game like "The game I always wanted" for so many of us wargamers requires me to support Matrix in it's other efforts. Call it loyalty...hell, call it brown noseing...LOL...I just truly believe that this very small nitch market that wargaming is needs my support. Nothing saddens my heart more than when I read some post that goes on about this "cool, free game" that they have no intention of supporting by purchase of an MC. Each year I spend some entertainment dollars on new wargame titles. Most of them last only a few minutes on my hard drive. While I always hope I'll enjoy the new game, I feel it is incombant of me to help support the wargaming industry generally and certain authors in particular. SP in one version or another has been on my Hard Drive since the day I purchased it. When CL comes out you can bet I will have pre-ordered it. There ain't no free lunch, my friends...You like SPWAW? Buy an MC... or a coffee cup for pity's sake. Support the company that works so hard for all of us. OK, OK...rant over...LOL

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Post #: 26

- 1/18/2002 11:41:00 AM

Wild Bill

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Well, I won't bore you with a long history. My wargaming goes back to teaching myself Chess as a boy and then changing out the chess pieces for military hardware or soldiers on the board. Formal gaming came in the middle 60s when I started as soon many with AH, the pioneer. That went on for 20 years and a massive collection of boardgames. But that was then, this is now. My electronic experiences seriously began with Wargame Construction Set II, TANKS by Norm Koger. I got involved with the memorable Novastar and from there connected to SSI...and STEEL PANTHERS! I had the privilege of being on the beta team for SSI in every version of SP that has been done: SP, SP2, and SP3. From there I had the honor of still being in on the ground floor of SP2WW2, SPWW2, SPCW, and now SPWAW. Its been a marvelous esperience. I remember when I first got in contact with David Heath in 1997 to set up an SP site. He had little knowledge or interest in the game, but was interested in seeing it covered with a small website which I began, Wild Bill's Raiders...October, 1997. Seems like so long ago. Little by little I kept after David about doing more with SP. Michael Wood joined the old TGN group and we began working first on icons, then on OOBs and then got permission from SSI to update the code. The work on SPWAW has gone on for more than two years. Can you believe that? So after my over seven years of working on Steel Panthers from the first beta till now has been a wonderful experience for me. I'm delighted to have been a part of it all. I dreamed of so many thing I wanted in Steel Panthers. Now I have nearly all of them. I recollect talking long distance on one occasion some time ago with Michael Wood when we were implementing parachute drops. I said, "Michael, can't we please have a parachute blossoming for just a second before the landed unit appears?" By the end of that day it was done. And there were so many more experiences like that. Now we are on the portal of a greater game at Matrix, one that cannot help but overshadow the mighty Steel Panthers. That is Combat Leader. Everything you enjoy in SPWAW will be there and SO much more. Even so, I firmly believe that we have contributed to the longevity of the game (though it may have decreased mine!

). Steel Panthers is a classic and in the version we have is the culmination of many thousands of man hours to create a very real and pleasurable wargaming experience. I've been involved in the development and scenrio design for a number of wargames (and I still am!) but this has been what I feel is my most important though perhaps insignificant contribution. We've come down a long road, but it has been worth it all! Wild Bill

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Post #: 27

- 1/18/2002 1:34:00 PM

Rick Borovec

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Ditto to almost every prior post. I'll I can say is that Combat Leader will have to be one hell of a game to tear me away from my beloved Steel Panthers.

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Post #: 28

- 1/18/2002 3:40:00 PM

jdammeier

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I am a new player, but I have gotten hooked. I have not played many way games, but I have played a lot of strategy games. The thing about SP that really stands out to me is how much of a story every battle tells. The reason for this, I think, is the detail put into the game. Things like suppressed crew bailing out from a damaged vehicle, than making a run to the rear for safety. In most games, the vehicle would either be destroyed, or not destroyed, but the richness of the possible outcomes of actions really adds a storytelling aspect to SP's gameplay. Plus, the decision to not allow arbitrary saving and reloading in the mega campaigns was inspired. Kudos to the player community for putting up with such a challending design decision, this is the sort of thing that most gamers would not be willing to put up with.

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Post #: 29

- 1/18/2002 4:20:00 PM

toundra

Posts: 160
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From: France
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I am a wargamer since 1979!!
I also remember Wargame Construction Set well

For me SSI was THE wargames company and then AH.
I have my sp1,2 + 1 MC.
I have played sooooooo many games.
My nick name Toundra (tundra) come from SP1/2
I was always playing with TONSof artillery (like 4+ pages of artillery)
and a lot of infantry and only few tanks =/
At the end of each battle i have played the, ground was all flattened

One day a friend told me this town no longer exist now this is the tundra =P Now i am waiting for CL =)

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Steel Panthers World At War & Mega Campaigns >> Why do I play...really?

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Why do I play...really?