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Offensive and Defensive Frontages - 7/30/2004 7:45:26 AM   
Gallo Rojo


Posts: 731
Joined: 10/26/2000
From: Argentina
Status: offline 		Cheers!

This is a topic to which I never had a clear answer and that comes to my mind each time I begun a PBEM battle:
How many units you need to cover a front?

I mean: if I want to play a realistic battle, how many units do I have to deploy for a given map?

Yesterday, while I was cleaning some old stuff, I found the "Designer's Notex & Campaign Analysis" for Avalon's Hill PanzerBlizt.
That was a tactical board game, played in a hexagonal board (just like SPWaW). Only difference was that each hexagon had 250mts (hexes are 45mts in SPWAW).

Any way ... it says the following:

Defensive Frontages for GERMANS

Platoon = 1-2 hexes (5-10 SP hex)
Company = 2-4 hexes (10 to 20 SP hex)
Battalion = 3-8 hexes (15 to 40 SP hex)

RUSSIAN

Company = 1-2 hexes (10 to 20 SP hex)
Battalion = 4-8 hexes (20 to 40 SP hex)

I quote for pg. 6: "One readily apparent difference between German and Soviet doctrine is that the Russian practice of 'expending' rifle divisions in the defense. Almost all their strength was 'up to front' while the German unit was deployed in more depth."

"Offencive fronts were usual half of the defensive frontages. In this case the Russians did use depth. A regiment would attack on a frontage of 2 to 5 hexes (my note: 10 to 25 SP Hexes), a division on a frontage of 4-10 hexes (my note: 20 to 50 SP hexes)"

So ... assuming that this document is correct, if I want to play a realistic SO advance or assault against German positions in SPWaW, I have to buy one Battalion (3 Rifle Co) and make them advance in a map of a maximum of 25 hexes high.

Germans should be defending with one Co (in depth).

Now, that is A LOT of people in a in a Small Map! And if I add tank, there will be very few open space to maneuver.

When I stand for a defensive battle, my ideal (highlight: ideal) deploy goes like this:

I buy an infantry Co and do the following:
I place the Platoon Leader and place it in a given hex. Then I place the first Sqd under his command two hexes in front of him, and then I place the other two
Sqd on each side of the first sqd and two hexes apart from the fist sqd . (so that no tank can pass the line without being assaulted). To sum up: I build a line of inf. sqd separated two hexes from each other with the leader behind. Then I do the same for each platoon (see the attached screen-capture: you can see the detail of a Platoon deployed, and then a wider zoom showing the entire Company).

I usually complete the defensive deploy with one ATG per inf. Plt.

This way, I can cover 25 hexes with a Company. And if I where playing with the Germans I have to place the three Companies of a Battalion one after the other (in deep). This is consistent with what the PanzerBlizt book says.

Do you use this amount of troops when playing defensive battles?

And what happens during meeting engagements? I guess that in a meeting situation the front is more “fluid” so it’s a situation in which one may expect to see lees units all together and there has to be more space for maneuvering.

Any thoughts? Is there somebody with military experience or something that knows about this?




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RE: Offensive and Defensive Frontages - 7/30/2004 7:46:30 AM   
Gallo Rojo


Posts: 731
Joined: 10/26/2000
From: Argentina
Status: offline 		here's the company




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RE: Offensive and Defensive Frontages - 7/30/2004 4:17:05 PM   
Major Destruction


Posts: 881
Joined: 8/10/2000
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Major General Von Mellenthin devotes a chapter in his book "Panzer Battles" to summarize how the Russians fought. He also makes comment on how various German Generals conducted their battles.

Soviet tactics changed as the war progressed. He notes that in 1944 the tactics entered a period of refinement. The Russian generals were learning how to fight.

But their methods were fixed by manuals and doctrine. Preliminary bombardments lasted 2 hours. Russian artillery would rarely be less than 200 tubes and mainly of heavy calibre. They would fire 1-2 days worth of ammunition in this bombardment and keep 1 days worth of ammo for the next day, although the artillery would not advance with any territorial gains made by the troops. The front lines that received this pounding were effectively ploughed under and guns and men were pulverized.

Thus it would be left to the few survivors to stem the wave upon wave of Russian infantry that was hurled at them. By 1944, these mas human waves were complemented by massed tank waves. He notes that the Russians were poorly trained and it was common for a tiger to destroy 30 tanks per hour.

I recommend you read his work.

MD

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They struggled with a ferocity that was to be expected of brave men fighting with forlorn hope against an enemy who had the advantage of position......knowing that courage was the one thing that would save them.

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RE: Offensive and Defensive Frontages - 8/1/2004 12:39:04 AM   
Gallo Rojo


Posts: 731
Joined: 10/26/2000
From: Argentina
Status: offline 		Thanks Major D.
I read that book (some years ago).

What interest me to know is how many units you guys deploy in a given map.
I'm trying to find a rule about how many units should I have to deploy in order to play a realistic battle in a Steel Panthers map.

Example: if you are to play a meeting in a 100x100 map, how many Armor and Infantry Co you buy?

I don't have any idea about what is reaslitic for a Meeting.
But if I take the PanzerBlizt manual for good, and I translate its sugestions for Offencive/Defencive battles in terms of a Steel Panthers map, what I have is the following:

If I want to play, for example, a Soviet Assault against German positions in a Map of 25 height x 100 Deep I have to deploy one German Company against one Soviet Batallion... And that is if I only want to represent the vanguard of both sides clashing; If my goal is to represente the entire deep defence/attack, I should heve to deploy 3 German Companies deployed one after the other against one Soviet Regiment (that is aprox 9 Companies if I'm not wrong). And we're talking about infantry only, if we want to add some armor, the amount of units in a map of 25 hexes is really enormous

< Message edited by Gallo Rojo -- 7/31/2004 11:41:09 PM >

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RE: Offensive and Defensive Frontages - 8/3/2004 8:51:50 PM   
RockinHarry


Posts: 2963
Joined: 1/18/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Interesting topic, but I unfortunately do not have the time for real in depth discussion. Some time ago I purchased some original german infantry tactic manuals from WW2 and they are some highly interesting reads as you can think! (one is "Tactics within frame of a reinforced infantry battalion", publisher "Offene Worte" Berlin, 1940/41)

some brief example: Normal frontage for an infantry platoon in defense was considered to be between 200 to 500m (4 to 10 hexes). That´s just a rule of thumb as it depends much upon combat situation, terrain, whether units are full strength or not and whether you hold back a squad in reserve. Also a company or battailon seldomly fights alone without its support troops, which are HMG´s, infantry guns, mortars and any available artillery (AT and/or offboard). So in a defensive deployment you need to consider these support troops as well and a pure "physical" covering of a given frontage neither is practical nor desired. In fact a usual (german) infantry defensive deployment covers a frontage with "fire", not just with troops. That means the unavoidable gaps are effectively covered with support weapons, which are little bit layed back most of the time, preferably in "keyholed" positions covering a certain part of the front. German doctrine also stresses AT defense to be most important when deploying for defense and defensive terrain is chosen accordingly. Everything else comes second. Unfortunately that does not work well in SPWAW, as terrain like forests, swamps and creeks are not really something of an AT obstacle in this game.:( (scenario makers can workaround though) Also german doctrine calls for local counterattacks if the main defensive line is penetrated. That usually means that even if a Cpy. or Btl. is at full strength, parts of it (~1/4 - 1/3) is held in reserve and is not directly available to man the frontline.

Well..that´s just a very rough sum up as said and things are different for attack and meeting engagement battles as well, although similar considerations concerning terrain, support ect. need to be taken when it comes to applying frontages for certain formations.

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RE: Offensive and Defensive Frontages - 8/4/2004 3:05:32 AM   
Major Destruction


Posts: 881
Joined: 8/10/2000
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gallo Rojo

Thanks Major D.
I read that book (some years ago).

What interest me to know is how many units you guys deploy in a given map.
I'm trying to find a rule about how many units should I have to deploy in order to play a realistic battle in a Steel Panthers map.

Example: if you are to play a meeting in a 100x100 map, how many Armor and Infantry Co you buy?


The answer to this is not a simple one. It would depend on your plan.
It also depends on whether you play a human or computer opponent.
And command control plays a part too. On or off?

There was a very good scenario included with version 7.1 named something like Return of The Fire Brigade. This was a good scenario that well illustrated German defensive tactics. Did you play it? It does not appear in the v8 scenario list. Maybe it should be updated for v8?

_____________________________

They struggled with a ferocity that was to be expected of brave men fighting with forlorn hope against an enemy who had the advantage of position......knowing that courage was the one thing that would save them.

Julius Caesar, 57 BC

(in reply to Gallo Rojo)
Post #: 6
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