Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Tigers in Stalingrad?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Steel Panthers World At War & Mega Campaigns >> Tigers in Stalingrad? Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Tigers in Stalingrad? - 1/24/2002 12:56:00 AM   
Gallo Rojo


Posts: 731
Joined: 10/26/2000
From: Argentina
Status: offline 		I'm reading Antony Beevor's book about Stalingrad ...
He mention at his book that there was a Tiger Batallion attached to Kirchner's LVII Armored Korps.
Wich batallion was that? sPzAbt 503?
Is there any scenario avaiable about it?
Do any of you have data about losses, battles fought, about this particular Tiger Abteilung during this particular time?
Tanks in advance.

_____________________________

The bayonet is a weapon with a worker on each end
Post #: 1
- 1/24/2002 12:26:00 PM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline 		I'm not the Tiger fanatic or that knowledgeable. If they did show up it was probably after the fact. I think the first Tigers were deployed by Army Group North in the Leningrad area in very late 42 or very early 43. That is trying to remember the facts. I'm sure others will be more precise..WB

_____________________________


In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant

(in reply to Gallo Rojo)
Post #: 2
- 1/24/2002 12:56:00 PM   
Grenadier


Posts: 981
Joined: 5/10/2000
From: Newport Beach, CA USA
Status: offline 		SPA 503 did not arrive until the 1st week of January and was unloaded at Rostov and sent to the Manych River area to join KG Sander, a part of Senger und Etterlin's 17th Panzer Division.

_____________________________

Brent Grenadier Richards




__________________


[url=http://

(in reply to Gallo Rojo)
Post #: 3
- 1/25/2002 2:43:00 AM   
orsha

 

Posts: 31
Joined: 8/16/2001
From: London
Status: offline 		17th Panzer division took part in operation WinterStorm to relieve stalingrad. Does that mean the Tigers were used in WinterStorm with the 503rd heavy battalion attached to the 17 PZ Division??.

_____________________________


(in reply to Gallo Rojo)
Post #: 4
- 1/25/2002 4:19:00 AM   
Grenadier


Posts: 981
Joined: 5/10/2000
From: Newport Beach, CA USA
Status: offline 		No. Wintergewitter was over by January and the LVII Panzer Korps had withdrawn from Kotelnikovo towards Manutchskaya. Tigers in Combat by Thomas jentz has the details

_____________________________

Brent Grenadier Richards




__________________


[url=http://

(in reply to Gallo Rojo)
Post #: 5
- 1/25/2002 10:34:00 AM   
Gallo Rojo


Posts: 731
Joined: 10/26/2000
From: Argentina
Status: offline 		Thanks on the feedback guys
Antony Beevor's book says that Tigres saw action duringWinterstorm operation ...
But all I have read before said that 503 SPzAbt arrived to caucasus area after Winter Storm had finished ... It was very disgusting to me discovering such a mistake in this book Brent's comments puts light on all this Brent: do you know if 503 fought at the defence of Rostov? Tanks in advance

_____________________________

The bayonet is a weapon with a worker on each end

(in reply to Gallo Rojo)
Post #: 6
- 1/25/2002 2:13:00 PM   
Grenadier


Posts: 981
Joined: 5/10/2000
From: Newport Beach, CA USA
Status: offline 		Yes, it did. It was at Rostov defending the Batiask bridge crossings. Only one company of the abtielung was operational by then because of breakdown. Thomas jentz's Tigers in Combat has a lot of detail on this engagement. The best material about Wintergewitter is from "Neither Fear nor Hope" by Senger und Etterlin, Stalingrad by Heinz Schroter, and "Hitler Moves east" by paul carell. Another good book is the History of the 6 Panzer Division by Helmut Ringten. This was the primary division in LVII Panzer Korps, contributing 150 of the Korps 230 tanks.

_____________________________

Brent Grenadier Richards




__________________


[url=http://

(in reply to Gallo Rojo)
Post #: 7
- 1/25/2002 6:15:00 PM   
Tombstone

 

Posts: 764
Joined: 6/1/2000
From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline 		You'd be surprised how much error exists in many 'history' books about ww2. They often cite sources that weren't working on perfect data or in some cases just follow the generally held ignorant opinion. I'm reading "The Road to Berlin" by John Erikson. There are lots of errors. It suffers from the historical/mythical version of the battle of Kursk that puts 900 german tanks a hundred of which being Tigers at the scene of the July 11/12 Prokhorovka battles... I'm pretty sure there were like 30 Tigers and a couple hunded others, but a third of them were on the other side of a river dealing with their own problems (that's nowhere near 900). The book refers to 'groups of tanks hundreds strong' left and right. Certainly, it doesn't cover the battles in extreme detail, but getting facts so grossly in error is upsetting. It also refers to GrossDeutschland as an SS Panzer Division... there are several other instances of blatant innaccuracies. It's important to read as many different sources as possible, I think it's that there's so much data out there that it's easy to screw things up. I like David Glantz's works a lot. They always appear objective and thoughtful of possible exaggeration and take utilise both German and Soviet records to come to conclusions. Tomo

_____________________________


(in reply to Gallo Rojo)
Post #: 8
- 1/25/2002 8:13:00 PM   
Gallo Rojo


Posts: 731
Joined: 10/26/2000
From: Argentina
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Brent:
Yes, it did. It was at Rostov defending the Batiask bridge crossings. Only one company of the abtielung was operational by then because of breakdown. Thomas jentz's Tigers in Combat has a lot of detail on this engagement. The best material about Wintergewitter is from "Neither Fear nor Hope" by Senger und Etterlin, Stalingrad by Heinz Schroter, and "Hitler Moves east" by paul carell. Another good book is the History of the 6 Panzer Division by Helmut Ringten. This was the primary division in LVII Panzer Korps, contributing 150 of the Korps 230 tanks.
Thanks again It would be very dificult for me to get any of those books here in Buenos Aires. Do you know about any web site where I can found data about this subget? Thanks again

_____________________________

The bayonet is a weapon with a worker on each end

(in reply to Gallo Rojo)
Post #: 9
- 1/25/2002 11:16:00 PM   
Grenadier


Posts: 981
Joined: 5/10/2000
From: Newport Beach, CA USA
Status: offline 		Tomo, For the Soviet records Erickson is really very good. I used his work as a lot of the material for Lost Victories. The reason GD is referred to as an SS division in Erickson is that the Soviets had it as an SS division. Erickson used older, pre-Glasnost Soviet sources and therefore that by itself is a problem. Glantz uses current Russian sources from the original archives, not the Istorii the Kremlin put out in the 60's. To balance Erickson, the Seaton book works best, "The Russo-German War" along with Ziemke, Moscow to Stalingrad" and "Stalingrad to berlin" coming from German OKH records and unit histories. The absolute worst book on Zitadelle is martin caidin's "The Tiger's are Burning". he has Tigers being destroyed all over the place at Kursk. [ January 25, 2002: Message edited by: Brent ]



_____________________________

Brent Grenadier Richards




__________________


[url=http://

(in reply to Gallo Rojo)
Post #: 10
- 1/25/2002 11:18:00 PM   
Grenadier


Posts: 981
Joined: 5/10/2000
From: Newport Beach, CA USA
Status: offline 		Use Stalingrad in a web search. I do not use the web for much of my research. Like the bookseller in "The Neverending Story" I prefer books.

_____________________________

Brent Grenadier Richards




__________________


[url=http://

(in reply to Gallo Rojo)
Post #: 11
- 1/26/2002 6:18:00 AM   
Redleg


Posts: 1805
Joined: 5/23/2000
Status: offline 		Take some of these books with a grain of salt. I recently read a respected author's book and and a chapter was lifted verbatim from a U.S. Army Technical Manual..... almost word-for-word. Talk about deja-vous! ;-)

_____________________________


(in reply to Gallo Rojo)
Post #: 12
- 1/26/2002 10:21:00 AM   
Gallo Rojo


Posts: 731
Joined: 10/26/2000
From: Argentina
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Brent:
Use Stalingrad in a web search. I do not use the web for much of my research. Like the bookseller in "The Neverending Story" I prefer books.
I prefer books to Brent. But as I said is dificule to find a wide variety of WW2 here (and I know all the books stores in the city, the specialized on military&history and the regular ones -I'm a writter-.
And the few ones that you can find are very expencive and get sold out very fast.

_____________________________

The bayonet is a weapon with a worker on each end

(in reply to Gallo Rojo)
Post #: 13
- 1/26/2002 10:23:00 AM   
Gallo Rojo


Posts: 731
Joined: 10/26/2000
From: Argentina
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Gallo Rojo:
I prefer books to Brent.
I mean too

_____________________________

The bayonet is a weapon with a worker on each end

(in reply to Gallo Rojo)
Post #: 14
- 1/26/2002 1:13:00 PM   
Grenadier


Posts: 981
Joined: 5/10/2000
From: Newport Beach, CA USA
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Gallo Rojo:
I prefer books to Brent..
I'll try not to take that personally

_____________________________

Brent Grenadier Richards




__________________


[url=http://

(in reply to Gallo Rojo)
Post #: 15
- 1/27/2002 12:03:00 AM   
Gallo Rojo


Posts: 731
Joined: 10/26/2000
From: Argentina
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Brent:
I'll try not to take that personally
please don't do so!

_____________________________

The bayonet is a weapon with a worker on each end

(in reply to Gallo Rojo)
Post #: 16
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Steel Panthers World At War & Mega Campaigns >> Tigers in Stalingrad? Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

2.609