War Plan Orange mod - question for you guys, the players

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> War Plan Orange mod - question for you guys, the players

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War Plan Orange mod - question for you guys, the players - 8/3/2004 5:03:51 AM

Tankerace

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From: Stillwater, OK, United States
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As of now I am doing the graphics and OOB for my new mod, "War Plan Orange". The Basic frame (as I have it now) consists of two scenarios, one in 1922, the other in 1924. being set so early (a 'la War Plan Orange), Carriers will no longer occupy the central role. In the scenarios, the Japanese have the same basic objectives as they did in WW2, but now must accomplish it with dreadnoughts. In the 1922 scenario, the two sides square off using their WWI battle fleets. This means predreadnoughts from Japan's Russo-Japanese war and America's Spanish-American war will be included as well. In the 1924 scenario, the never were designs make an appearance. So, the Japanese receive the Amagi class Battlecruisers and Kaga class BBs, while the US gets the 1st South Dakotas, the Lexington class CCs, and the Brits get 4 Hoods (granted, not all will necessarily come into play). Both assume that the Washington Naval Treaty was never signed/ratified.

In addition, in both scenarios, each side receives 2 carriers. The Japanese the Hosho and the Shokaku (the sister scrapped by the Washington Treary), while the US gets the Langley, and possibly the British Furious.

What my question is, Would you guys, who will play the mod, want the opporotunity to convert the Akagi's and Lexington's to carriers? When the scenario starts, they will have 20 or so sys damage, to represent still being completed. If you decide to convert to CVs, they will then have 35-40, thus representing the time to convert them.

So, post in with your thoughts. I am still creating the OOB, and haven't really scratched the surface yet, but I'd like to know your thoughts. Thanks guys.

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Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
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Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

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RE: War Plan Orange mod - question for you guys, the pl... - 8/3/2004 5:57:09 AM

Jorm

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From: Melbourne
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Hi Tanker
Yep id play a war plan orange mod
i have just gotten a few books on it with a mind to develop such a mod my self
i would prefer 1933 to 1936 as a date as its a more interesting time with respect to numbers of carriers and aricraft, also its not so far removed from the 1941 start date to challenge the game system as much
perhaps we could swap data , ideas etc
id liek to include french indochina as well but data may be hard to come by
cheers
Paul

(in reply to Tankerace)

Post #: 2

RE: War Plan Orange mod - question for you guys, the pl... - 8/3/2004 6:03:58 AM

Fallschirmjager

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I like the dreadnaught idea.
Will you modify land forces to look like WW1 units?
How will ships spot one another with the primative short ranged aircraft that were in the time period?
If nothing gets spotted then there is no combat.

I am really really hoping someone does a Russo Japanese 1904 war mod...

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RE: War Plan Orange mod - question for you guys, the pl... - 8/3/2004 6:04:43 AM

Jorm

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one of the books i have outlines many of the base developmenst in the western pacific, aleution <sp?> islands and around the phillipines.
I think ship and aircraft OOBs would be relativly straight forward but things like units and locations would be a pain.
again i think a 1933 start would be better time frame, but hey im open to suggestions

1933 to 1936
1. The upgrade path for ships is easy to find in refernce material
2. interesting aircraft
3. some of the carriers were commisions in that time frame
4. french indochina is a real option
5. war plan orange covers 1989 to 1941 time frame so it doesnt have to be fixed yet
6. some of the units are already inthe game making modding that much easier
7. although there were airship 'carriers' i dont hink they were sucessful and none ofthe two im aware of were ever used sucesfully. ie in war gaming/maneuvers of the time they failed pretty badly

let me know what you think

(in reply to Jorm)

Post #: 4

RE: War Plan Orange mod - question for you guys, the pl... - 8/3/2004 6:28:11 AM

Tankerace

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Well, a 1936 setting would probably be an easier startting frame, but to truly realise what Plan Orange was designed for (i.e., carriers are scouts, and the battle line is the dreadnoughts), a 1920's era would simulate this better.

As for scouting, again you would have to rely on what naval planners envisaged at the time, i.e. your subs will find the units, then they hit the land bases, and then you retaliate. Its kind of a a punch, counter punch sort of thing. Your subs and carriers would be your eyes, and your battleships the fist.

What could be done is we have both options, the first two scenarios (my idea) representing what naval designers originally planned and anticipated, while two other scenarios (your idea) would allow the player to still react following plan orange, but work a limited carrier play into it. This would be more of a stock scenario, with earlier options to it.

As far as upgrade paths, there were only one set of major upgrades per side, really. In 1928-1932 the US reconstructed all of it dreadnoughts built prior to the Tennessee class, giving all but the New Mexicos and Wyomings Tripod masts, and converting the Wyoming and Utah into target ships.

Around the same period, the surviving Japanese dreadnoughts were rebuilt, with Pagoda masts instead of tripods, and rebuilding the Kongos into fast battleships, while demilitarizing the Hiei into a target ship (she was later remilitarized).

For a more realistic, and probably easier, approach, a 1936 start would be better. But, to capture War Plan Orange the way it was intended (a possible Pacific War right on the Heels of WWI), a 1920's start would be the better choice.

However, you must also realize that a 1936 start, while being more historical, would only yield a few more carriers to each side, while drastically reducing how many battleships and dreadnoughts are available.

I propose this. A 1920's era would follow the spirit of Plan Orange better, yet be more ahistorical to WW2, whereas a 1930's era would be more historical, but really, in effect, give each side fewer carriers and not change the spirit of the game that much.

Perhaps, we could do this. The 1920's mod would be the larger, more radically changed mod. Why don't you do a smaller mod covering a 1930's setup, and I'll do my massive 1920's setup, and that way we can cover both possibilities. That way, players can get a feel for both sides, and in a way learn just how prepared/unprepared for WW2 when it finally came.

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RE: War Plan Orange mod - question for you guys, the pl... - 8/3/2004 6:41:55 AM

TF 38

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I'd go 1930's.

If you do the 1920's, the U.S. will be too strong to trifle with, relative to the IJN.

Same thing with the Royal Navy, they'd have no KM to distract and/or attrition them.

Those two navies have to undergo a lotus-eating period while the Japanese break deals and build-up to level the cricket field.

The air elements were a lot more interesting circa '35-38 as well, but not the all-dominant feature that they would become in the 1940s.

TF 38

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RE: War Plan Orange mod - question for you guys, the pl... - 8/3/2004 10:29:02 AM

Jorm

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The reading ( limited) ive done on war plan orange, to date seems to idicate the main focus was the phillipines. A 1920's scenario would be fasinating, all those predreadnoughts that rusted away and never saw the war they were designed to fight.

what do you intend to do about China ?

I think there is real scope for both decades and id be mroe than happy to swap data/info to assist. As ist still very early days and ive a trip to San Diegoto plan, i doubt i will get much done in the next month anyways
my plan

1. Read more about war plan Orange ( i have a book on it)
2. determine the geopolitics of the time to see who would be involved, ie any british /commonwealth/french/dutch/Siamese etc
3. get data for aircraft tOOB
4. get data for ship OOB
5. Get unit OOB, ie squardons/locations
6. get data for bases , ie which ones where developed/ which ones were considered important at the time of war plan orange
7. Land unit OOB, may be very hard , i have almost nothing reference book wise on this

I plan to make a 1 to 3 year scenario to allow for ship mods and ship commisioning over the time frame, ie a number of japanese carriers came online over the 33 to 37 period.

cheers
Paul

(in reply to Tankerace)

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RE: War Plan Orange mod - question for you guys, the pl... - 8/3/2004 4:41:58 PM

mccavage

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You may want to pick up a book called "The Great Pacific War" by Hector Bywater. It is available in paperback from Amazon very cheaply and comes with a complete OOB for both sides to fight out the conflict in the early 30's.

This would seem to be a perfect companion to the Plan Orange scenarios you are crafting, which sound really fascinating.

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RE: War Plan Orange mod - question for you guys, the pl... - 8/3/2004 4:48:46 PM

Jorm

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outstanding

ill order it tomorrow !!!

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RE: War Plan Orange mod - question for you guys, the pl... - 8/3/2004 4:59:20 PM

UncleBuck

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I think the game would be fun, but slow. Remember the plan was to either have the Fleet sail from the EAST coast through the Canal, to the Philippines. The PI was to try and hold for the TWO MONTHS it was going to take the fleet to get there. IF it is slightly later than the mid twenties, and the fleet had moved to San Diego it is now one Month to the PI. Carriers would not be too tough. Just put the Gladiators on the Carriers along with some of the Bi-plane Dive Bombers, and maybe a few Torpedo planes. The carriers should not be very effective except for scouting. They may ding up a BB but they are not likely to kill one. Also if you move the scenario to mid thirties you can incorporate some of the longer range Sea Planes to spot fleets. Another problem the Americans had with Plan Orange was coilers for the ships. They had a few forward coal/oil depots but the major one was in ... the PI. Where would you place the re-supply point? I do not know if Hawaii was a major re-supply point or not. I believe Plan orange called for the forward deployment of Colliers that would leave San Diego with the fleet and set up in rear areas. How would you stage this?
UB

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RE: War Plan Orange mod - question for you guys, the pl... - 8/3/2004 5:11:04 PM

Jorm

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HI UB

well you've hit on one of the major problems faced by WPO planners of the day . If they had colliers ( phasing out in the 30s for military ships to OIL fired atleast) they owuld need LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of coal and forward bases to supply it. If the philipines was lost, the PHASE I WPO :build up operation was all about staging for PHASE II - the buid up to bloackade japan
the WPO planners of he day knew that the phillipines would most probably not be able to hold out long enough to wait for the NAVY, so they would have to do exaclty what WITP requires us to do, island hop, or make it to the philipines in time, or devise interdicting strategies to slow the japanese conquest of the phillipines

lots of great "what if's " in there to the played/wargames

i imagine the WPO planners would have given allot for a tool like WITP to asist them at he time

< Message edited by Jorm -- 8/3/2004 3:14:31 PM >

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RE: War Plan Orange mod - question for you guys, the pl... - 8/3/2004 5:29:03 PM

Montbrun

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Let me suggest the following books on this subject:

Miller, Edward S., "War Plan Orange: The U.S. Strategy to Defeat Japan, 1897-1945"

and

Gole, Henry G., "The Road to Rainbow: Army Planning for Global War, 1934-1940"

(in reply to Tankerace)

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RE: War Plan Orange mod - question for you guys, the pl... - 8/3/2004 5:33:45 PM

UncleBuck

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Well I guess after further thought that it is not really an issue. You could substitute Oilier for Colliers. You would do the same thing they planners would have had to do. Christmas Island as a forward Oil station? Hmm Maybe. I just wonder if it is possible to re-fuel subs from task forces, as that was the plan for the fleet boats operating with the BB's.
UB

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RE: War Plan Orange mod - question for you guys, the pl... - 8/3/2004 7:40:25 PM

SirRodneyOfGout

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Just curious - what do you intend to do with the Brits, Dutch, French in this scenario? And what about objectives, victory conditions, etc? Motivation for a Japanese offensive would be very different in 1922, or even 36, than the drive for oil that spurred PH and the historical war in 41.

Another possible Plan Orange date could be late 37. Triggered by the Panay incident (US gunboat sunk by Japanese dive bombers in the Yangtze), it is even possible to hypothesize the US declaring war on Japan in this situation.

BTW, a great read is Combined Fleet Decoded, by John Prados, which looks at the war, and the lead up to it in the 20s and 30s, through the intel efforts of both sides.

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RE: War Plan Orange mod - question for you guys, the pl... - 8/3/2004 11:39:03 PM

diesel7013

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I believe that it was unlikly that a confrontation would have occured prior to the late 30's as Japan lacked the ability to exploit the DEI like they did during the early part of WWII...

Japan barely had enough shipping to bring back the raw materials and supplies as it was ( especially w/ US Subs later in the war ) - so starting in the 20's - other than an enjoyable excercise in how the ships of that era would operate - may not be that much fun... Also - as a strategic scenario - how fun would WITP be w/o carriers, long range aircraft, ect...

What I'm thinking about is localizing it to just the PI area and running some of the scenarios from Avalance Press' War Plan Orange - looking at the late 20's and early 30's and how surface combat would look... but beyond a local operational conflict ( like UV ) I don't think WITP works w/o the technology that was developed and put into use in the '40's...

Still - a local scenario based around PI would be fun...

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RE: War Plan Orange mod - question for you guys, the pl... - 8/4/2004 12:28:28 AM

Smiffus64

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If you make a mod, make it the early 30s. If only for the USS Macon and Arkon :)

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RE: War Plan Orange mod - question for you guys, the pl... - 8/4/2004 12:29:48 AM

Tankerace

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Well, not that I am trying to be rude, but my question was not "What time period do you want it set in." My mod will be set in the 1920's. If Jorm wants to make a similar themed mod set in the 1930s, more power to him. My question was do you want the option to convert certain classes of "never were" dreadnoughts into CVs. As far as balance issues, I have already worked several in. While the US will have the superiority in quantity, the Japanese will have fewer, newer ships. The majority of the US dreadnought fleet would naturally be in the Atlantic, leaving the rusty pre dreadnoughts from the old Great White Fleet to try and stop the Japanese onslaught in the mean time.

Since I haven't got a thorough answer, other than people would like more carriers, Akagi and Kaga, and Lexington and Saratoga will have the option to be converted into CVs.

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RE: War Plan Orange mod - question for you guys, the pl... - 8/4/2004 12:42:19 AM

Smiffus64

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I want these :)

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RE: War Plan Orange mod - question for you guys, the pl... - 8/4/2004 12:47:50 AM

AlvinS

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Tankerace

I will play this Mod. I have the game U.S. Navy Plan Orange by Avalance Press and I think it will make an excellent mod.

Thank you

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AlvinS

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RE: War Plan Orange mod - question for you guys, the pl... - 8/4/2004 1:55:09 AM

Tankerace

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Actually, that was kinda the game I was wanting to model the mod after ;)

Gotta love Avalanche Press.

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RE: War Plan Orange mod - question for you guys, the pl... - 8/4/2004 2:32:19 AM

AlvinS

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quote:

Actually, that was kinda the game I was wanting to model the mod after ;)

Gotta love Avalanche Press.

Count me in. I love the Avalance Press Games. I also have U.S. Navy Plan Black and SOPAC.

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"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." ---Mark Twain

Naval Warfare Simulations

AlvinS

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RE: War Plan Orange mod - question for you guys, the pl... - 8/4/2004 3:56:48 AM

Jorm

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yep

i certainly dont want to change/influence any thing TANKERACE has planned
Im just keen to flag opinions about such a 1933-36 mod in general, and see if any one will be fagged playing such a mod
Also keen to use this group to begin information gathering and exchange
i wil lcertainly be playing any 1920 mod made as well

cheers
Paul

< Message edited by Jorm -- 8/4/2004 3:31:39 AM >

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RE: War Plan Orange mod - question for you guys, the pl... - 8/4/2004 4:21:11 AM

waynec

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another place to start might be the SSG CD Carriers at War wargame which has a plan orange scenario. or you could ask someone who owns it to compile the information for you.
Rising Sun Victorious by peter tsouras has a plan orange scenario.

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< Message edited by waynec -- 8/3/2004 8:23:27 PM >

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RE: War Plan Orange mod - question for you guys, the pl... - 8/4/2004 5:17:07 AM

Jorm

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hi waynec

yep i have a working copy, thats what got me keen on the idea in the 1st place :-)

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RE: War Plan Orange mod - question for you guys, the pl... - 8/4/2004 5:18:49 AM

SunDevil_MatrixForum

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Sounds like these will be good scenarios, good luck.

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RE: War Plan Orange mod - question for you guys, the pl... - 8/5/2004 11:12:42 AM

Sneer

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I'm interested
If sb need help I'm in

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