RE: Aircraft Upgrades

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

RE: Aircraft Upgrades

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> RE: Aircraft Upgrades

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 4 5 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/3/2004 9:03:12 PM

UncleBuck

Posts: 633
Joined: 10/31/2003
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Status: offline

Correct Mr. Frag,

However when the Industrial boys produced 2000 geroges for teh Navy and had them in teh Aircraft Pool the Navy didn't keep flying A6M2's. When the Industrial boys made 2000 Franks they didn't keep using teh KI-43's either. If you produce it you should be able to use it. If XYZ squadron HISTORICLLY Only flew the Nate what sense does it make to have that unit flying Nates in Honshu in 1944 when there are Much better Aircraft available in the aircraft pool not being used? No one is asking to make the IJA/IJN problem go away they are asking to be able to move beyond the HISTORICAL limit on upgrades if they have teh planes available to replace them. No Magic re-supply you still woudl follow the upgrade rules but if you can get them to thier parent HQ and have enough supply you shoudl be able to upgrade the planes.
If you can't tehn the matter of streamlining the production is a waste since you are not allowed to do any better than the Japanese did historically. the way it is now, thereis no reason for the Allies to even try and stop Japanese advancement into SRA or to interdict the resources going home since they will NEVER do better than Historical. HTe only differnce woud be a slightly longer period before teh inevitable. With the curerent victory conditions, upgrading to better planes is a KEY to Japanese chances of forcing a peace on the Allies.
UB

_____________________________

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 31

RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/3/2004 9:05:12 PM

Oznoyng

Posts: 818
Joined: 4/16/2004
From: Mars
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
You are not seeing the big picture ... who said you can't produce it. It is your fault that you are producing the wrong thing, making stuff you don't need instead of stuff you do need. That is part of the overall headache of managing the balancing act.

I am not producing the wrong thing, I am not permitted to use the best things I can produce. The distinction is subtle, but important.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
If you simply pretend there is no IJA/IJN and play the game like that, they I completely understand you wanting to be able to simply make the one best aircraft and ignore production from then on, but that is not the reality of what Japan faced. They had 2 separate groups with totally separate demands making life hell for the industrial boys who were constantly caught serving two masters.

House rules can take care of what can be upgraded to what. I personally would not upgrade Oscar's to Reppu's, or land based zeros to Shindens. I would however upgrade Oscar's to Frank's (most). The problem is WitP doesn't give me that option. The upgrade button should give me a toggle between all the types available (and Do Not Upgrade), not simply the next one in the path and do not upgrade. House rules can handle the rest.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
Remove that and we are playing a RTS ... he who makes the most widgets faster wins.

Melodrama makes me ever so faintly nauseous. Changing this means WitP is an RTS? Please! Go blow that smoke somewhere else!

< Message edited by Oznoyng -- 8/3/2004 7:25:58 PM >

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 32

RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/3/2004 9:09:09 PM

GoofTrooper

Posts: 54
Joined: 7/22/2004
From: USA
Status: offline

There are at least 2 threads on the topic of aircraft upgrades and I thought I'd drop my 2 cents in. Many players are complaining that the game should allow more flexibility in A/C upgrade paths. I would be interested to see any evidence that would suggest some of this was even possible for IJN. The most important one and I think most would agree would be the A6m2 upgrading to the A6m5 instead of the A6m3. I think there are several issues at work and I will try to organize them. I would start by saying (and someone else already posted this elsewhere) that not all A6M variants are represented. Specifically the A6m3 Model 22. This version went back to the Airframe of the older A6m2 model 21 instead of the clipped wing short ranged version (A6m3 Model 32) represented in the game. I don't think changing the Generic A6m3 to the model 22 would help as this aircraft was used in large enough numbers to ignore. If the A6m3 was generic 22 that could unbalance the game, giving the Japs more "long range" zeros than they had for a specific campaign. The Solomon's is a good example. Many (sorry don't remember exact num.) of the A6m's at Rabaul were the Model 32's that couldn't make the flight to Guadalcanal. If the current M3 was model 22 then the this could unbalance the early part of the war as the IJN player wouldn't have to make the difficult decision that his historical counterpart did. Do I pull my longer ranged zeros from China (this was an issue that historically occurred) where they are needed to escort my Nells (Hist note: they had advanced deep enough into China, to need the Longer Range of the model 21 or 22) or do I divert them for the upcoming campaign in the Solomon's (anyone remember reading about Japan's victory disease and over extension). I think the easiest way to solve this would be to create two versions of the A6m3. Add the A6m3 Model 22 and keep the model 32 as separate. Allow the units that upgraded historically to the 22, to do so while those that were 32 would follow that path. After both would upgrade to m5.
Had more to say but gotta get back to work, the Boss is eyeing me menacingly............

(in reply to Oznoyng)

Post #: 33

RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/3/2004 9:09:32 PM

Spooky

Posts: 816
Joined: 4/1/2002
From: Froggy Land
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

You are not seeing the big picture ... who said you can't produce it. It is your fault that you are producing the wrong thing, making stuff you don't need instead of stuff you do need. That is part of the overall headache of managing the balancing act.

If you simply pretend there is no IJA/IJN and play the game like that, they I completely understand you wanting to be able to simply make the one best aircraft and ignore production from then on, but that is not the reality of what Japan faced. They had 2 separate groups with totally separate demands making life hell for the industrial boys who were constantly caught serving two masters.

Remove that and we are playing a RTS ... he who makes the most widgets faster wins.

I did not know that BTR was a RTS

. However, even with an open-ended upgrade model � la BTR, it is not difficult to only allow IJN squadrons to upgrade to IJN planes & IJA squadrons to IJA planes.

But as I said before, I should have read more carefully the features of the game. However, there are some promising wargames coming out in the next months ... I hope I will get less disappointed by their design decisions

_____________________________

Visit Spooky's UV & WITP Fansite !

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 34

RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/3/2004 9:16:30 PM

Rob Brennan UK

Posts: 3685
Joined: 8/24/2002
From: London UK
Status: offline

Surely the big picture is 'What if?' from dec 7th all bets are off, most encounters will be non-historical. IF japan manages to keep its industry alive and make lots of say Ki-44's why 'only' allow a few units to upgrade to that a/c ? ( i know this is a repeat and I'm not trying to be awkward). It's like having a rule that Japan MUST move her naval forces to Midway in mid 42 or pay a penalty of some sort because it's not a historical move ?

I think most of use want a deliniated IJN/IJA divide, I know I do. BUT its not easy (at all) to calculate how many a/c you need of a particular type or even how many tanks/guns you will need in the next month/year to fulfill historical reinforcements/replacements.

Its almost as if we have control over the production of japan but are penalised if we tinker with it .. Why have player controlled production in the first place?

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

If there was no production at all, it would also be non-historical.

The goal was to make the Japanese player wrestle with the tough choices faced and never have enough to do anything right. It does that well. You are always stuck choosing something at the expense of something else. That is the pain that needs to be felt to play Japan.

Agreed but production could be done as the USA/Allies just subject to bombing. Wrestling with the tough choices is what the game is all about in all aspects, but we still have to freedom to perform non-historical actions why not non historical production ? (ok we can change to non historical production but it's all a negative as I see it)

Thsi game will never ever be an RTS

.. can you imagine a 13 y/o red alert fan playing this game

P.S this is my first ever rantite .. (def. small rant) .. be gentle

Anyhow it's still a bloody good game

_____________________________

sorry for the spelling . English is my main language , I just can't type . and i'm too lazy to edit :)

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 35

RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/3/2004 10:03:40 PM

Black Cat

Posts: 615
Joined: 7/4/2002
Status: offline

Should the Allies get the same abilities that you guys want for the Japanese ?

The ability to research and produce the best available AC and introduce them through upgrades into the Air Groups when the player wants ?

If not, why not ?

(in reply to Rob Brennan UK)

Post #: 36

RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/3/2004 10:08:00 PM

freeboy

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline

Absolutely they should, the goal is to leave the historical pathways and see if we can help the poor guys.... remember the results of b 29 was more lost in the us into 44 than overseas... lots and lots of engine problems.. so maybe some randum you can try it but it may bot help varible with all the planes needing to be reserched to be upgraded to

(in reply to Black Cat)

Post #: 37

RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/3/2004 10:11:04 PM

GoofTrooper

Posts: 54
Joined: 7/22/2004
From: USA
Status: offline

Oznoyng,

What better Aircraft do you have in the pool that units can't upgrade too?

(in reply to Oznoyng)

Post #: 38

RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/3/2004 10:13:01 PM

Spooky

Posts: 816
Joined: 4/1/2002
From: Froggy Land
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Cat

Should the Allies get the same abilities that you guys want for the Japanese ?

The ability to research and produce the best available AC and introduce them through upgrades into the Air Groups when the player wants ?

If not, why not ?

Good question, I think the Allies should have the ability to upgrade at will but with some limits :
- Same kind of planes (fighters -> fighters ... but not fighters -> bombers)
- USN planes for USN squadrons, USAAF planes for USAAF squadrons, ...
- Restrict the Commonwealth + Dutch airforces to the planes historically available to these nations

For plane production, the Pacific theater was not prioritary for the Allied High Command compared with the European theater ... so we can assume that the Allied R&D and production should stay historical (the only exception should be Australia & NZ ... if it is possible)

_____________________________

Visit Spooky's UV & WITP Fansite !

(in reply to Black Cat)

Post #: 39

RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/3/2004 10:18:06 PM

UncleBuck

Posts: 633
Joined: 10/31/2003
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Status: offline

I am ok with those restrictions Spooky if you place teh same ones on Japan. These two are teh ones I mean - Same kind of planes (fighters -> fighters ... but not fighters -> bombers)
- IJN planes for IJN squadrons, IJA planes for IJA squadrons, ...

The only issue I have is that how do you allow the US to increase production to allow the upgrades? As it is now it would be hard pressed to increase upgrades with the current plane figures later in the war. But just the option would be nice.

_____________________________

(in reply to Spooky)

Post #: 40

RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/3/2004 10:26:16 PM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline

quote:

- IJN planes for IJN squadrons, IJA planes for IJA squadrons, ...

Sorry guys, but I must be missing something here.

IJN planes upgrade to IJN planes (apart from the A6M2 -> 3)

IJA planes upgrade to IJA planes (apart from roughly 30 special unique aircraft)

What exactly is the problem? You want to completely cross lines?

Heavy bombers have heavy bomber paths

Dive bombers have dive bomber paths

Torpedo bombers have torpedo bomber paths

Transports are a tad bit of a mess, but they really were, with whatever aircraft there was being tossed to transport duties.

Fighters follow either the fighter-bomber or the pure fighter path depending on their type.

Please highlight the problem, I'm not arguing just to be difficult here, I just don't see what you are complaining about being broken.

(in reply to UncleBuck)

Post #: 41

RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/3/2004 10:42:19 PM

tsimmonds

Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline

Mr. Frag, I believe that the main beef is that Nates only upgrade to Oscar IIs. This fills up the vast majority of IJA squadrons with obsolete a/c at a time when Franks are available and sorely needed.

_____________________________

Fear the kitten!

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 42

RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/3/2004 10:52:14 PM

Xargun

Posts: 3690
Joined: 2/14/2004
From: Near Columbus, Ohio
Status: offline

I would love to be able to upgrade to whatever model is available and even downgrade if I wanted to. There should be some restrictions to represent the IJN and IJA problems so IJA fighters can convert to ANY OTHER IJA fighter at any time - provided you have enough in the pool.. Same with IJN planes - change to any other plane of the same type provided enough in the pool..

This would give us more flexibility and make changing production of aircraft more important.

Xargun

(in reply to tsimmonds)

Post #: 43

RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/3/2004 10:53:19 PM

Oznoyng

Posts: 818
Joined: 4/16/2004
From: Mars
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Cat

Should the Allies get the same abilities that you guys want for the Japanese ?

The ability to research and produce the best available AC and introduce them through upgrades into the Air Groups when the player wants ?

If not, why not ?

I'm not even sure whether Japan should get the opportunity to research aircraft or not. From reading a book on the development of the Zero, it is clear to me that some aircraft could have been developed and deployed before they were. However, the costs of doing so in game are not sufficiently onerous to Japan. Researching the Reppu, for instance, should cost you in terms of your ability to get the A6M5. I am also dubious about the ability to know, in exquisite detail, the combat values of the planes involved. There is no fog of war when it comes to the performance of various aircraft. You know before you begin what you will get. All that combines to make me believe that researching planes is probably not a great design option.

I am also reluctant to simply convert production from one aircraft to another in the upgrade chain in one day. Converting from and A6M2 to A6M3 would be relatively simple and would not impact production greatly. A small hit in production (represented by damage of 10 percent) might be appropriate. When converting to the Reppu or from say the Nate to the Oscar, there should be a longer ramp up time.

Finally, I am also cognizant of the attitudes of the pilots themselves with respect to the planes. If you read the thread recently about the Claude that quoted Saburo Sakae (?), you will find that the pilots themselves resisted the change from the Claude to the Zero. I support a requirement for spending PP to change the aircraft that a squadron flies. The more experienced the pilots in the group, the more it should cost.

With respect to the US, I haven't really thought about it. I suspect that adding the abilities to the US would not have as significant of an impact as it does with the Japanese.

(in reply to Black Cat)

Post #: 44

RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/3/2004 11:01:13 PM

Sultanofsham

Posts: 728
Joined: 4/20/2002
Status: offline

We have a switch on the menu that allows for ahistoric use or tactics of subs (for both sides now) so why not slap a couple more buttons on there to allow players from both sides to be able to select what plane a squadron will use. Put a PP cost on it so you cant go hog wild without paying a price somewhere else and make it so you have to stay within the same class of aircraft (fighter-fighter, heavy bomber-heavy bomber).

That way if someone wants to be able to do it they can and if someone doesnt they dont have to. Just like with the subs.

_____________________________

Sci-fi channel SUCKS.

One of the true tests of leadership is the ability to recognize a problem before it becomes an emergency.
-- Arnold H. Glasow

(in reply to tsimmonds)

Post #: 45

RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/3/2004 11:02:42 PM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

Hi Zoomie
but I think you miss part of the point, a lot of players, don't want to edit there games or OOB's even if it makes the OOB better or more correct, they want to play the game as it was made by the designer

in BTR (with the editor that was made later) I can start a 43 campaign and give the GE all TA-152's and DO-335's, but if I did, I wouldn't play that game
(LOL, I did test it, with 1000 of each added at the beginning, it was fun for a test :))

but as I was saying, for me, it would be nice if I could change my Chinese squadrons to Demons or P-40 E's when the stock pile of them is large enough, I will not edit the game to do so, if the designers give me the option, then I will, if not, I will wait for some P-40 N's to build up

HARD_Sarge

That's not the point at all. If I want an historical game, I play the scenarios that came with the original game and the upgrade paths and everything set as it was historically. However, since they gave me an editor, the gave the license to be creatative and play a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GAME!. I could care less if YOU, or anyone else, would ever want to play MY scenario. I develop that scenario for MY OWN PRIVATE CONSUMPTION and noone else! I should be able to do as I please so long as the AI and game engine don't break! Why should ANYONE else care in the least? If I want to develop a scenario that allows me to eventually place a Japanese unit in the United States base, SO WHAT??? I might find it fun. What you might find it, is irrelevant, in that context.

(in reply to Hard Sarge)

Post #: 46

RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/3/2004 11:08:11 PM

Oznoyng

Posts: 818
Joined: 4/16/2004
From: Mars
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoofTrooper

Oznoyng,

What better Aircraft do you have in the pool that units can't upgrade too?

The most glaring example that comes to mind is the Oscar. Upgrading some of them to any of the Tony, Tojo or Jack would be an improvement. The Ki-36 Ida is a piece of trash I would love to be able to upgrade to a Babs or Dinah. I would consider converting Ki-49's to Ki-21's to streamline production and wait for the Ki-67. I would like to replace the F1M2 Petes with longer ranged E13A1 Jakes or E7K2 Alfs. I would stop Ki-54 production and revert to the K-59. The Ki-100 Tony might eventually be upgraded to something else like a Frank or Shinden. I haven't thought in great detail, but off the top of my head, those are some of the things I would consider.

Edited to fix options for Oscar upgrade to be historical IJA -> IJA.

< Message edited by Oznoyng -- 8/3/2004 9:23:47 PM >

(in reply to GoofTrooper)

Post #: 47

RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/3/2004 11:16:04 PM

Reiryc

Posts: 4991
Joined: 1/5/2001
Status: offline

quote:

The most glaring example that comes to mind is the Oscar. Upgrading some of them to any of the Tony, Tojo, Jack, George or Frank would be an improvement.

Well I don't think any IJA plane should be able to upgrade to any IJN plane of the same class.

Thus the oscar should be limited to upgrading to the tony/frank etc. While the zero should be limited to the jack/george etc

_____________________________

(in reply to Oznoyng)

Post #: 48

RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/3/2004 11:18:14 PM

Oznoyng

Posts: 818
Joined: 4/16/2004
From: Mars
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reiryc

quote:

The most glaring example that comes to mind is the Oscar. Upgrading some of them to any of the Tony, Tojo, Jack, George or Frank would be an improvement.

Well I don't think any IJA plane should be able to upgrade to any IJN plane of the same class.

Thus the oscar should be limited to upgrading to the tony/frank etc. While the zero should be limited to the jack/george etc

Yep, I agree. I was looking at a list that did not distinguish between IJN and IJA fighters. My bad.

Just looked it up, I would consider the Tony (both types), the Tojo, and the Frank as possible upgrades. Not the Jack or George.

< Message edited by Oznoyng -- 8/3/2004 9:21:51 PM >

(in reply to Reiryc)

Post #: 49

RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/3/2004 11:25:23 PM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

Sorry guys, but I must be missing something here.
IJN planes upgrade to IJN planes (apart from the A6M2 -> 3)
IJA planes upgrade to IJA planes (apart from roughly 30 special unique aircraft)
What exactly is the problem? You want to completely cross lines?

In short, in a user defined scenario....yes. Absolutely. So long as fighter/fighter bombers change to fighter/fighter bomber types, what's the big deal? It is a FANTASY GAME! Why should ANYONE care? In the REAL world, aircrews cross train ALL THE TIME. F-15 pilots become F-16 pilots, A-7 pilots became either F-14 or F-18 pilots. hell in the REAL Air Force B-52 pilots leave active bomber units and fly F-16s in the Guard, and F-15 fly Tankers in the Guard, and they all eventually become airline pilots!!! This notion that Ki-XX's units can only ugrade to only other Ki-XX units has no basis in reality other than that is how the Japanese HISTORICALLY did things. We allow turning off of historic Jap sub doctrine, and give folks an editor to create uber-weapons and give Japan 99,999 points of everything. So what's the big deal with the concept of user-defined upgrade paths for airplanes? Beyond underlying software design limitations...

quote:

Please highlight the problem, I'm not arguing just to be difficult here, I just don't see what you are complaining about being broken.

If I want a Ki-27 squadron to fly A6M2's I should be able to. Both are fighters. If I want A6M2's to upgrade to A6M3's rather than A6M5's I should be able to. If I want to go directly from Ki-44 to A7M's and I have A7M's in my pool, I should be able to equip THAT squadron with A7M's. These are user designed FANTASIES and that's where everyone is asking to have maximum flexibility, not in the shipping game with the Matrix defined scenarios.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 50

RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/3/2004 11:27:19 PM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reiryc

quote:

The most glaring example that comes to mind is the Oscar. Upgrading some of them to any of the Tony, Tojo, Jack, George or Frank would be an improvement.

Well I don't think any IJA plane should be able to upgrade to any IJN plane of the same class.

Thus the oscar should be limited to upgrading to the tony/frank etc. While the zero should be limited to the jack/george etc

In the vendor supplied game and scenarios....absolutely. By in my own fantasy, created via the editor, why should you even care?

(in reply to Reiryc)

Post #: 51

RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/3/2004 11:29:48 PM

Reiryc

Posts: 4991
Joined: 1/5/2001
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reiryc

quote:

The most glaring example that comes to mind is the Oscar. Upgrading some of them to any of the Tony, Tojo, Jack, George or Frank would be an improvement.

Well I don't think any IJA plane should be able to upgrade to any IJN plane of the same class.

Thus the oscar should be limited to upgrading to the tony/frank etc. While the zero should be limited to the jack/george etc

In the vendor supplied game and scenarios....absolutely. By in my own fantasy, created via the editor, why should you even care?

I don't care.... I'm not even commenting on you or your fantasy scenarios.

If you'll take the time to notice, I quoted onzyog and responded to him.

_____________________________

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 52

RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/3/2004 11:31:35 PM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reiryc

quote:

The most glaring example that comes to mind is the Oscar. Upgrading some of them to any of the Tony, Tojo, Jack, George or Frank would be an improvement.

Well I don't think any IJA plane should be able to upgrade to any IJN plane of the same class.

Thus the oscar should be limited to upgrading to the tony/frank etc. While the zero should be limited to the jack/george etc

Yep, I agree. I was looking at a list that did not distinguish between IJN and IJA fighters. My bad.

Just looked it up, I would consider the Tony (both types), the Tojo, and the Frank as possible upgrades. Not the Jack or George.

I don't even agree with that. Even in the vendor game and scenarios, the Imperial Guards could deploy to China while the 25th Army HQ to Truk! Historically the IG's were in the 25th Army and stayed there. We seem to have no conceptual problem with LCU's being deployed all over creation in places their commanders never would have placed them, but seem to be hung up on where aircraft models end up? What' the difference, other than hard-coded design limitations??

(in reply to Oznoyng)

Post #: 53

RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/3/2004 11:42:49 PM

Bodhi

Posts: 1267
Joined: 8/26/2003
From: Japan
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
What' the difference, other than hard-coded design limitations??

Maybe one possible answer as to why it's not available?

_____________________________

Bodhi

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 54

RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/3/2004 11:43:10 PM

GoofTrooper

Posts: 54
Joined: 7/22/2004
From: USA
Status: offline

I can't speak for the other aircraft, but I know there were major teething problems with the Ki-84. I think part of the problem is that witp is based on UV which was Operational level whereas Witp is both operational and strategic. I would be leery of allowing player the ability to change upgrade paths as the realities of this are outside the scope of the game. Japan's pilot replacement program was terrible. I know the game models this, but does it model the difficulty of training pilots in new aircraft? Going from an A6m2 to m5 I can see being easy, but what about an Oscar to a Frank? Unless the Allied player is totally incompetent, by the time some of these show up in significant numbers, there should already be a shortage of "trained" pilots. Japan had been suffering a steady loss of irreplaceable pilots during the Solomon's. In fact IIRC this was one of the reasons they didn't replace the Zero by mid war, when it was already outclasses, to many losses and not enough Ind&resources to replace existing aircraft AND Develop new aircraft. Since the game doesn't model production quality (the risk of losing exp. pilots to crashes planes not starting etc) or many other difficulties that historically limited Japans ability to introduce new aircraft, I can't see allowing any player choice. I think witp is more "grand operations" then strategy.

(in reply to UncleBuck)

Post #: 55

RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/3/2004 11:43:42 PM

Oznoyng

Posts: 818
Joined: 4/16/2004
From: Mars
Status: offline

From all I can see, the lines drawn between the IJA and IJN would have required enormous political costs being paid for one to equip the other's airdraft, even unto the death of the empire. If this was allowed, it would need to cost an enormous number of PP to accomplish.

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 56

RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/3/2004 11:47:50 PM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reiryc

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reiryc

quote:

The most glaring example that comes to mind is the Oscar. Upgrading some of them to any of the Tony, Tojo, Jack, George or Frank would be an improvement.

Well I don't think any IJA plane should be able to upgrade to any IJN plane of the same class.

Thus the oscar should be limited to upgrading to the tony/frank etc. While the zero should be limited to the jack/george etc

In the vendor supplied game and scenarios....absolutely. By in my own fantasy, created via the editor, why should you even care?

I don't care.... I'm not even commenting on you or your fantasy scenarios.

If you'll take the time to notice, I quoted onzyog and responded to him.

This entire thread concerns, mainly, user defined scenarios and does really apply to the shipping versions. The shipping versions are clearly designed to be historical simulations and should be played as such, with all the restrictions in place to pretty much force a historical approach to the game.

But once the editor is invoked anything allowed by the underlieing software design should be allowed to happen. Any time I hear even remarks such as IJA should get IJA upgrades only. To that, again, I ask why? This is an editted thing we are talking here. In my world IJA and IJN leaders sit in a room and sing Kumbaya to each other in Japanese all day long.... What you say is appropriate for the historical scenarios and any game being played where the intent is adhering to history. But it really does not apply, conceptually, to a fantasy game. Which is what any game created using the editor is.

(in reply to Reiryc)

Post #: 57

RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/3/2004 11:50:59 PM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

From all I can see, the lines drawn between the IJA and IJN would have required enormous political costs being paid for one to equip the other's airdraft, even unto the death of the empire. If this was allowed, it would need to cost an enormous number of PP to accomplish.

In my editted fantasy IJN and IJA leaders take warm showers in the morning with each other....

Remember, I think we are all talking about user editted scenarios where we get user defined upgrade paths....at least I thought that's what this was all about

(in reply to Oznoyng)

Post #: 58

RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/3/2004 11:52:19 PM

Oznoyng

Posts: 818
Joined: 4/16/2004
From: Mars
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoofTrooper

I can't speak for the other aircraft, but I know there were major teething problems with the Ki-84. I think part of the problem is that witp is based on UV which was Operational level whereas Witp is both operational and strategic. I would be leery of allowing player the ability to change upgrade paths as the realities of this are outside the scope of the game. Japan's pilot replacement program was terrible. I know the game models this, but does it model the difficulty of training pilots in new aircraft? Going from an A6m2 to m5 I can see being easy, but what about an Oscar to a Frank? Unless the Allied player is totally incompetent, by the time some of these show up in significant numbers, there should already be a shortage of "trained" pilots. Japan had been suffering a steady loss of irreplaceable pilots during the Solomon's. In fact IIRC this was one of the reasons they didn't replace the Zero by mid war, when it was already outclasses, to many losses and not enough Ind&resources to replace existing aircraft AND Develop new aircraft. Since the game doesn't model production quality (the risk of losing exp. pilots to crashes planes not starting etc) or many other difficulties that historically limited Japans ability to introduce new aircraft, I can't see allowing any player choice. I think witp is more "grand operations" then strategy.

The availability date on the Frank should already reflect this, as should the production system. Japan has problems in the historical situation that might not exist or not exist to the degree they did historically depending upon game events. Japan developed new aircraft - they had trouble producing new aircraft *especially* as losses mounted while trying to transport oil and resources from the SRA. If game events alloe Japan to transport more supply to the home islands for a longer period than occurred historically and keep LBA away from Japanese industry for longer than they did historically, they can produce more aircraft of advanced types and should be able to train more, better pilots.

(in reply to GoofTrooper)

Post #: 59

RE: Aircraft Upgrades - 8/3/2004 11:54:57 PM

Oznoyng

Posts: 818
Joined: 4/16/2004
From: Mars
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
This entire thread concerns, mainly, user defined scenarios and does really apply to the shipping versions. The shipping versions are clearly designed to be historical simulations and should be played as such, with all the restrictions in place to pretty much force a historical approach to the game.

But once the editor is invoked anything allowed by the underlieing software design should be allowed to happen. Any time I hear even remarks such as IJA should get IJA upgrades only. To that, again, I ask why? This is an editted thing we are talking here. In my world IJA and IJN leaders sit in a room and sing Kumbaya to each other in Japanese all day long.... What you say is appropriate for the historical scenarios and any game being played where the intent is adhering to history. But it really does not apply, conceptually, to a fantasy game. Which is what any game created using the editor is.

Not in my mind it doesn't. A few extra months delay in the destruction of key engine manufacturing plants and aircraft factories should mean significantly more Franks in the skies over Japan, period.

Oh... and sufficient supplies of Oil to power the industries making them...

< Message edited by Oznoyng -- 8/3/2004 9:56:02 PM >

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 60