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Blair Mountain scenario? - 8/5/2004 2:59:01 AM   
Fidel_Helms

 

Posts: 405
Joined: 3/9/2003
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		Does anyone know of an SPWAW scenario covering the Battle of Blair Mountain? I was thinking about making one myself. I checked the scenario archives at the Wargamer and didn't see one, but I was surprised to see that they only had a couple of hundred scenarios in their archive, considering how long SPWAW has been out. Is there another, larger archive out there?

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RE: Blair Mountain scenario? - 8/5/2004 6:32:52 AM   
Major Destruction


Posts: 881
Joined: 8/10/2000
From: Canada
Status: offline 		go for it!

Try your hand at scenario design. It is fun and rewarding but don't expect it to be a simple task.

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They struggled with a ferocity that was to be expected of brave men fighting with forlorn hope against an enemy who had the advantage of position......knowing that courage was the one thing that would save them.

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RE: Blair Mountain scenario? - 8/5/2004 3:42:14 PM   
Fidel_Helms

 

Posts: 405
Joined: 3/9/2003
From: North Carolina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Major Destruction

go for it!

Try your hand at scenario design. It is fun and rewarding but don't expect it to be a simple task.


Five words:

I've designed a TOAW scenario.

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RE: Blair Mountain scenario? - 8/5/2004 7:31:39 PM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		Fidel, if you're talking about the August 1921 battle in West Virginia, the largest fought in America since the Civil War, then I'm looking forward to it. I assume you have all the necessary research materials, but here's a site with a map and description of the events: http://www.mywvmountain.com/path1/historic/blairmt.html

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RE: Blair Mountain scenario? - 8/6/2004 2:25:04 AM   
Fidel_Helms

 

Posts: 405
Joined: 3/9/2003
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		That's it, KG. There's a new book about the battle by Robert Shogan, which I have, and I also bought a book called The Goldenseal Book of the West Virginia Mine Wars that has a lot of good information. Really interesting stuff, actually.

One thing: apparently the miners formed themselves into units by their union local. I can't seem to find a listing of the union local numbers, though. The United Mine Workers of America has a web site, but it was no help. Any ideas as to where I could get this information?

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RE: Blair Mountain scenario? - 8/6/2004 2:52:38 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		That's great, Fidel. You're not a transplanted West Virginian, are you? I assume you're much better versed in the history of this war than I am, even though these events took place within a hundred miles or so of where I live.

Considering the bitterness surrounding the Matewan Massacre and the Mine War, finding precise information could be difficult. The WV Division of Culture & History is located in downtown Charleston, not far from where I work. Let me do some recon and I'll get back to you. If you want, send me your e-mail addy. Mine is gehiggin@hotmail.com.

To those not familiar with this history of this, please refer to the website I listed in a previous post. It provides a brief overview. It was indeed an outright rebellion, and Federal troops were called in to quash it. The consequences of this rebellion are still felt in my home state.

The coal miners, organized as a quasi-militia, wore red scarves around their necks. The movie "Matewan" depicts the early struggles to unionize, with the implication that some of the union organizers had Communist sympathies. The Federal troops opposing them called them "rednecks", and this is how that derogatory term eventually made it into the American lexicon.

Addendum: a mass of material is available at the WV Culture & History Archives--the list can be found here--- http://www.wvculture.org/history/notewv/blairmountain.html

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 8/5/2004 8:17:43 PM >

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RE: Blair Mountain scenario? - 8/6/2004 4:18:15 AM   
M4Jess


Posts: 5140
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: DC
Status: offline 		WOW! I will be watching this one!



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RE: Blair Mountain scenario? - 8/6/2004 5:28:25 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		Jess, this one will be tough to convert to SPWaW. It happened in 1921, so the Feds will have 1903 Rifles, Shotguns and maybe some M1917A1 HMGs or M1919A4 MMGs.

The miners? These guys would simply have some hunting rifles, shotguns, pistols and God knows what else.

This one will be tough to simulate, as the miners had numbers, and not much else. If the Feds used MGs, it would be simply a matter of acquiring firing positions. Looking at the available maps, though, this was a close-quarters struggle in very hilly terrain. There are few mountains in WV, but many hills, and the terrain in some areas is extemely rugged, all heavily wooded with narrow draws and many opportunities for ambushes.

With proper organization, the miners could've made this a protracted fight, but the ultimate outcome was a foregone conclusion. Having studied the later USMC manual on Small Wars, this uprising would have definitely fallen in the generalized category of a "domestic disturbance", even though it involved over 5000 disaffected and armed American citizens.

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 8/5/2004 10:42:32 PM >

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RE: Blair Mountain scenario? - 8/6/2004 6:08:29 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		Fidel, you are touching something that evokes strong emotions amongst West Virginians. We broke from Virginia to join the Union in 1863, but when the coal miners tried to organize, the Union took the side of the coal companies. This has left a bitter legacy. I wasn't born here, but I was raised here. I both love this state and its citizens but I despise the circumstances that leave us out of the loop for the nation's general prosperity. IMHO, these are all backlashes for that seminal moment in 1921. The coal companies won, and even though the unions were finally established, they always remained in the pocket of the coal bosses. I work for the WV State Tax Dept, and I still see the damage from corrupt politicians and big-business lobbying that keeps us from moving forward.

Now, in any other forum, the mods would come down and lock this thread. However, since this involves my home state and I'm the one who is continuing it, I will invoke my privilege to welcome all comments. The subject is a proposed SPWaW scenario. As a West Virginian, I've stated my view, so please pardon my prejudices. Let's move on...

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RE: Blair Mountain scenario? - 8/6/2004 8:28:30 AM   
stevemk1a


Posts: 855
Joined: 3/30/2002
From: Penticton B.C.
Status: offline 		I must admit I'd never heard of this event before. When the thread first appeared, I did a quick search and it's a fascinating episode. Heck, even biplanes dropping bombs were involved!

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RE: Blair Mountain scenario? - 8/6/2004 2:41:13 PM   
M4Jess


Posts: 5140
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: DC
Status: offline 		true KG,

BUT it can be done!



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Post #: 11
RE: Blair Mountain scenario? - 8/6/2004 2:44:11 PM   
M4Jess


Posts: 5140
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: DC
Status: offline 		KG, do you have any links for a good map of the area??

Jess

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Post #: 12
RE: Blair Mountain scenario? - 8/6/2004 3:36:08 PM   
Fidel_Helms

 

Posts: 405
Joined: 3/9/2003
From: North Carolina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

That's great, Fidel. You're not a transplanted West Virginian, are you?


No, I'm from an old farming family in eastern North Carolina. A flatlander through and through.

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Post #: 13
RE: Blair Mountain scenario? - 8/6/2004 3:44:30 PM   
Fidel_Helms

 

Posts: 405
Joined: 3/9/2003
From: North Carolina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Jess, this one will be tough to convert to SPWaW. It happened in 1921, so the Feds will have 1903 Rifles, Shotguns and maybe some M1917A1 HMGs or M1919A4 MMGs.

The miners? These guys would simply have some hunting rifles, shotguns, pistols and God knows what else.



A couple of points here. First of all, the miners never fought "the Feds" from what I've read. In fact, the UMWA expressly stated that it would not molest Federal troops. The forces that the miners engaged in combat with were ad hoc forces largely assembled by the sheriff of Logan County, Don Chafin. These included West Virginia State Police, ad hoc militia, WWI vets organized by the American Legion, Baldwin-Felts mine guards, and even a high school ROTC cadre.

The miners were surprisingly well armed, due in part to the fact that they were able to capture and/or steal stocks of weapons from the coal companies. The accounts that I've read make several mentions of the miners employing machine guns. In at least one instance they used light direct fire artillery.

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Post #: 14
RE: Blair Mountain scenario? - 8/12/2004 3:56:22 AM   
Fidel_Helms

 

Posts: 405
Joined: 3/9/2003
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		I'm about half done with the map. Right now I'm looking at having the scenario cover an specific action that took place along a stream called Craddock Fork. I know that the miners had a Gatling gun, but I don't see it in the weapons list. What should I use? Likewise, I don't see shotguns in the list, and I want those. Finally, I want to give the miners something which replicates the explosives that they were able to steal from the coal companies. Is there any difference between a satchel charge and a demolition kit?

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RE: Blair Mountain scenario? - 8/12/2004 7:20:53 PM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		Fidel, the shotgun is in the USMC weapons list (216). The Demolitions Kit has a smaller warhead and HE kill than the Satchel Charge, so I think you shoud use it. As for the Gatling, we'll have to look around a bit. Maybe Major Destruction has some suggestions. Send him a PM.

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RE: Blair Mountain scenario? - 8/12/2004 7:58:10 PM   
Fidel_Helms

 

Posts: 405
Joined: 3/9/2003
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		That means I'd have to choose the USMC as the force for the UMWA, right?

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Post #: 17
RE: Blair Mountain scenario? - 8/12/2004 8:18:13 PM   
M4Jess


Posts: 5140
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: DC
Status: offline 		No, edit the unit and change the nation to USMC, edit the unit, and change it back.

Jess

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Post #: 18
RE: Blair Mountain scenario? - 8/13/2004 8:25:29 AM   
Fidel_Helms

 

Posts: 405
Joined: 3/9/2003
From: North Carolina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: M4Jess

No, edit the unit and change the nation to USMC, edit the unit, and change it back.

Jess


Okay, I'm stumped. I don't see a way to just change the nation. I tried changing a German rifle squad to a USMC rifle squad as a test, but it still pulled up the German weapons list when I went in to edit the weapons.

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Post #: 19
RE: Blair Mountain scenario? - 8/13/2004 1:41:51 PM   
M4Jess


Posts: 5140
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: DC
Status: offline 		1. Buy your unit nation of choice.

2. Deploy the unit

3. Go back to main screen and change the nation

4. edit unit

hope this helps

Jess

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Post #: 20
RE: Blair Mountain scenario? - 8/14/2004 3:40:54 AM   
Fidel_Helms

 

Posts: 405
Joined: 3/9/2003
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		Thanks, Jess. That works. Is there any way to change the displayed name of a weapon without modding the OOBs? I was thinking of changing one of the rifles to ".30 Winchester" for the miners and changing a .30 cal HMG to "Gatling Gun".

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Post #: 21
RE: Blair Mountain scenario? - 8/14/2004 4:32:22 AM   
M4Jess


Posts: 5140
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fidel_Helms

Thanks, Jess. That works. Is there any way to change the displayed name of a weapon without modding the OOBs? I was thinking of changing one of the rifles to ".30 Winchester" for the miners and changing a .30 cal HMG to "Gatling Gun".


YOUR WELCOME,

Sorry to say it but...nope I wish............

Jess

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RE: Blair Mountain scenario? - 8/14/2004 4:33:56 AM   
M4Jess


Posts: 5140
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: DC
Status: offline 		BTW,

I will playtest this for you if ya like

Jess

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Post #: 23
RE: Blair Mountain scenario? - 8/14/2004 4:45:24 AM   
Fidel_Helms

 

Posts: 405
Joined: 3/9/2003
From: North Carolina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: M4Jess

BTW,

I will playtest this for you if ya like

Jess


Thanks, I'll take you up on that when it's ready. I've designed a TOAW scenario before, but I've only done a bit of piddling with the SPWAW editor. Right now my design time is a little sporadic, but I've made surprisingly fast progress on the map, since it's a fairly simple one, just a few creeks and lots of hills with high grass and forest. Hopefully it'll be tactically interesting. The miners were well armed, but not nearly as well as Chafin's defenders. What I had in mind was UMWA(United Mine Workers of America) squads that are low on ammo and will need to close with the defenders in order to make use of their explosives, shotguns, and small arms to oust the deputies and mine guards from Blair Mountain.

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RE: Blair Mountain scenario? - 8/14/2004 10:52:34 AM   
Fidel_Helms

 

Posts: 405
Joined: 3/9/2003
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		Hope I'm not being a pain, Jess, but I'm back for more advice on the editor. It's so much easier to ask someone who's knowledgeable rather than hunt through the manual.

I more or less finished the first draft of the map tonight and have started customizing my squads. Is there a way to change the squad weapons of a whole formation, or do you have to do it squad by squad?

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RE: Blair Mountain scenario? - 8/14/2004 2:05:57 PM   
M4Jess


Posts: 5140
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: DC
Status: offline 		no prob...

the only way to change all the units at once is in the OOB editor. I suggest that you do not take that road for this project. While it is easy to do, players will need your modified OOB to play your scenario, and most players do not want to replace their OOBs for custom OOBs. However it is easy for players to copy and save the original OOBs to a temp folder. I modified OOBs for my War of the Ring series, if you would like a look go here... http://spwaw.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2310

Jess

< Message edited by M4Jess -- 8/14/2004 7:08:35 AM >

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RE: Blair Mountain scenario? - 8/14/2004 9:50:43 PM   
Fidel_Helms

 

Posts: 405
Joined: 3/9/2003
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		Now I'm trying, unsucessfully I might add, to add an airstrike to the anti-union forces OOB. I've selected US Army as the nation, weather level is set to 1(best), time is 8am so it isn't dark. I did notice that in the bottom left hand side of the screen, it shows zero air sections available. I tried changing this on the preferences screen, but it stills shows zero. I even tried turning off the rarity toggle and that doesn't work either.

< Message edited by Fidel_Helms -- 8/14/2004 2:50:56 PM >

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RE: Blair Mountain scenario? - 8/14/2004 11:46:52 PM   
M4Jess


Posts: 5140
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: DC
Status: offline 		hmmmmm send the scen to me and Ill take a look if you like...

Ill PM you my E-mail address

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Post #: 28
RE: Blair Mountain scenario? - 8/15/2004 1:49:48 AM   
Gallo Rojo


Posts: 731
Joined: 10/26/2000
From: Argentina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fidel_Helms

Finally, I want to give the miners something which replicates the explosives that they were able to steal from the coal companies. Is there any difference between a satchel charge and a demolition kit?


check in the Spanish Republican OOB. They have a unit called "Dinamiteros" ... so you can figure out which kind of explosive they have

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RE: Blair Mountain scenario? - 8/15/2004 1:57:52 AM   
Gallo Rojo


Posts: 731
Joined: 10/26/2000
From: Argentina
Status: offline 		So... were those Miners unionized compañeros fighting against the exploiters and its police servants?
If that is the case I'll build some molotov cocktails inmediatelly!
A las barricadas!! No pasarán!!

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