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Super Fighters - 8/11/2004 6:45:16 AM   
pendrich

 

Posts: 12
Joined: 8/10/2004
Status: offline 		Mild bug.

My Hellcats fought 6 Tojos and 9 Peggys defending a TF

Somehow we managed to kill 15 Tojos and 13 Peggys.

Now given that there was no attack on an airfield and no ships were destroyed. I noticed this one other time and it certainly isn't a huge deal, just odd.

Thanks for the check-up on this.

Pendulous Richard,
If Hallsy says it, its no Bull
Post #: 1
RE: Super Fighters - 8/11/2004 6:50:42 AM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		It is called Fog of War. You will see lots of it. I have engaged 12 Buffalos and shot down 30+.

(in reply to pendrich)
Post #: 2
RE: Super Fighters - 8/11/2004 7:18:48 AM   
pendrich

 

Posts: 12
Joined: 8/10/2004
Status: offline 		ahh, thanks.

(in reply to 2ndACR)
Post #: 3
RE: Super Fighters - 8/11/2004 11:42:59 AM   
DoomedMantis


Posts: 1922
Joined: 8/24/2002
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		the difference is between claimed kills and actual kills.

With a game started and continued in the same game version this is less apparant

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(in reply to pendrich)
Post #: 4
RE: Super Fighters - 8/11/2004 8:14:11 PM   
gdpsnake

 

Posts: 786
Joined: 8/7/2000
From: Kempner, TX
Status: offline 		I understand the fog of war but really, how many times I've seen 30-50 kills claimed when less than 15-20 A/C were actual is WAY OUT of proportion. That's just too much bad reporting......

(in reply to DoomedMantis)
Post #: 5
RE: Super Fighters - 8/11/2004 11:02:35 PM   
mongo


Posts: 260
Joined: 6/30/2004
From: Ohio, USA
Status: offline 		Fighter pilots always inflate numbers...

everything is bigger to them than in reality

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Post #: 6
RE: Super Fighters - 8/11/2004 11:06:26 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

I understand the fog of war but really, how many times I've seen 30-50 kills claimed when less than 15-20 A/C were actual is WAY OUT of proportion. That's just too much bad reporting......


You obviously never saw the German kills reported during the Battle of Britain.

They shot down every aircraft Britain had so many times based on reports that it was getting comical to even read the numbers.

The same goes for the AVG boys ... they shot down more aircraft then Japan had

(in reply to gdpsnake)
Post #: 7
RE: Super Fighters - 8/12/2004 12:00:39 AM   
KGrob

 

Posts: 186
Joined: 11/8/2002
From: Yuba City, California
Status: offline 		It is historically accurate -- and it was fairly common -- for more than one pilot to claim a specific kill.

Thus, if two squadrons of friendly fighters engaged two squadrons of enemy fighters, and five planes were shot down on each side, it wouldn't be unusual for each side to claim 8 to 12 (or more!) kills. And that is just he result of pilots who genuinely believe they are getting the kills. By the time you throw in a touch of propaganda and political spin you might get a lot more.

This was also common among the allied bombers when a German fighter was shot down. If four German fighters got shot down on a bombing mission, be assured that double that many allied gunners made claims for the kills. And, it makes it difficult to verify when you don't have access to the aircraft crash sites.

This is especially true at sea. An aircraft that crashes into the ocean is a little harder to confirm than one that leaves a smoking hole in the ground.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 8
RE: Super Fighters - 8/12/2004 12:03:34 AM   
ZOOMIE1980

 

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline 		They did have gun cameras back then didn't they?

(in reply to KGrob)
Post #: 9
RE: Super Fighters - 8/12/2004 12:24:35 AM   
Nixuebrig

 

Posts: 1138
Joined: 1/2/2001
From: (c) Lübeck, now Berlin
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

They did have gun cameras back then didn't they?


Yep, but mostly you don`t follow your victim until he crashes.
You shoot at him, he makes a dive and you consider him killed (and your gun camera indicates a sure kill, or a probably). He climbs up and is enganged again.

In the air war over Europe USAAF Pilots claimed the whole Luftwaffe shotdown in one day, just because they fought the same fighters again and again. And turret gunners often fired at the same target and all claimed this kill for them.
FIghting over your own territorium helps, as you can simply count the wrecks;)

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)
Post #: 10
RE: Super Fighters - 8/12/2004 1:06:53 AM   
KGrob

 

Posts: 186
Joined: 11/8/2002
From: Yuba City, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

They did have gun cameras back then didn't they?


Yes they did. But, they were practically non-existant until later in the war and even then their use wasn't all that widespread -- granted it was more common in some types of American aircraft than it was for our allies or for the Axis. Photo equipment took up weight and space that could be used for fuel or ammo, and was also expensive.

And, as Prince stated, the "gun camera" most often caught only fleeting glimpses of the action. They might detect an enemy aircraft being hit by machineguns, etc. (Not all aircraft burst into flames when struck by enemy fire.) But, even with a gun camera, numbers might be inflated -- it was certainly possible for gun cameras on two friendly aircraft to record the same enemy being struck and....presto....you have two kills of one aircraft -- both verified by gun camera.

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)
Post #: 11
RE: Super Fighters - 8/12/2004 4:12:51 AM   
MadDawg

 

Posts: 374
Joined: 6/24/2004
Status: offline 		Personaly Id just wish they would sync up the animation and combat report to show the same values as they did in UV (and as it states in the manual), as currently both of these show different, yet FOW'ed, kill statistics.

As a player who doesnt have time to sit through every and every animation this is very annoying as the animation seems to give much closer results than the report, thus if I dont watch it I am getting a less accurate picture of a battle than my opponent.

Dawg

(in reply to pendrich)
Post #: 12
RE: Super Fighters - 8/12/2004 9:20:58 PM   
gdpsnake

 

Posts: 786
Joined: 8/7/2000
From: Kempner, TX
Status: offline 		Yes, it's possible that many CLAIMS were made BUT that many claims were NOT honored! Otherwise, everyone would have been an ace with 50 kills!

(in reply to MadDawg)
Post #: 13
RE: Super Fighters - 8/12/2004 9:53:22 PM   
Nixuebrig

 

Posts: 1138
Joined: 1/2/2001
From: (c) Lübeck, now Berlin
Status: offline 		e.g. the Allied raid vs Schweinfurt
Gunners claimed 288 Interceptors shot down, which was corrected to 148 and many probables.
The true Number of shot down interceptors was 27.

Figures taken from "The Mighty Eigth" by Freeman

It is not that unusual that much higher numbers were allowed, it`s just a question of moral. You can take own losses easier when you think the enemy suffers at the same or even greater rate.

(in reply to gdpsnake)
Post #: 14
RE: Super Fighters - 8/13/2004 11:44:49 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

You obviously never saw the German kills reported during the Battle of Britain.


Both sides in BoB multiplied enemy looses and divided their own...


Leo "Apollo11"

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(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 15
RE: Super Fighters - 8/14/2004 1:37:17 PM   
DJAndrews

 

Posts: 305
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Toronto, ON, CA
Status: offline 		For those who want a better ideas of actual losses, just look at the intelligence report. It gives the un-FOW'd aircraft losses by category (air to air, lost to flak, etc.) each turn. It can be handy in assessing ship losses too as aircraft losses when a carrier or capital ship (with float planes) sinks show up as "destroyed on ground".

The only time the intell report becomes less useful is when a number of furballs occur on the same day. Then you can't tell which aircraft were lost, where.

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 16
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