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RE: Those horrible Nates - 8/17/2004 1:17:08 PM   
CJ Martin

 

Posts: 119
Joined: 5/20/2002
From: Pax River, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!
Get over yourselves... you are wasting our time and our brain cells with your moronic spew.


"Our time"???

You sure as hell ain't speaking for me, and you have a lot to learn about manners.

I've read a heck of a lot more useful information on this game from those you choose to attack. If your hotheaded comments chase them away, you will be reducing *MY* enjoyment of the game, and impacting *MY* understanding of how things work. Note I don't speak for anyone other than myself - and FWIW my opinion is just as valuable as yours.

Frankly I'm shocked that a post like yours is allowed to stand after repeated warnings. If I were a moderator, you'd be gone, no poll required.

-CJ

(in reply to Lemurs!)
Post #: 211
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/17/2004 1:43:52 PM   
Marc von Martial


Posts: 10875
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Bonn, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Cat
Screwing around with changing the current upgrade path and the entire historical reality that WITP is now should NOT be based on the " Demands " of 8 guys who are making 50 posts each on wanting it.

That`s not demand, but a few lobbying a lot. Just as many think it`s fine as is but only post once and move on with their lives and gaming.


[image]http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/micons/m6.gif [/image]

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Post #: 212
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/17/2004 2:02:28 PM   
Nusskuchen


Posts: 10
Joined: 8/13/2004
Status: offline 		@Marc Schwanebeck:

I am pretty serious when I say I want my money back and I am very angered that I have bought this flawed (in my eyes) product.

You have tricked me into paying 99$ for a game, which doesnt hold what you promise in advertisement- this is also called a SCAM.

From the WITP homepage (I made the important part in bolt, so Mr. "Thumbs up" can find it too

# WitP covers the entire Pacific Theater of WWII from Dec 7th 1941 until June 30th 1946.
# Huge game map - 148 X 148 hexes with each hex representing 60 nautical miles.
# The armed forces of every major nation are represented.
# The Japanese control their production.
# Oil and Resources added to the game for production.
# Complete player control of aircraft upgrades.
# Course and Speed – Course and speed is now provided with spotting reports.
# Divide Units – land and air units can be divided into sub units and recombined as needed.
# Table of Equipment - An option has been added that allows the player to view the TOE for the selected ground combat unit.


And no- I am not a new user- I just dont find my login anymore (Kensai)

Since it dont look like to take either the players serious who demant a feature which you advertise nor to live up to the promises of this game, I hope you will find a way to give me my money back.

If not, I will be hard pressed to call the credit card company and get my money back from there.

(in reply to Marc von Martial)
Post #: 213
RE: A member of the "Japanese Aircraft Upgrade Gro... - 8/17/2004 2:31:56 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, OK round and round we go.....The group upgrade path is also used by the AI. The AI is designed to play more historicaly then a human (with the ability to sometimes pull a fast one) The upgrade paths are often a product of both history and where a group is deployed and what HQ it belongs to.

Now really I have no problem with allowing the Japanese player (and the Allied because the shoe on the Japanese foot is not longer then the American) To select what aircraft his groups is flying. What he is building or any other issue.

Now I used the game as designed and early on I went and looked to see what group upgraded to what aircraft and before I began moving units I used this to decide what unit would go where. I accepted the upgrade paths because thats what the game had.
(I pity the women some of these guys know who were not born exactly perfect)
After I understood what future demands the IJA Airforce was going to make on aircraft production I went to my factories and made sure I would be able to meet them.

Then while making my Operational plans for Phase 1 I made the effort to have certain groups moving where the aircraft they upgraded to would be required and other groups moved according to what they would have. I planned ahead. It appears to me there are some players who resent being forced to plan operations. In a operational level game this appears to me to be oxymoronic.

Please don't keep saying the Japanese don't get the benifit of their production system. Of course they do. The game continues. And if they would just wait to actually see the process occur they would realize they are influenceing THEIR military forces. However their production will never produce a force to overwhelm the Western Alliance and China.
It is during Phase 1 Operations that Japan decides the future course of the war and this is done with unupgraded lightly reinforced often understrength units.

New Airgroups require aircraft in the pool. The pilots come free and trained but there must be aircraft in the pool or the group will never arrive on map.

Just in reinforcements (not group upgrades) The Japanese production will have to provide for
6xGeorge Daitai 294 aircraft
6xFrank Sentai 216 aircraft
7xTony Sentai 252 aircraft
5xTojo Sentai 210 aircraft

Then if you wish to have trained pilots for these groups you will need to assign at least one of these groups as replacements and when it returns on map with untrained pilots have enough aircraft to reform it. Then still more will be required in pool to provide replacements from the pilot pool. (The IJA pool should still contain at least 100 pilots when phase 2 begins.)

< Message edited by Mogami -- 8/17/2004 7:52:05 AM >

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Post #: 214
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/17/2004 2:59:31 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nusskuchen

@Marc Schwanebeck:

I am pretty serious when I say I want my money back and I am very angered that I have bought this flawed (in my eyes) product.

You have tricked me into paying 99$ for a game, which doesnt hold what you promise in advertisement- this is also called a SCAM.

From the WITP homepage (I made the important part in bolt, so Mr. "Thumbs up" can find it too

# WitP covers the entire Pacific Theater of WWII from Dec 7th 1941 until June 30th 1946.
# Huge game map - 148 X 148 hexes with each hex representing 60 nautical miles.
# The armed forces of every major nation are represented.
# The Japanese control their production.
# Oil and Resources added to the game for production.
# Complete player control of aircraft upgrades.
# Course and Speed – Course and speed is now provided with spotting reports.
# Divide Units – land and air units can be divided into sub units and recombined as needed.
# Table of Equipment - An option has been added that allows the player to view the TOE for the selected ground combat unit.


And no- I am not a new user- I just dont find my login anymore (Kensai)

Since it dont look like to take either the players serious who demant a feature which you advertise nor to live up to the promises of this game, I hope you will find a way to give me my money back.

If not, I will be hard pressed to call the credit card company and get my money back from there.




Yeow I think someone could make a case for the fact that no group will upgrade unless you say so as your having complete control of airgroup upgrades.
In the USA we have complete control of where we drive our cars. But we have to obey the speed limit and we have to drive on the right side of the road.
Complete control of airgroups to some seems tomean they can assign any aircraft they like whenever they like. Complete control to the designers and others means nothing occurs without your approval. Was this fact overlooked in AAR before release?

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Post #: 215
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/17/2004 3:10:20 PM   
Nusskuchen


Posts: 10
Joined: 8/13/2004
Status: offline 		Well,

if youre used to play GG titles then youre also used to free upgrading within some limitations (usually aircraft types and nations). But a fixed upgrade path is not something I would call "Complete player control of aircraft upgrades". It is not complete, in fact you have only the option to upgrade to a fixed successor- which is about as useful as a third thumb. The best would have been they would have never implemented R&D at all- so the people who "whine" around so much and annoy the superhistoricplayers to no end woudlnt have bought the product in the first place.

And to use your example of the car: this is like advertising one with great features and 500hp with "complete control" but forget to say you can actually drive this thing only forward since it has neither a steering wheel nor a reverse gear and with complete control is meant you can actually push the accelerator and fart into the seat.

< Message edited by Nusskuchen -- 8/17/2004 1:14:22 PM >

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 216
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/17/2004 3:13:33 PM   
Nusskuchen


Posts: 10
Joined: 8/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:


Then while making my Operational plans for Phase 1 I made the effort to have certain groups moving where the aircraft they upgraded to would be required and other groups moved according to what they would have. I planned ahead. It appears to me there are some players who resent being forced to plan operations. In a operational level game this appears to me to be oxymoronic.


This isnt historic either and youre using 20/20 hindsight to use only the "best" airgroups.

Maybe we could screw the "IJA->IJA AC, IJN->IJN" crowd (nine people now :rolleyes:) even further, after all we could prevent your exploit by assigning random upgrades at gamestart which are only visible after you have enough of this aircraft in the pool. Only to prevent unhistoric playing.

Edit: instead of "complete player control of air..." should be written "forced and restricted upgradepathes which will be in place regardless of your losses and production". Sounds better and more honest to me.

< Message edited by Nusskuchen -- 8/17/2004 1:17:33 PM >

(in reply to Nusskuchen)
Post #: 217
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/17/2004 3:15:03 PM   
Culiacan Mexico

 

Posts: 8348
Joined: 11/10/2000
From: Bad Windsheim Germany
Status: offline 		Was this for me?
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami
After I understood what future demands the IJA Airforce was going to make on aircraft production I went to my factories and made sure I would be able to meet them. Then while making my Operational plans for Phase 1 I made the effort to have certain groups moving where the aircraft they upgraded to would be required and other groups moved according to what they would have. I planned ahead. It appears to me there are some players who resent being forced to plan operations. In a operational level game this appears to me to be oxymoronic.

I found out early that detailed planning is essential to this game. There are just so many things moving on the map that if you don’t have a grasps, which I didn’t the first couple of weeks… you are lost. Like I said, I have listed groups and how they upgrade Tony/Tojo and pre-plan where it will be stationed (Burma and New Guinea). I feel this is a clumsy way to do it, but with the game as designed… I feel it is a must. It works, but I would mind a easier/better system.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami
Please don't keep saying the Japanese don't get the benifit of their production system. Of course they do. The game continues. And if they would just wait to actually see the process occur they would realize they are influenceing THEIR military forces. However their production will never produce a force to overwhelm the Western Alliance and China.
I don’t recall saying the Japanese don’t get benefits from production on this thread. I do believe Japan’s production capabilities during WW2 were moderate, and I belief I am being generous. I don’t believe ‘production’ can alter the course of the Allied onslaught, and think ‘Frank’ aircraft or not… pilot quality is going to be the major concern in 1944/45. I could easily be wrong as I haven’t played out that far, but if the game follows history to any extent… the Japanese air force is going to be hurting come 1944 no matter what you produce.

I admit I have never played out that far and could easily be wrong. My babblings can be ignored.

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Post #: 218
RE: A member of the "Japanese Aircraft Upgrade Gro... - 8/17/2004 3:16:18 PM   
WhoCares


Posts: 653
Joined: 7/6/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami
...
Now I used the game as designed and early on I went and looked to see what group upgraded to what aircraft and before I began moving units I used this to decide what unit would go where. I accepted the upgrade paths because thats what the game had.
...

As a professional in verification I can tell you that there is a prime error here - in verification (and nothing else does a Beta-Tester do) your first task is to question every fact a designer presents you. Admittedly, WitP is neither ABS nor Airbag, but what sense does your kind of testing do - instead of playing according to the game mechanics wouldn't it make much more sense to test it in a straight-forward and common sense way. And every time you run in a problem with the common sense approach the designer should come up with a good explanation to keep his approach, as, rest assured, the future customer might want to play it with some common sense as well. And if the designer has a good reason to do it his way, this approach should be well documented in the manual...

I doubt that Japan already knew which airgroup would fly which type of plane in 1943/44. They neither knew, where they would face the strongest opposition and where they might need what type of fighter in whatever amount. They just had fighter groups assigned to HQs, going to the theatres their HQ went to. And when new planes arrived, the High Command sent them where they were needed most urgently (hopefully they did; as player I definatly would want to do so).
Your approach to send airgroups according to their upgrade path to different locations is actually as much hindsight operation as a high research on late-war airplanes is.

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 219
RE: A member of the "Japanese Aircraft Upgrade Gro... - 8/17/2004 3:18:22 PM   
Culiacan Mexico

 

Posts: 8348
Joined: 11/10/2000
From: Bad Windsheim Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoCares
Your approach to send airgroups according to their upgrade path to different locations is actually as much hindsight operation as a high research on late-war airplanes is.
Agreed, but with the game as designed... that is what you need to do.

_____________________________

"If you love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lig

(in reply to WhoCares)
Post #: 220
RE: Those horrible Nates - 8/17/2004 3:21:32 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!
Get over yourselves... you are wasting our time and our brain cells with your moronic spew. If anyone in your camp ever actually answered a question honestly i would probably just keel over and die.
You either trust Garys production system or you do not. If you make any further idiotic comments about the production system i will know that you think that Gary's game is broken.
It will be interesting to see your response.
Actually, it won't... Frag has never read a post in his life.


There's no place for this - these statements accomplished nothing but a personal attack and one based on extremely shaky foundations at that. Between this and your previous "this is my ban me post" I begin to think you are for some odd, self-destructive reason really looking for moderator attention.

You obviously have a lot of knowledge in this field based on your other posts. Please stick to civility and factual debate.

Regards,

- Erik

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For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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(in reply to Lemurs!)
Post #: 221
RE: A member of the "Japanese Aircraft Upgrade Gro... - 8/17/2004 3:24:26 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, Once again the upgrade paths are also there for the AI. The human player has to put up with them so he can play against the AI. In a 2 human game much of the need for set upgrade paths is gone. However there would still remain the exploits. The aircraft factories on rd are for the AI. So aircraft enter production on or about a certain historic date. Then based on the number of factories the AI will update certain groups to certain types. WITP would only need 3 data files per scenario to make everyone happy. 1 Japanese AI 1 Allied AI and 1 both Human.

The RD factories do not actually exist. They are for the AI but a human can set them to producing actual aircraft as soon as he has the supply and there is 2,000,000 supply on Dec 7th. All these factories would have to be removed before freedom was given.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 8/17/2004 8:26:34 AM >

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Post #: 222
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/17/2004 3:25:09 PM   
Rainerle

 

Posts: 463
Joined: 7/24/2002
From: Burghausen/Bavaria
Status: offline 		Hi,
First: It is not a game breaker and I never would consider giving up on the game !
Second: Japan needs (nearly) all freedom in regards to production/research !
Why ?
The destruction/disabling/ruining/wrecking etc. of the japanese industry is the allied players job. period. If the allied player does nothing japan should have a super-duper empire with big ships and mighty aircraft carriers and sophisticated bombers/fighters crossing the skys by the thousands. If the game takes this responsibility away from the allied player and introduces some historic limits it is not fair because this very history (and the imposed limits on Japan in the game) has been influenced by allied action. So the resulting 1) drop of pilot quality 2) low numbers of aircraft 3) resource/oil shortage 4) problems of introducing more and better aircraft are a direct result of the allied war effort - or better the result of what this entire game is about.
So effectively the japanese side is doubled punished as it has to live with historic limits (imposed by allied action) and on top of this the allied player imposes his own actions (bombing, subs, mines etc.). Hopefully I could bring my point accross.

The 'nearly' from the top. This means that some common sense needs still to be applied like army/navy rivalry and some research limits like C after B after A or some such thing.

Very respectfully and thanks for listening/reading

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Post #: 223
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/17/2004 3:32:56 PM   
Nusskuchen


Posts: 10
Joined: 8/13/2004
Status: offline 		@Rainerle:

I agree mostly with you- but for me the game is broken. Why? Because I am more a "what if" kind of player, I have the strong feeling some are better off to setting AI vs. AI and then watch the "game" with enjoyment.

And I also think it is stupid to take one point of 5000 factors and say "we must do this, because it is historic", when you completly ignore the other ones which have a big influence on the one you fix. Example: youre Oscar groups take ahistoric high losses in 1942 and now you need to switch the "historic" production of better planes to this old junkbird because you cant use the 1000s of better Army Fighter planes you have in pool. Only one thing of many which can go completly wrong.

(in reply to Rainerle)
Post #: 224
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/17/2004 3:35:55 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, Yes there are some built in game items that annoy those of us who want to write the history fresh. But since WIR2 (the first on for IBM) GG has always set the reinforcement schedules to historic. So we are given the groups and ships and LCU that were used in the war and not allowed to invent new ones. WITP continues this tradition and it should surprise no one. We have to plan around it.

However in WITP if the Japanese are winning and the Allies are not hurting the transport of oil and resource and Japanese HI is growing the Japanese will not suffer from a lack of trained pilots. (Do I really need to go over this again?) But the Japanese player will again (Crap more work ) have to manage his training program on map using groups for training. The Japanese player will end the game on 1 Jan 1943 or he will be faced with a long defense. If the game does not end on 1 Jan 1943 is means the Japanese player has failed in phase 1 or phase 2 operations. If he fails in phase 1 then all debate over production is pointless because he will be starving by 1 Jan 1943 (the game might still end here. In an Allied Victory) If he fails in phase 2 then he will have either sat on his butt or he will have suffered heavy loss. In the first case he will be strong and have a large pool. Good for him. There are massive battles looming on the horizen. If he suffered serious loss then he will be rebuilding and many of the groups he might have wanted to upgrade will be disbanded and out of play allowing his production to concentrate on those with better aircraft that still remain.

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Post #: 225
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/17/2004 3:40:49 PM   
Nusskuchen


Posts: 10
Joined: 8/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:


However in WITP if the Japanese are winning and the Allies are not hurting the transport of oil and resource and Japanese HI is growing the Japanese will not suffer from a lack of trained pilots. (Do I really need to go over this again?) But the Japanese player will again (Crap more work ) have to manage his training program on map using groups for training. The Japanese player will end the game on 1 Jan 1943 or he will be faced with a long defense. If the game does not end on 1 Jan 1943 is means the Japanese player has failed in phase 1 or phase 2 operations. If he fails in phase 1 then all debate over production is pointless because he will be starving by 1 Jan 1943 (the game might still end here. In an Allied Victory) If he fails in phase 2 then he will have either sat on his butt or he will have suffered heavy loss. In the first case he will be strong and have a large pool. Good for him. There are massive battles looming on the horizen. If he suffered serious loss then he will be rebuilding and many of the groups he might have wanted to upgrade will be disbanded and out of play allowing his production to concentrate on those with better aircraft that still remain.


Ok, but why cant I decide which airgroups get the new planes and which one get disbanded? Why I have to resort to such micromangement instead just picking the best airgroups and upgrade them with the best aircrafts?

I dont understand why a game with such flexibilty does fix a point which can bring you a lot of problems if you dont work around- like you do.

As I see it: nearly every decision you do in this game is ahistoric, I dont understand the beef of some people if a player goes on and upgrade more groups of planes with Franks. Is it really worse then attacking Australia or taking Midway? Its like saying as the Allies you cant attack Okinawa before 1945.

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 226
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/17/2004 3:42:36 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nusskuchen

@Rainerle:

I agree mostly with you- but for me the game is broken. Why? Because I am more a "what if" kind of player, I have the strong feeling some are better off to setting AI vs. AI and then watch the "game" with enjoyment.

And I also think it is stupid to take one point of 5000 factors and say "we must do this, because it is historic", when you completly ignore the other ones which have a big influence on the one you fix. Example: youre Oscar groups take ahistoric high losses in 1942 and now you need to switch the "historic" production of better planes to this old junkbird because you cant use the 1000s of better Army Fighter planes you have in pool. Only one thing of many which can go completly wrong.



Hi, When your Oscar groups suffer ahistoric high loss they will be withdrawn from combat and disbanded. Then the remaining groups will be able to return to service away form where they are useless. At the front they will be replaced by the newer groups with better aircarft that your production is supporting.

Japanese airgroups cannot remain in combat and suffer high loss unless you provide trained replacement pilots. If your going to use untrained pilots you should use them in your older aircraft and not the ones you are saving for your good pilots.

Japanese players should understand (And all will learn someday) that Japan cannot engage in sustained combat all accross the board. She can pick 1 or 2 areas and if she stretches resources maybe 3. If she loses in anyone of these areas it will cause the loss of the others. Really I still don't see where any complainer has actually encountered this dreadful handicap of being unable to upgrade a group. In Phase 1 the Nate can handle any opposition except for USN and AVG. In both cases if you provide A6M2 support the Nate can continue to fight.

Why worry about 1944 aircraft types?

< Message edited by Mogami -- 8/17/2004 8:45:01 AM >

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Post #: 227
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/17/2004 3:49:49 PM   
Nusskuchen


Posts: 10
Joined: 8/13/2004
Status: offline 		Because I dont want to have a great airgroup stick endless with Oscars when I can upgrade them with better planes.

What youre saying is valid, but this would be also true when you would allow the player to upgrade with more freedom.

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 228
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/17/2004 3:53:09 PM   
WhoCares


Posts: 653
Joined: 7/6/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami
...
Really I still don't see where any complainer has actually encountered this dreadful handicap of being unable to upgrade a group. In Phase 1 the Nate can handle any opposition except for USN and AVG. In both cases if you provide A6M2 support the Nate can continue to fight.

Why worry about 1944 aircraft types?


Just think about losing half of your airgroups with Franks and having to wait for them to return in 90 days because you can't promote another unit...

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 229
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/17/2004 3:54:08 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, Ok in your current game what is the date and how many great Oscar groups do you have and how many better aircraft are in the pool? I'll try to figure out a plan to use them. Send the file to Mogami69bsa@aol.com Then I will post the solution here for everyone else. I can't use any of my games because I don't have the problem. (I built what I needed not what I wanted)

If you edit your groups to OscarI and set them to auto upgrade they will use what ever aircraft are in the pool. But the upgrade paths exist for the AI. We'll all need to get together and make 3 files for every scenario. Then the players will have more freedom without changing a line of code.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 8/17/2004 8:55:55 AM >

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Post #: 230
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/17/2004 6:57:06 PM   
Godisard

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 8/17/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Yes there are some built in game items that annoy those of us who want to write the history fresh. But since WIR2 (the first on for IBM) GG has always set the reinforcement schedules to historic. So we are given the groups and ships and LCU that were used in the war and not allowed to invent new ones. WITP continues this tradition and it should surprise no one. We have to plan around it.


Nobody is complaining about historic reinforcement schedules. This debate is about the upgrade paths. In the strategic level Grigsby games I've played, upgrades for airgroups (and tankdivisions) were not as rigidly fixed as they are now. If you argue otherwise you've never played any of his earlier strategic level games.

quote:

Ok in your current game what is the date and how many great Oscar groups do you have and how many better aircraft are in the pool? I'll try to figure out a plan to use them. Send the file to Mogami69bsa@aol.com Then I will post the solution here for everyone else.


I shouldn't have to mail a betatester to do something that should be pretty simple. The game was advertised with having as one of its features "complete player control of aircraft upgrades". When I bought the game, I indeed expected it to have that, just like I had in for instance WIR and BTR (can't remember if PacWar and Western Front had it - too long ago since I played them). Those games didn't turn into fantasy games even though I could upgrade my airgroups with more freedom. Why? Because as Lemurs already pointed out in his first post in this thread (ignore the insults), GG designed a production and upgrade system that put certain penalties on upgrades. These penalties ensured that upgrades happened within limits and as a result I would always get a game that was what I would consider a realistic alternate history of the German war against Russia or the allied strategic bombing campaign against Germany.
Creating alternate histories is what these games are all about. You're kidding yourself if you think the game will be more historic with rigid upgrade paths for aircraft. Once you start turn 1 of WitP, you're writing history fresh. The game is one long "what if?" and it wouldn't be fun if it was otherwise.
What if the reality of the alternate history I'm creating, forces me to upgrade (or downgrade) one fightergroup to another type of fighter that my pool is full of? Even though I may have 500 of that fighter in the pool I can't upgrade the fightergroup if those 500 are not in the fixed aircraft upgrade path or can I? In the context of the alternate history I'm creating that would be ridiculous imo.

quote:

If you edit your groups to OscarI and set them to auto upgrade they will use what ever aircraft are in the pool. But the upgrade paths exist for the AI. We'll all need to get together and make 3 files for every scenario. Then the players will have more freedom without changing a line of code.


That doesn't solve a thing I think. I'd like to have a choice. Ideally, I would want a "change aircraft" button which should bring up a list of aircraft (and how many are in the pool of each type) I can upgrade or downgrade to.

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 231
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/17/2004 6:58:42 PM   
Lemurs!


Posts: 788
Joined: 6/1/2004
Status: offline 		So I finally have an answer from Mogami.

The production system is broken and is too easy to manipulate to ahistorical results. BTR was not broken at least in this manner.

Why couldn't Frag or Mogami or someone just come out and tell us this? I have already from my modding noticed that there is way to much manpower in the game for Japan. I lowered the number somewhat but i am unsure as to the long term effect.

Maybe this can be the first thing Matrix works on, a balance to the Japanese production?

Mike

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Post #: 232
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/17/2004 7:13:00 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, Who said it was broken? It works exactly like it is supposed to. But then there are those who don't like it and want to change it. Now we are EXPLOITING it. Many things are designed for a purpose but can be used for other purpose as well. A wood saw used to produce music is not broken but it's not sawing boards either.

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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Post #: 233
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/17/2004 7:18:57 PM   
pyaeen

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 7/5/2004
Status: offline 		Godisard, Good points!

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Post #: 234
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/17/2004 7:21:52 PM   
Lemurs!


Posts: 788
Joined: 6/1/2004
Status: offline 		A properly working production system is not expolitable to any great extent. Any system that allows production of 1000 tanks a month as Japan in
1942 is broken.
So, to answer your question, you said it was broken.

In BTR the system was not manipulable to this extent.

When a system can be EXPLOITED, to use your emphasis, this easily by a newbie playing their first game is broken where i come from.

Although if we can get some honest discourse going we can probably fix this.

Mike

< Message edited by Lemurs! -- 8/17/2004 12:22:11 PM >

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Post #: 235
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/17/2004 7:22:05 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, I think I've played every GG game except BTR. In Western Front you can change production but you can't change airgroups. (I thought you could when I bought it but I didn't have a fit when I found I couldn't I just stopped building 2000 ME-262) Western Front was released in 1991!!!! So this is not the first GG game with this exact same system.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 8/17/2004 12:23:59 PM >

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Post #: 236
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/17/2004 7:27:44 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

A properly working production system is not expolitable to any great extent. Any system that allows production of 1000 tanks a month as Japan in
1942 is broken.
So, to answer your question, you said it was broken.

In BTR the system was not manipulable to this extent.

When a system can be EXPLOITED, to use your emphasis, this easily by a newbie playing their first game is broken where i come from.

Although if we can get some honest discourse going we can probably fix this.

Mike



Hi, No it is not broken. Japan can build 1000 tanks per month. It may not be wise for Japan to do this. Does the system only have to allow sensible play? You are allowed to totally ruin Japan on Dec 7th 1941 if you so choose. Just start expanding everything untill you use up all the HIP and supply. It's stupid but it's the players call.
I can't comment on BTR and I can't use any comments by others since I have no frame of reference. But I've yet to find a game I could not exploit. WIR, Western Front, PACWAR, UV all have exploits. If you know they are exploits and you still use them thats your call. Knowing the AI requires a setup and then using it for your advantage is an exploit not a broken system. I've pointed out the easy remedy. All scenarios with production will need versus AI data and versus human data. The upgrade paths for human versus human can be removed without impact because there is no AI involvment in assigning or using airgroups. All the AI factories will be removed and the human Japanese player will be unable to exploit them. with out this exploitable production the Japanese player will have a hard time upgrading the entire Japanese airforce.



(To anyone reading this thread. Do I come accross as opposed for no reason? Hostile? or am I as I hope to be trying to explain why WITP exists as it does and what all besides merely throwing in a toggle will be impacted. )

< Message edited by Mogami -- 8/17/2004 12:36:08 PM >

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Post #: 237
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/17/2004 7:34:35 PM   
Lemurs!


Posts: 788
Joined: 6/1/2004
Status: offline 		What we need is a system that allows the Japanese HI to double more or less from the game opening and allows military production to expand eight times, more or less, within that doubling of HI.

This should not be too dificult to accomplish.

Within those bounds Japan should at least have the OPTION to produce whatever you want. If you destroy your countries economy by producing to much HI or if you don't produce aircraft because you build tanks that is of course your problem.
That is what i would like to see; a historical start and historical limits but allow us the player to screw up or not screw up Japan's economy as we wish.

The thing that strikes me as in error in the production system right of the bat is manpower.
When i first read about this game and that it would have manpower directly represented i thought that would give us the opportunity to represent the dichotomy between the Japanese facories and the Japanese armies. Which do we use our manpower on?

I think one thing that could help this system would be for HI to require manpower points on a daily basis to run. This represents the factory workers. Since we produce manpower on a daily basis i propose that factories start using it on a daily basis.
That would give us a powerful limiter on expansion.

The reality was that there were both more resources & oil available than Japan could ever use IF they could get it to the factories. Manpower was not something that could be expanded however.

Mike

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Post #: 238
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/17/2004 7:39:58 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, I don't actually think Japan expanded HI by 8x during the War. What they did was go from 21 percent of GNP for war production to 43 percent GNP while GNP rose from I think 38million yen to around 50 million yen. There was an increase in production to be sure but it was not some much a result of expanding HI to converting HI from civilian to military production. Aircraft production was around 700 per month in 1941 and rose to 2500 per month in 1944.

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Post #: 239
RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - - 8/17/2004 7:41:17 PM   
Adnan Meshuggi

 

Posts: 2220
Joined: 8/2/2001
Status: offline 		Hi Mogami...

i think the BTR is the "problem"

in btr you could play a long time.....
you had to produce engines, parts and "aircrafts" for any plane.
For example you had me109 parts and daimler-engines, and different version of messerschmidt me109 planes..

now, in a place you had for example 10 daimler engines, 5 daimler engines, 8 me109 parts, 3 me109g6 and 6 me109g10parts... also say 1 macci202-part.
If you changed the macci part, you got a delay of 10 days (for each 1 part 10 days of retooling)...
so, if you changed all to fw190 and fw190parts and bmw-engines, you dropped your capacity of this place for a long time (in my example for 10+100+50+80+30+60=330 days of production = around 4800 engines, 3000 planes and 3000 parts...
)

With this method you could easily manage to force the japanese player to be careful about airplaneproduction.... some larger plants (with around 25 engines) never could changed cause of the huge delay of retooling..

So many people who played btr are really upset (or at last irritated) that this good production system was thrown into the ocean for something really bad... combined with this, you should have zero problems with upgrades or research... cause a factory did research AFTER the retooling was finished, correction, after ALL retooling was finished.

This kind of production would have solved any problem in witp...

if you make a fixed production for american and some british planes +onmap-production for certain things (like australian facories could produce australian and british planes FREELY) you could solve the whole production mess.

The most important leson of btr is, that you really spent a lot time to play and get upset if you drop a game for some stupid bug after 200 or 300 hours of gameing.

Myself want to play longer, but not only allways the beginning of the pacwar... i want to fight it out to the end... for both sides. And i have no interest in investing time in a japanese position with silly upgrade paths (oh, don´t forget the downgrade thing!) cause if i did a good job in 42 but miss the autovictory (i even would avoid it cause i hate such things) i want to do better in 43, 44 and 45... but the actual production/upgrade thing forbid this....


but against the ai i have the editor....

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Don't tickle yourself with some moralist crap thinking we have some sort of obligation to help these people. We're there for our self-interest, and anything we do to be 'nice' should be considered a courtesy dweebespit

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