Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

Look at what happened in real life, then be thankful for a game that simulates it so well.

Leyte Gulf - overwhelming surface force gets marginal victory against screening forces and does not penetrate to the invasion transports at all.

Savo Island - surface force annihilates screening ships and does not penetrate to the invasion transports.

There's not much point in going on and on about this. I suggest that you attribute the "kill one let the other hundred go" results to fate, command, circumstance, and whatever else you want.

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ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

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ORIGINAL: Thayne

Actually, I think that the surface combat routine is fine the way it is.

If one imagines hitting a big gaggle of freighters all bunched neatly in a small area, then the results are hard to explain.

However, in fact, it was traditional for freighters -- when not escorted -- to run with picket ships. That is to say, one or two freighters would run a fair distance away from the pack. The idea is that the surface ships would see this freighter, he would radio in to the rest of the pack, which would scatter, moving off in all directions.

The task force commander then has the option of going after -- perhaps -- one or two more ships, or splitting up his own task force to go after multiple shiips. But, there is safety in numbers -- in terms of AA coverage, in terms of firepower in case the task force should run across some enemy surface ships. Plus, there is the fact that surface ships travelling in a straight line are at risk of submarine attack, and go through fuel quickly (reducing the amount of time they have on patrol). And, a fleeing merchant ship, if it is fleeing anywhere, just might be seeking the protection of some really big guns that happen to be in the area. Splitting up to pursue multiple targets is very dangerous. To get one or two more freighters, it hardly seems worth it.

So, I think, the existing model does a good job of capturing what would actually happen if a group of surface ships encountered freighters in the actual war. The picket ship would certainly die. The task force would be able to hunt down one or two additional ships. Then the task force would go back into traditional patrol mode.

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Hmm, I thought the forum was more interested in important stuff like continuing games after they end?

Why worry about trivial stuff like naval combat?

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

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What are you using for these hallucinations

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ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
Neither example has anything to do with a beat-up group of 10-knot Merchies all by themselves being engaged in daylight by numerous and much faster group of warships.

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ORIGINAL: pasternakski

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ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
Neither example has anything to do with a beat-up group of 10-knot Merchies all by themselves being engaged in daylight by numerous and much faster group of warships.

Can't agree, Mike. Look at the surface TF from the example: an old "R" class BB, 21 knots max, four of those dreadful old undergunned British CLs, and a couple of destroyers. Yes, I would have expected better results, too, but you've got to remember that you were not in command of the TF. From the description, LBA has been active, the situation is fluid, and the commander is one of those early Brits, all of whom are "careful" except for Layton, and he's a CVTF commander.

What I think we're seeing here is the result of a mediocre commander in charge of a thin TF against an unknown quantity and quality of enemy forces. You know from looking at the combat results that this was a pitiful convoy of 26 undefended transport vessels, many of which are severely damaged, but this information was not available to the captain or admiral standing on the bridge of the one significant ship in the group. Besides, our old girlfriend Betty might have been coming to the dance any time.

Leyte Gulf is directly applicable. Time was a-wastin' and the American battle line could have come over the horizon at any time. Aircraft were making attacks (even if only strafing), and more could have arrived any moment. Remember that the Musashi had been lost to air attack only shortly before.

Savo Island is even more pertinent. Retirement was the only alternative available due to the fast approach of sunlight and the known presence in the area of at least one fleet carrier (Fletcher screwing the pooch notwithstanding).

Again, I, too, would have expected better results, but I don't find anything wrong with this result, either. You pays your money and you takes your chance.

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

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Nor would they have worked so hard to ensure that such an occurance did not come to bear. In WitP, engaging merchant/transport TF's should be very hard to acheive if the opposing player is minding his P's and Q's.....but if such an occurance does come about, either through bad luck or more likely carelessness and lack of preperation, they should get spanked for it.

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ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

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Nor would they have worked so hard to ensure that such an occurance did not come to bear. In WitP, engaging merchant/transport TF's should be very hard to acheive if the opposing player is minding his P's and Q's.....but if such an occurance does come about, either through bad luck or more likely carelessness and lack of preperation, they should get spanked for it.

Agreed, reason for my *pursue* feature request. Should a TF be grossly outgunned by a surface fleet, the standard step one hex away retreat move is balanced by the surface TF also stepping that one hex to get another couple of rounds of combat in. This would need to be balanced by an aggression check (commander skill) coupled with the React range being greater then 0 (so you can disable it) and an escape check (commander skill).

Gives a reason to stick better commanders in TF's too

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

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ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Savo is IMO a totally illegitimate example because Mikawa's Surface Combat TF never sighted or engaged the transport TF.

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ORIGINAL: Tankerace

One thing that should be done, IMO, is only put the ships on the combat screen that were sighted. This way it adds to the FoW, and people don't riot over results. If we KNOW a 20 ship TF is out there, but we can only SEE 4 ships, then we will be satisfied. But if all 20 are on the screen, many people (Myself included) tend to think that we should be able to see them aswell.

I agree, not a game killer, but something that could be looked at.

Of course, in retrospect, this current system actually suits my War Plan Orange Mod very well. In World War I (30 years before WiTP starts), a lot of times battlelines would pound one or two ships into driftwood, leaving the rest to escape. That should do nicely for my 1920's mod.

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Agreed, reason for my *pursue* feature request. Should a TF be grossly outgunned by a surface fleet, the standard step one hex away retreat move is balanced by the surface TF also stepping that one hex to get another couple of rounds of combat in. This would need to be balanced by an aggression check (commander skill) coupled with the React range being greater then 0 (so you can disable it) and an escape check (commander skill).

Gives a reason to stick better commanders in TF's too

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ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
Well, how would you explain what happened in my latest game vs veryhard J AI? Force Z (POW,Repulse, Danae and 5 DDs) boldy risks air attack in an attempt to disrupt the Kwantan landings. They remain undetected, defeat the 4 CA TF covering force soundly and suffer no torp hits, yet only engage one AP with a few shots and break off. Leach was in command and it is hard to believe that air attack was an acceptable risk in order to get at the transports but somehow becomes unacceptable with a strategic victory in their grasp. Please don't cite Mikawa at Savo as this was the exception, not the norm.

Really annoying that veteran RN crews with excellent radar can't find the majority of the enemy vessels in a TF. The concept of undetected ships in a TF is off, and the explanation that it is a sixty mile hex does not wash. If ships are that far away from the other ships in the TF, then they are not IN the same TF.

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ORIGINAL: pasternakski

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ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
Well, how would you explain what happened in my latest game vs veryhard J AI? Force Z (POW,Repulse, Danae and 5 DDs) boldy risks air attack in an attempt to disrupt the Kwantan landings. They remain undetected, defeat the 4 CA TF covering force soundly and suffer no torp hits, yet only engage one AP with a few shots and break off. Leach was in command and it is hard to believe that air attack was an acceptable risk in order to get at the transports but somehow becomes unacceptable with a strategic victory in their grasp. Please don't cite Mikawa at Savo as this was the exception, not the norm.

Really annoying that veteran RN crews with excellent radar can't find the majority of the enemy vessels in a TF. The concept of undetected ships in a TF is off, and the explanation that it is a sixty mile hex does not wash. If ships are that far away from the other ships in the TF, then they are not IN the same TF.

This is an easy one, Ron. Leach fought a challenging surface action that probably used up a lot of ammo (I wish that people complaining about surface TF effectiveness would understand that they can only be effective for so long - and cruisers and destroyers expend a he11 of a lot of ammo in a short time in surface combat). When considered along with the other factors mentioned above, I have no problem believing that he broke off combat with the covered surface TF.

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan