Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Not too sure I can agree to that one ... at night ... how do you *know* it's not escorted?

For all you know, the groups massive escort is heading right for you as you pick on a couple of ships near the edge of the pack ... suddenly your tasty treat turns into a couple of BB's!

I view night encounters as always iffy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Why not. Are daylight surface actions not also confused? What in daylight allows a ship firing its forward guns only in pursuit to target multiple targets?
In a surface combat where both sides want to fight they assume couse and formation that allows the fight to proceed. A transport TF is going to be trying to get away. While you are sinking this ship, that other ship is getting away. Once you finish the first you have to relocate the second and that might not be possible.

We can make the program as bloody as we want. This does not make it any more realistic.
No combat result can be predicted before the action occurs. There is more here then just X number of surface ships versus X number of transports result in X number of transports being lost.

Certainly the lower the range the first contact is made will make it harder for the transports to evade. But a large part of the following results will be comparing the two TF leaders. The fact that the combat "breaks off" so soon tells me the scatter is being used. If the game treated it as normal surface battle there would be more rounds and after one action ended another would begin. (like in normal surface versus surface actions)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

There is absolutely nothing you can do to convince anyone on this forum that one AK/AP/TK ship in a 20 ship AK/AP/TK TF taking 95% of the shell hits from a 6-8 ship surface combat TF is in any way a realistic combat result. There is no logic on earth that can justify that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Well you should say there is no logic on earth that will convince you. Since I don't have a problem with it and I have served on board ship chasing other ships.
I have served with officers I trusted and others who scared me.
Just like in any combat situation the end result is often decided by skill and not by numbers. There has been absoluty no consideration allowed for anything but calculation of fire power.

We can spread the discussion to include all bombers caught unescorted will be shot down.

In any event the portion of players who are happy with it as it presently is will have to conform to changes brought about to make other players happy. It will have little to no impact on me personally because I am normally the player with the surface TF in these situations and not the player with unescorted transports. All I can do is gain from the changes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Now had this TF stayed to fight it out in normal surface action I would expect more of it to have been lost. However since it was fleeing it all the directions of the compass from the start I think the surface TF accounted for a good haul.



Day Time Surface Combat at 59,72

Japanese Ships
AO Hayasui
TK Choran Maru, Shell hits 2, on fire
TK Gen'yo Maru, Shell hits 25, and is sunk
TK Kyokuto Maru
TK Nihon Maru
TK San Pedro Maru, Shell hits 24, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
AK Genoa Maru
AK Getuyo Maru
AK Glasgow Maru
AK Gosyu Maru, Shell hits 25, and is sunk
AK Goyo Maru, Shell hits 20, and is sunk
AK Hague Maru, Shell hits 28, on fire, heavy damage
AK Hakkai Maru
AK Hakodate Maru
AK Hakonesan Maru, Shell hits 5, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
AK Hakubasan Maru, Shell hits 9, on fire, heavy damage
AO Medan Maru, Shell hits 6, on fire
TK Kyokuho, Shell hits 1

Allied Ships
BB Indiana, Shell hits 1
BB Alabama
BB Iowa
BB New Jersey
CA Indianapolis
CA Louisville
CA Salt Lake City
CA New Orleans
CL Birmingham
CL St. Louis
CL Honolulu
DD Anthony
DD Aulick
DD Charles Ausburne
DD Charles Badger
DD Beale
DD Bell
DD Bennett
DD Bennion
DD Boyd
DD Bradford
DD Braine
DD Clarence Bronson
DD Brown
DD Bryant

2 Japanese sank after battle. 7 out of 17 (41 percent of engaged ships lost in a single action)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, OK you are upset because a single Japanese ship in a TF of 4 escaped?

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Singkawang at 25,57

Japanese Ships
MSW W.1, Shell hits 3, and is sunk
MSW W.2
AP Aikoku Maru
AP Asama Maru
AP Awajisan Maru
AP Ayato Maru
AP Ayatosan Maru, Shell hits 1
AP Chihaya Maru, Shell hits 25, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AP Daifuku Maru, Shell hits 1, on fire
AP Gosei Maru
AP Hakozaki Maru
AP Hikade Maru, Shell hits 2
AP Hikawa Maru, Shell hits 3, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AP Hokuriku Maru
AP Huso Maru
AP Iwaki Maru
AP Josho Maru
AP Kaika Maru
AP Kashi Maru
AP Kasuga Maru
AP Kasui Maru
AP Kinjosan Maru
AP Kisogawa Maru
AP Kiyozumi Maru
AP Koan Maru
AP Kogi Maru
AP Kogyo Maru
AP Koryu Maru
AP Koshu Maru #3
AP Kuroshio Maru
AP Marsue Maru
AP Meiko Maru
AP Meisho Maru
AP Meiyo Maru
AP Midori Maru
AP Mogamigawa Maru
AP Nichiai Maru, Shell hits 1, on fire
AP Nichiryu Maru
AP Nissen Maru #2
AP Nitta Maru
AP Nojima Maru
AP Ryugi Maru
AP Ryujo Maru
AP Santos Maru
AP Shoho Maru
AP Sumiyoshi Maru
AP Syoka Maru
AP Taibun Maru
AP Takuei Maru
AP Tatibana Maru
AP Tatsuho Maru
AP Tatumiya Maru
AP Tatuta Maru
AP Teiun Maru
AP Teiyo Maru
AP Tsunushima Maru
AP Ume Maru
AP Victoria Maru
AP Yoshinogawa Maru
AP Yuzan Maru
AP Tamatsu Maru, Shell hits 14, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, OK you are upset because a single Japanese ship in a TF of 4 escaped?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I can't see what is doing the damage so I can say. However any ship that is torpedoing another is not "catching" any other ship. With that many ships there is no way more then a fraction of them will be caught. (A ship on all points of the compass? pick one the others will get away.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RAM

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, OK you are upset because a single Japanese ship in a TF of 4 escaped?

He, don't know, but I'm for sure WELL upset because out of more than 55 APs only two got sunk. let's go with the report of the battle I spoke about, before I go back to my game...

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Singkawang at 25,57

Japanese Ships
MSW W.1, Shell hits 3, and is sunk
MSW W.2
AP Aikoku Maru
AP Asama Maru
AP Awajisan Maru
AP Ayato Maru
AP Ayatosan Maru, Shell hits 1
AP Chihaya Maru, Shell hits 25, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AP Daifuku Maru, Shell hits 1, on fire
AP Gosei Maru
AP Hakozaki Maru
AP Hikade Maru, Shell hits 2
AP Hikawa Maru, Shell hits 3, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AP Hokuriku Maru
AP Huso Maru
AP Iwaki Maru
AP Josho Maru
AP Kaika Maru
AP Kashi Maru
AP Kasuga Maru
AP Kasui Maru
AP Kinjosan Maru
AP Kisogawa Maru
AP Kiyozumi Maru
AP Koan Maru
AP Kogi Maru
AP Kogyo Maru
AP Koryu Maru
AP Koshu Maru #3
AP Kuroshio Maru
AP Marsue Maru
AP Meiko Maru
AP Meisho Maru
AP Meiyo Maru
AP Midori Maru
AP Mogamigawa Maru
AP Nichiai Maru, Shell hits 1, on fire
AP Nichiryu Maru
AP Nissen Maru #2
AP Nitta Maru
AP Nojima Maru
AP Ryugi Maru
AP Ryujo Maru
AP Santos Maru
AP Shoho Maru
AP Sumiyoshi Maru
AP Syoka Maru
AP Taibun Maru
AP Takuei Maru
AP Tatibana Maru
AP Tatsuho Maru
AP Tatumiya Maru
AP Tatuta Maru
AP Teiun Maru
AP Teiyo Maru
AP Tsunushima Maru
AP Ume Maru
AP Victoria Maru
AP Yoshinogawa Maru
AP Yuzan Maru
AP Tamatsu Maru, Shell hits 14, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

if someone finds this normal, or acceptable, then I must resign my colors, because nothing will convince him otherwise

[edit] the combat report doesn't list the allied ships in the combat, weird but true. Ships there were BB PoW, BB Revenge, CA Houston (flagship), CA Dorsetshire, CA Cornwall 3 CLs and 6 DDs

The Houston was the flagship so I could put an american officer of high agressiveness and capability into the TF[/edit].

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, OK you are upset because a single Japanese ship in a TF of 4 escaped?

No, upset that one in four slow, large targets going against 8 fast, agile pursuers takes 94% of all hits while two others take the remaining 3% and one doesn't get hit at all???

That is patently insane and beyond even the furtherest stretch of rational logic. But that combat result is the NORM. And as such, proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that formula needs a tweek of sorts.

And before you ask, a LOGICAL result would be:

AP Arizana Maru, shell hits 6, on fire
AP Eiko Maru, Shell hits 8, on fire
AP Kisaragi Maru, Shell hits 12, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AP Somedono Maru, Shell hits 26, on fire, heavy damage


That's what I'd expect to be the arithmetic mean of 20 such daylight engagements with this pursuit group....

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

quote:

ORIGINAL: CV8 Hornet

It seems to me that we are talking about 60 miles hexes. That's a lot of area to get lost in. Wouldn't the battle at Savo have included the Allied transports in the same hex as attacking Japanese surface forces and the defending allied cruisers?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, OK you are upset because a single Japanese ship in a TF of 4 escaped?

No, upset that one in four slow, large targets going against 8 fast, agile pursuers takes 94% of all hits while two others take the remaining 3% and one doesn't get hit at all???

That is patently insane and beyond even the furtherest stretch of rational logic. But that combat result is the NORM. And as such, proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that formula needs a tweek of sorts.

And before you ask, a LOGICAL result would be:

AP Arizana Maru, shell hits 6, on fire
AP Eiko Maru, Shell hits 8, on fire
AP Kisaragi Maru, Shell hits 12, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AP Somedono Maru, Shell hits 26, on fire, heavy damage


That's what I'd expect to be the arithmetic mean of 20 such daylight engagements with this pursuit group....

Hi, If it was the "norm" then evey post would be the same. I've posted results that are much worse then that (from the Japanese POV)
What kind of hits? When a DD gets to within AA range it begins firing AA and MG scoring "hits" but so what? So the one enemy ship DIW took AA/MG fire as every ship in your TF went by pursing the ones that took the other "3" percent.


Sometimes it appears to me that everyone thinks everyship in their TF has a firing solution on every enemy ship from start to finish of a naval battle and all they really need is the control to "direct " the fire. Every ship has a rating, every leader has a rating.
WITP is not a tactical game. You do not get to decide the tactical outcome of battles and no one here knows what the little cyber battle resolving during the animation actually looks like. It is not 2 opposing lines of ships firing at each other. In no combat it what is taking place two neat lines of ships firing at each other. It is just so you can see who hit what with what. That is all.

I want to know does every battle between surface ships and unescorted transports result in only 1 transport being lost in daylight actions. (I don't think so since I just posted one where 41 percent of the transports were sunk)

quote:

In that AAR with 50 ships there is nothing to suggest any of them were saw by the USN except by a single ship as they passed out of sight.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, You read the animation better then I do. How do you know they were all observed by every ship in your TF? Or could it be that the 1 that got away was only spotted by 1 of your ships and that ship also saw another target and fired at it instead?
That half your TF only saw one ship and pounded it. That of the other half only part of them saw the other 2.
I mean from the animation, the combatreport or anything ever placed in the manual do you know that every one of your ships saw every other ship.

In that AAR with 50 ships there is nothing to suggest any of them were saw by the USN except by a single ship as they passed out of sight.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RAM

Japanese Ships damaged during the combat:

MSW W.1, Shell hits 3, and is sunk
AP Ayatosan Maru, Shell hits 1
AP Chihaya Maru, Shell hits 25, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AP Daifuku Maru, Shell hits 1, on fire
AP Hikade Maru, Shell hits 2
AP Hikawa Maru, Shell hits 3, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AP Nichiai Maru, Shell hits 1, on fire
AP Tamatsu Maru, Shell hits 14, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage


So, out of a TF of some 55+ transports you're telling me that they saw only a single ship.

quote:

In that AAR with 50 ships there is nothing to suggest any of them were saw by the USN except by a single ship as they passed out of sight.

Barring the fact that most of the ships in the screen had name on it (meaning they were well known and spotted), at least SEVEN Transports were clearly seen, as at least SEVEN transports were fired upon and hit.

It just happens that out of 47 gun hits, 39 were inflicted on TWO ships, meaning that 82.9% of my naval TF gunfire, seeing AT LEAST Seven transports (in fact they saw many more of them as their names were visible), was directed at those TWO ships even while they were already clearly doomed. This simply isn't correct, no matter what.


As I said, I leave this debate with you as impossible...that you try to defend that out of a TF of more than 55 transports, only SEVEN are seen (while the tactical screen said otherwise) and only TWO of them get 82.9% of my gun's attention is out of my reach and comprehension. Maybe I'm too brainchallenged to understand it, but so are most of the people who have intervened in this thread.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, No there is trouble because some people cannot concive that while they might see 100 ducks flying overhead they can only shoot at few. More shooters will hit more ducks but they also might shoot the same duck.

quote:

Does anyone really suppose that a TF with 50+ transports could be destroyed in less then 8 hours?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, No there is trouble because some people cannot concive that while they might see 100 ducks flying overhead they can only shoot at few. More shooters will hit more ducks but they also might shoot the same duck.

It's not simply how many do I see. It's how many can I sink before moving to the next target. The target on the other hand is going in every direction. Once you get the first one you can't get all the rest. You might get another. And when this round of combat is done the battle is not over unless you say it is over and leave the area. If you want to pursue the next orders phase is the time to decide. Unless before the combat you had told the leader to retire in which case he has save movement that he might have used killing ships to leave the hex.

Does anyone really suppose that a TF with 50+ transports could be destroyed in less then 8 hours?