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Doolittle Raid, Yamamoto assasination, and other special ops

 
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Doolittle Raid, Yamamoto assasination, and other specia... - 7/10/2001 3:56:00 AM   
Dan in Toledo

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 7/5/2001
From: Toledo,oh
Status: offline 		Will it be possible to replicate special opps like: 1. the Doolittle raid 2. the Yamamoto assasination by the P-38s 3. the simple act of hiding the eastern fleet at their secret base at addu atoll in the maldives 4. the Chindits 5. midget submarines in pearl harbor 6. the attempt by the japs to replicate pearl harbor with floatplanes from the rendevous point of the island of french frigate shoals (this attempt was thwarted due to code breaking) 7. the japs use of floatplanes to bomb the pacific NW forests and other similar attempts 8. the attempt by the germans to reenforce the japanese after the german surrender by ordering a uboar with 10 Me-262s in crates and 1000lbs of uranium on board (this attempt was thrwated because the uboat captain surrendered instead) 9. using the Yamato as a giant kamikaze to beach itself on okinawa and be used as a beach battery 10. using Ozawa as a decoy and pulling off halsey's 3rd fleet to cape engano 11. richard sorge's spy ring in tokyo 12. the communists: pacwar only deals with chang and the nationalists 13. the invasion of manchuria by the soviets? 14. the possible "northern option" explored by the japs (they chose the "southern option" against the british, dutch, americans, etc...) 15. the use of poison gas by the japs against the chinese 16. the public discontent caused by ghandi in india 17. ho chi minh's activities in indochina 18. australian coastwatchers in the solomon islands 19. filipino guerrila activites 20. admiral koga's plane crashing due to a storm, thus depriving the combined fleet of its leader 21. the first carrier strike force twice transferring its pilots and planes to land air bases during the solomon campaign 22. nagumo's utter stupidity at midway 23. jap shelling of a california oil refinery in 12/41 24. possible jap attack on the panama canal that, if successful, could have greatly hindered the movement of the fleet these are just ideas does anyone have any thoughts????

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- 7/13/2001 8:47:00 PM   
Dan in Toledo

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 7/5/2001
From: Toledo,oh
Status: offline 		aw come on guys? these are just ideas I had I think these are interesting facets of the Pacific War. Any thoughts on how to include them in a game?

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Post #: 2
- 7/13/2001 10:35:00 PM   
Jo van der Pluym


Posts: 834
Joined: 10/28/2000
From: Valkenburg Lb, Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Dan in Toledo: aw come on guys? these are just ideas I had I think these are interesting facets of the Pacific War. Any thoughts on how to include them in a game?
Here some other ideas 1. Airborne Assaults/Transport 2. Raids 3. Coastal Artillery 4. Junks 5. Special Forces 6. German subs and Raiders 7. Godzilla ;-)

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Greetings from the Netherlands

Jo van der Pluym
CrazyDutch

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Post #: 3
- 7/13/2001 11:31:00 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		Your list is impressive, but it's too long for me to go through in detail. A few of these items are already covered in Uncommon Valor and will also be in WitP. Many of them could be included, but probably won't simply because the time to put them in will take too long compared to their actual impact on the war. At this point I can't give you a difinitive list of which ones Gary is going to deal with, but I do know we have paratroopers, air transport and coast watchers (and probably other things on your list as well). Joel

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All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to Dan in Toledo)
Post #: 4
- 7/20/2001 9:26:00 AM   
Chiteng

 

Posts: 7666
Joined: 2/20/2001
From: Raleigh,nc,usa
Status: offline 		Actually, It is my opinion that Yamamoto commited suicide. It is well known that he knew that the code with which he sent his itinerary to the naval bases was compromised. It is my opinion that he knew that after Midway, and with the loss of Guadalcanal he simply didnt wish to see the end. Just a comment.

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“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”

Voltaire

'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'

French Priest

"Statistic

(in reply to Dan in Toledo)
Post #: 5
- 7/20/2001 2:15:00 PM   
Ringbolt

 

Posts: 53
Joined: 6/15/2001
From: Pensacola, Fl
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Chiteng: Actually, It is my opinion that Yamamoto commited suicide.
Suicide is a little strong, but there is no doubt that Yamamoto was very fatalistic about his country's and his personal future, much as Patton was. He saw the writing on the wall FAR before anyone else on either side. I would say that he was careless where others would not have, knowing the end was as good as decided. Ringbolt

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LtCom: "Sgt. Lee, is that a Navy Cross I see you wearing?" Sgt. Lee: "No Sir, it's three."

(in reply to Dan in Toledo)
Post #: 6
- 7/24/2001 3:55:00 AM   
Ranger-75


Posts: 610
Joined: 6/29/2001
From: Giant sand box
Status: offline 		Shore Batteries (coastal artillery) should be in the new game. 2 IJN destroyers went down in the first attempt at Wake, and the IJN never even attempted to bombard Singapore, because of the shore batteries. They were only on certain bases, and should be programmable as non-movable ships with armor, durability and gun ratings and would be repaired in the same manner as ships (port and shipyard repair points) They should be hard to destroy, but not impossible and they should be able to force a 2 round surface action on any enemy TFs that enter the hex. That will kep the Japanese from bombarding singapore daily which wat not historical and happens every time when I play PW as the Allies.

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Still playing PacWar (but no so much anymore)...

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Post #: 7
- 7/24/2001 6:43:00 AM   
Ringbolt

 

Posts: 53
Joined: 6/15/2001
From: Pensacola, Fl
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Mike Santos: Shore Batteries (coastal artillery) should be in the new game. 2 IJN destroyers went down in the first attempt at Wake,
Not only that, but Wake's defence battalion only had 5" guns, plenty deadly against DD's and unarmored ships. The 14" guns at Singapore, and whatever the big guns were at Bataan, should make it suicidal to take most any ship into range of them. One of the most annoying things about Pacwar was watching an amphibious fleet sail right up to singapore and unload. Ringbolt

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LtCom: "Sgt. Lee, is that a Navy Cross I see you wearing?" Sgt. Lee: "No Sir, it's three."

(in reply to Dan in Toledo)
Post #: 8
- 7/24/2001 8:03:00 AM   
gators

 

Posts: 106
Joined: 5/16/2001
Status: offline 		Chiteng I would love to see anything like a source you base your opinion on; I'm familiar with Yamamoto's prediction about running wild for six months, and then the deluge of US production would begin. I think suicide is a very strong opinion. I'd also love to know how Y knew the code was compromised. Sources please.

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"It ain't the gun, Sonny. It's the operator" Bob the Nailer

(in reply to Dan in Toledo)
Post #: 9
- 7/24/2001 7:17:00 PM   
Dan in Toledo

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 7/5/2001
From: Toledo,oh
Status: offline 		I wholeheartedly agree about the shore batteries. Any ship attempting to bombard Bataan, Singapore, Truk, Wake, Oahu and a few others would have been in for a rude surprise. All had some deadly guns on them. Mine fields should also be allowed. Many, many ships were sunk due to mines: more Jap than allied. The Amagiri (the DD that sunk pt109) hit a mine in the east indies and sank. B-29s would fly off the coast of japan and drop mines. Blackett strait of new georgia was heavily mined. These are just examples. Oh yeah: Yamamoto did not committ suicide!! Thats rediculous!!

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Post #: 10
- 7/25/2001 11:14:00 AM   
Ringbolt

 

Posts: 53
Joined: 6/15/2001
From: Pensacola, Fl
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Dan in Toledo: I wholeheartedly agree about the shore batteries. Any ship attempting to bombard Bataan, Singapore, Truk, Wake, Oahu and a few others would have been in for a rude surprise. All had some deadly guns on them.
Also, I dont know about any other cities on the west coast, but I have been to the forts in LA where coastal artillery were placed in WWII. They were also 14" I think, and because of their height and construction, they seemed pretty well indestructable from naval guns. Ringbolt

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LtCom: "Sgt. Lee, is that a Navy Cross I see you wearing?" Sgt. Lee: "No Sir, it's three."

(in reply to Dan in Toledo)
Post #: 11
- 7/25/2001 12:53:00 PM   
Chiteng

 

Posts: 7666
Joined: 2/20/2001
From: Raleigh,nc,usa
Status: offline 		Freyburg, Did I list a source? Your responce implies you didnt read my post. It CLEARLY lables the ENTIRE post as MY OPINION. As such it is no more than that, and no defence is needed since I am NOT defending my thesis with YOU in the audience. I got my degree (in history) in 1972 and do NOT feel the need to go thru it again. If you are saying that it is unsupported and that you disagree, that is fine. Do THAT. But then be prepared to see ANY assertion I dont like, that is equally unsupported dismissed with this post as reference. The one thing I have learned about arguing history is that no amount of reference will convince anyone who doesnt wish to recognize it. It is like asking if Churchill used the Canadians at Dieppe because he knew they would be hammered, and didnt want 'English' troops to suffer. It is like asking if Ney had not been commanding the right wing at Waterloo and instead Davout, would Napoleon have won? Such questions invite debate, generating heat, and very little light. If you are saying (apparently) that Yamamoto was NOT aware that his code was broken, I have no intention of running down Book X just so that you can counter w Book Y. The evidence is there for anyone w serious intrest. The man is dead and ONLY he knows why he did whatever.

_____________________________

“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”

Voltaire

'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'

French Priest

"Statistic

(in reply to Dan in Toledo)
Post #: 12
- 7/26/2001 2:00:00 AM   
Doug Olenick

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 9/26/2000
From: ny
Status: offline 		Think about this. The Normandy Coast was covered with German heavy artillery, not 14-inchers but big, and it failed to do any damage to the larger ships offshore sinking only a few destroyers. Same goes for the French coastal batteries defending North Africa. They fired a lot, but had no impact on the landings. It is my opinion, lets make that clear!!, that if the Japanese wished they could have forced their way past the island forts off Batann and Corregidor. Same holds true for Singapore. The fact that they decided to avoid these guns had more to do with it being easier to take Singapore from the land side. As for the Philipines. Once the main islands were captured there was no need to directly attack the forts, they would fall in time.

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Post #: 13
- 7/26/2001 6:22:00 PM   
gators

 

Posts: 106
Joined: 5/16/2001
Status: offline 		Chiteng I was trying to undersand what your opinion was based on. When I got my history degree even professors who gave opinions would explain why, with sources if asked, they held that opinion. Don't you believe that if the Japanese were wise to the fact that we were reading their mail that they would have changed their codes. I can't find any refernce that they did around the time of Y's death. :)

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"It ain't the gun, Sonny. It's the operator" Bob the Nailer

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Post #: 14
- 7/27/2001 12:25:00 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		We already have coast defense units in Uncommon Valor so you will see them in Pacific War. I've seen some small 5-6" guns chew up invasion convoys and destroyer bombardment groups so you should be happy with the effects. Joel

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All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to Dan in Toledo)
Post #: 15
- 7/27/2001 2:01:00 AM   
Dan in Toledo

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 7/5/2001
From: Toledo,oh
Status: offline 		Joel: Great news on the shore batteries. That would make the game so much more realistic. I'd love to see Jap BBs come to bombard Manilla Bay or Singapore. They would be in for a rude surprise!!! What about minefields?

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Post #: 16
- 7/27/2001 2:50:00 AM   
madflava13


Posts: 1530
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Alexandria, VA
Status: offline 		Dan, Check out the product description page. I believe minelayers and mine sweepers are included...

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Post #: 17
- 7/28/2001 6:09:00 AM   
Chiteng

 

Posts: 7666
Joined: 2/20/2001
From: Raleigh,nc,usa
Status: offline 		Ok if you have a degree then you are aware of how subjective a debate on any aspect of historical event is. I have studied war for 30+ years now and you gain a 'feeling' for certain things. Like: Napoleon for all his genius was a jerk. Alexander wasnt alot better. Churchill was an unprincipled liar, who liked to play god. Edward II may have been a better monarch that his PR would suggest. Arthur may have actually been a Scot. The list of such 'impressions' is long. They are an amalgam of all study on the subject. I regret not being able to read Japanese. I wonder at times how much information is lost in translation. Yamamoto was hardly a fool. He knew that somehow the Midway operation had been compromised. He also knew the character of his enemy. After the failure of his 'air offensive' in the Soloman Islands and New Georgia he knew he could not win. There is a book(biography?)I would have to really dig, in any case, it is an 'impression' that makes me feel he knew exactly what he was doing when he sent his itinerary. He could not have known exactly what the result would be NO. But he could have known there would be one. It is like asking if Lord Nelson really loved his wife. You just get the impression he didnt.

_____________________________

“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”

Voltaire

'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'

French Priest

"Statistic

(in reply to Dan in Toledo)
Post #: 18
- 7/28/2001 8:13:00 AM   
gators

 

Posts: 106
Joined: 5/16/2001
Status: offline 		Chiteng Y. was so ambivalent about things. I'm sure some Japanese thought he spent too long at Harvard, especially for a Japanese navy commander. My "feeling" for the situation after your clarification (thanks) is that if he was intent on suicide; why not sepuke. I've studied a couple of languages and your concern about translations is well grounded. I didn't know you also had a history degree when I read your first post, I would have been more inclined to give your idea more opinion. I thought it was some newby half baked SWG. It's sort of like the Wingate deal anytime a charismatic leader dies mysteriously there is always speculation. thanks for the replies.

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"It ain't the gun, Sonny. It's the operator" Bob the Nailer

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Post #: 19
- 7/28/2001 11:18:00 PM   
D. Olenick

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 7/25/2001
Status: offline 		Chiteng, Studying history is hardly subjective. If you wish to make statements, Napolean was a jerk, for example explain why. If Yammamoto felt the Midway operation was compromised in any way why did he let his fleet fall into a trap? There is no indication in anything that I have ever read that mentions the Japanese suspected their codes were being broken. I would be interested in where you came up with the info. Do you have a source?

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Post #: 20
- 7/29/2001 1:19:00 AM   
Jo van der Pluym


Posts: 834
Joined: 10/28/2000
From: Valkenburg Lb, Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by gonzo: If Yammamoto felt the Midway operation was compromised in any way why did he let his fleet fall into a trap? There is no indication in anything that I have ever read that mentions the Japanese suspected their codes were being broken.
Gonzo I don't know or he know that the operation was compromised. But if he know, he has go on with the Operation, because it was his plan, and if he canceled it, he lost his face (honour), and that was for him and his country worst then lost the whole fleet.

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Greetings from the Netherlands

Jo van der Pluym
CrazyDutch

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Post #: 21
- 7/29/2001 1:32:00 AM   
Chiteng

 

Posts: 7666
Joined: 2/20/2001
From: Raleigh,nc,usa
Status: offline 		Gonzo, Realizing 'AFTER THE FACT' that an Operation was compromised hardly helps that operation. There are so many vignettes of Nappy being a jerk which one would you like to hear? How about him ramming the head of his most valuable subordinate into a wall? Repeatedly. And yet he could be magnaimous beyond reason and pardon the same man who tried to assassinate him 6 hours before. I am saying that: Yamamoto was shrewd enough in my opinion, to know that the Midway operation had been compromised. It is YOU who extend that past that simple statement. Do you think he could tell the IJN to change all its codes on a simple HUNCH? I suggest to you that he could NOT do that! Knowing/feeling something on instinct, is a far cry from being able to prove it. This is a man who could play 5 games of bridge at the same time and win them all. He could easily tell when someone was off the baseline of probability. The accounts of army men who left Guadalcanal to appeal to him for assistance in reinforcing/supplying the island: Have him sitting in his stateroom meditating and then agreeing to try again. Knowing full well that it would fail. Are you saying that had YOU been in his shoes, you would NOT have wondered what went wrong at Midway? Or would you blame it all on Nagumo? If you insist on straight-jacketing historical persona into ONLY what YOU feel is a substanciated model, I suggest to you that you will never get an accurate picture. Men are not simple puppets. All we get is brief windows into events usually abridged.

_____________________________

“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”

Voltaire

'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'

French Priest

"Statistic

(in reply to Dan in Toledo)
Post #: 22
- 7/29/2001 1:38:00 AM   
Chiteng

 

Posts: 7666
Joined: 2/20/2001
From: Raleigh,nc,usa
Status: offline 		Gonzo, Arguing history is the single most subjective enterprise I know of. Only the Stock Market comes close. If you dont see that well OK. God knows what you do when you read two contradictory accounts of the same event.

_____________________________

“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”

Voltaire

'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'

French Priest

"Statistic

(in reply to Dan in Toledo)
Post #: 23
- 7/29/2001 9:29:00 PM   
Gordon_freeman

 

Posts: 28
Joined: 5/14/2001
From: Deutschland
Status: offline 		Dear all, I read the replies on the shore batteries, but no one was mentioning that they should have a limited field of fire! This game is so big in scale, how shall you limit that batteries are only able to fire at sea targets? I don't know wether that works, but that is the major thing aboutthese batteries. The same thing, by the way, which stopped the Germans from using the "real big ones" at the Normandy. These guns were only able to fire in a specific field of fire. And don't call it stupid up until you checked why....

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Post #: 24
- 7/30/2001 10:03:00 PM   
Doug Olenick

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 9/26/2000
From: ny
Status: offline 		Jo, I really don't think even a Japanese commander, particularly the Western influenced, Yamamoto, would carry out an attack that he new to be compromised in order to "save face." A Japanese commander might be shamed by losing a battle and decide to end his life, but halting an attack that was doomed to failure because of a breach of security is not the same. Hell, if he were so worried about losing face he could have continued the battle with his surface fleet and tried to land troops on the island. There is a very good chance he would have succeeded since the US air groups were severely depleted and the US surface units terribly outnumbered. Chiteng, In your response to Gonzo's post: Overall I must say your post's are very harsh and not in the spirit that one normally finds here. Don't take everything so personally. On the main topic. Yamamoto certainly could have had all the codes changed on a whim. He was commander of the Combined Fleet and had the juice to accomplish such a task. Since ommunications security is THE most important facet of warfare, he would have taken it seriously and fixed the problem. If there was any chance the codes were compromised they would have quickly been altered. (It's not as if JN-25 was the only code the Japanese had switching was simple as was proven by the switch made just before the battle commenced.) As far as history being subjective I have no idea what you mean. -- History is not subjective. People's interpretations of events might be, such as the Japanese rewriting their history books to place that country in a better light, but the events themselves are pretty straightforward. Even more so when discussing recent historical events like WWII because the historical record is so complete. We know what happened and where and for the most part the why is also understood. Whether or not certain decisions were good or bad may be endlessly argued, but as far as the events themselves that is pretty black and white.

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Post #: 25
- 7/30/2001 10:43:00 PM   
madflava13


Posts: 1530
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Alexandria, VA
Status: offline 		Skeets, Just a couple quick comments with regard to your post. One, just an FYI, the Naval War College played out several war games with the assumption that Yamamoto pushed ahead with his surface assets and invaded Midway. I don't know the exact numbers, but something like 3 out of 4 games showed the Japanese taking the Island and the US losing a lot of ships... Secondly, I understand your point about communications security, and I agree the japanese would have changed the codes, but I personally believe logisitics win wars, not comm security. Just a personal opinion, but one I believe is supported in many circles. Feel free to disagree or comment. Chris Parisi

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"The Paraguayan Air Force's request for spraying subsidies was not as Paraguayan as it were..."

(in reply to Dan in Toledo)
Post #: 26
- 7/30/2001 11:19:00 PM   
Chiteng

 

Posts: 7666
Joined: 2/20/2001
From: Raleigh,nc,usa
Status: offline 		Skeets, So you are saying that WWII and its decisions were black and white? Sorry but I must disagree. Can you tell me who the Rote Kapella was? Can you tell me who Lucy was? Can you tell me if Dulles was guilty of even half the crap he is accused of? Can you tell me if the US president delibretly sacrificed the Pacific Fleet? (Something that Kimmel believed btw) Can you tell me if Churchill delibretly fed false information to the Germans about where the V-1(s) were landing to get the Germans to mis-direct them into falling short (and incidently of the lower classes) No you cant, no one can. These are issues of imponderability. Let alone delibrete cover-ups. For example: I feel Nixon knew ahead of time and authorized the Watergate breakin. To say that in public where I live, is to provoke an argument. People change the historical record to suit their intrests. I trust nothing. I read quite a bit. I will form my OWN opinion thank you. For Yamamoto to change the codes 'ON A WHIM' would have people asking him,(just like you are now)why? Sure and CNO he could FORCE the issue, that isnt arguable, however there would be a cost to doing that. I never said that he knew AHEAD of time the Midway operation was compromised. I said that I felt that he knew it HAD BEEN. It doesnt take much insight to know when you have failed your objective. After action analysis was a forte of Yamamoto. I suggest that if you are willing to accept the 'historical record' you must be very confused when trying to reconcile Soviet accounts with German.

_____________________________

“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”

Voltaire

'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'

French Priest

"Statistic

(in reply to Dan in Toledo)
Post #: 27
- 7/31/2001 2:05:00 AM   
Doug Olenick

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 9/26/2000
From: ny
Status: offline 		Chiteng, Your last post proved my point about your attitude in here and I will no longer correspond with you.

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Post #: 28
- 7/31/2001 2:09:00 AM   
Doug Olenick

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 9/26/2000
From: ny
Status: offline 		Mad, I also read about the Naval War College gaming out that Midway scenario, but because it was in Tom Clancy's Hunt For Red October, which, of course, is a novel I was not 100% sure it was true. While I trust most of what is said in his books as the truth, I was not sure about that topic. Thanks for confirming it. And yes logistics wins wars, but if the enemy knows where you supply convoys are you are in deep trouble.

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Post #: 29
- 7/31/2001 2:11:00 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		Coast Defense units shoot at naval units but I don't think they have much if any impact on land combat in the hex so I think we have your concern covered. Joel

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to Dan in Toledo)
Post #: 30
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