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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> MK 1 16" guns

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MK 1 16" guns - 9/9/2004 4:39:21 PM

Hipper

Posts: 254
Joined: 6/15/2004
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one very small point

All scenario's

the mk 1 16" gun given to Nelson an Rodney (RN BB's) is a copy of the MK 1 16" gun given to some early us BB's while I can't comment on range penetration issues, I dont think the Nelson & Rodney had the slow 1 RPM rate of fire as the early US BB's

cheers

_____________________________

"Gefechtwendung nach Steuerbord"

(in reply to Tankerace)

Post #: 241

RE: B-17 Endurance - 9/9/2004 5:04:22 PM

SpitfireIX

Posts: 264
Joined: 1/9/2003
From: Fort Wayne IN USA
Status: offline

Scenario 15 1.21

DD Ingraham (Sumner class) has a delay of 441015, but is shown as sunk on 420822. In fact, it was the previous Ingraham (Gleaves class) that was sunk on that date in the Atlantic. I'm guessing that having a sunk date earlier than a ship's delay prevents it from ever arriving.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/444.htm

< Message edited by SpitfireIX -- 9/9/2004 10:05:48 AM >

_____________________________

"I know Japanese. He is very bad. And tricky. But we Americans too smart. We catch him and give him hell."

--Benny Sablan, crewman, USS Enterprise 12/7/41

(in reply to Tankerace)

Post #: 242

BB Yamomto is late - 9/10/2004 10:20:21 AM

matchwood

Posts: 71
Joined: 9/9/2004
Status: offline

The Yamomoto is drawing construction resources for months after it was actually finished. By the start of 1942 it seemed to more acurately fit the shakedown cruise which is modeled in the game so there is no need to keep drawing resources.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/yamato.htm

16 December 1941:
Completed. Commissioned in the IJN as the YAMATO. Captain (later Vice Admiral) Takayanagi, Gihachi (former CO of ISE) is the Commanding Officer. The YAMATO is assigned to the Combined Fleet's BatDiv 1 with the NAGATO and the MUTSU at Hashirajima. The YAMATO is home-ported in the Kure Naval District.

March 1942:
Training and gunnery practice in the Inland Sea.

(in reply to Hipper)

Post #: 243

Hong Kong garrison 1941 - 9/10/2004 5:25:13 PM

Caranorn

Posts: 424
Joined: 8/31/2001
From: Luxembourg
Status: offline

I recommend the Hong Kong garrison be portrayed in the game historically.

1) Hong Kong Brigade under Brigadier General J.K. Lawson (not currently included, he died on december 19th during the battle);

the brigade had 3 battalions (2 Canadian, MG was British, the brigade was British too) in december 1941 (not sure how MG battalions have been portrayed in game).

2) Kowloon Brigade under BG C. Wallis;

this brigade also had three battalions, while a british unit the organisation was typical for the Indian army (2 Indian and 1 British battalion).

3) Hong Kong Fortress under Mahor General Maltby;

this represents both the Royal Engineer fortress troops and the Royal Artillery coast batteries. In december 1941 these consisted of 2+ Engineer Companies and 6 Artillery batteries (8x9.2", 11x6", 2x4.73 and 6x18pdr and 2x2pdr) and 2-3 AA batteries .

4) Hong Kong Base Force

this should include the HKVDC companies (6, many understrength), the HKVDC batteries (4x6" and 4x4") and the HK Chinese Regiment (only 284 men) in addition to the usual base force mix).

This is of course an abstraction of the forces present. But I think the current setup may in part be responsible for the rapid destruction of the garrison in WitP (my lastest game, scenario 16 , HK fell by december 9th or 10th).

The first two entries I derived directly from Joslen's, the otehr two to go faster from Dr. Niehorster's site (the relevant link is http://www.orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/017_britain/41-12-08/hong-kong.html ).

Marc aka Caran...

(in reply to Hipper)

Post #: 244

RE: Hong Kong garrison 1941 - 9/10/2004 6:48:15 PM

Caranorn

Posts: 424
Joined: 8/31/2001
From: Luxembourg
Status: offline

I did a bit more homework on this, I hope no one minds my adding a second post instead of just editing the first.

In game terms this would be:

Kowloon Brigade;
BG C. Wallis

2 Royal Scots (36 Br. Squads)
5/7 Rajput (36 In. Squads)
2/14 Punjab (36 In. Squads)
attach two bty.'s of HK RA

(total 36 Br. squads, 72 In. Squads (+ 8x4.5", 8x3.7") plus support)

Hong Kong Brigade;
BG J.K. Lawson

1 Middlesex (MG) (??? 36 Br. Squads)
Winnipeg Grenadiers (36 Can. squads)
Royal Rifles of canada (36 Can. squads)
attach 2 bty.'s of HK RA

(total 36xBr. squads, 72xCan. squads (+ 12x6") plus support)

Hong Kong Fortress;
MG C.M. Maltby

22 Fortress Coy. RE (9 Eng.)
40 Fortress Coy. RE (9 Eng.)
8 Coast RA (5x9.2", 4x6")
12 Coast RA (3x9.2", 6x6")
965 bty. RA (1x6", 2x4.7", 6x18pdr., 4x2pdr.)
1 Hong Kong RA (8x3.7", 8x4.5", 12x6" (how., not CD)) (I recommend detach to brigades)
5 LAA RA (?x?AA, ?x?AAMG)

(total 18xEng., 8x9.2"CD, 11x6"CD, (12x6" how. (if not in oob, 5.5"?), 8x4.5", 8x3.7",) 6x18pdr., ?x?AA, ?x?AAMG, and supports)

Hong Kong Base Force
???

Hong Kong Chinese Rgt. (~9 CW squads)
Hong Kong Volunteer Def. Rgt. (~27 CW squads, 4x6", 4x4", ?x?AAMG)

(total 36x CW squads, 4x6"CD, 4x4"CD, ?x?AAMG, plus the usual mix of base force units)

To make the two brigades more or less standard British/Indian brigades I'd attach the Mountain and Medium artillery brigades from HK RA which is reflected in those two unit's total).

Not only would this 4 unit OOB be more realistic, it would also correctly reflect the troop strength at Hong Kong (currently ~22 Infantry squads are missing, 10 18pdr. too many exist, 13 6" CD guns are missing, 12 6" howizers are missing etc.).

Marc aka Caran...

(in reply to Caranorn)

Post #: 245

RE: Hong Kong garrison 1941 - 9/10/2004 10:07:16 PM

SpitfireIX

Posts: 264
Joined: 1/9/2003
From: Fort Wayne IN USA
Status: offline

Scenario 15 version 1.21

US DDs Dunlap and Fanning should be a separate class (Mahan Group 2 or something to that effect). They had gun houses on their forward 5"/38s.

http://www.domeisland.com/goldplater/ussdunlap.html

_____________________________

"I know Japanese. He is very bad. And tricky. But we Americans too smart. We catch him and give him hell."

--Benny Sablan, crewman, USS Enterprise 12/7/41

(in reply to Caranorn)

Post #: 246

RE: Hong Kong garrison 1941 - 9/10/2004 10:25:41 PM

SpitfireIX

Posts: 264
Joined: 1/9/2003
From: Fort Wayne IN USA
Status: offline

Scenario 15 version 1.21

I'm not sure how to quantify this, but California, Maryland, and Lexington classes should have improved maneuverability due to their turboelectric propulsion.

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:UZMR6VfxdKoJ:www.warships1.com/index_tech/tech-038.htm turboelectric lexington maryland california&hl=en&lr=lang_en

_____________________________

"I know Japanese. He is very bad. And tricky. But we Americans too smart. We catch him and give him hell."

--Benny Sablan, crewman, USS Enterprise 12/7/41

(in reply to SpitfireIX)

Post #: 247

RE: Hong Kong garrison 1941 - 9/11/2004 3:20:33 AM

Montbrun

Posts: 1498
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Status: offline

To add to Caranorn's post - some OOB and TOE info on the Hong Kong Garrison:

China Command

HQ, Hong Kong Fortress
HQ Company
40th Fortress Company, RE (227)
965th Defense Battery, RA � 1 x 6� Naval Gun, 2 x 4.7� Gun, 6 x 18 pdr. Howitzer,
4 x 2 pdr. Gun
5th HAA Regiment, RA � 12 x 3� AA Gun, 4 x 3.7� AA Gun, 6 x 40mm AA Gun
Hong Kong Company, RCS
Hong Kong Mule Corps, RIACS
12th Hong Kong Company, RASC
Hong Kong Company, RAOC
27th Hong Kong Company, RAMC
Bomb Disposal Platoon

Hong Kong Infantry Brigade (Island)
HQ Company
1st Battalion, Middlesex Regiment (MG) (764)
Winnipeg Grenadiers (911)
Royal Rifles of Canada (1004)
1st Hong Kong Medium Regiment, Hong Kong Volunteer Defense Corps
HQ Battery
1 Troop / 1st Mountain Battery, HKVDC � 4 x 3.7� Pack Howitzer
3rd Medium Battery, HKVDC � 4 x 6� Howitzer
4th Medium Battery, HKVDC � 4 x 6� Howitzer

Kowloon Infantry Brigade (Mainland)
HQ Company
22nd Fortress Company, RE (220) (Attached from Fortress Command)
Field Company, HKVDC (123) (Attached from Fortress Command)
2nd Battalion, Royal Scots Regiment (769)
5th Battalion, 7th Rajput Regiment (Indian Army) (892)
2nd Battalion, 14th Rajput Regiment (Indian Army) (947)
Hong Kong Chinese Regiment � (284) (Attached from Fortress Command)
2nd (Scottish) Company (98) (Attached from Fortress Command)
HKVDC Armored Car Platoon (29) � Locally made 4 x 2 light armored cars
(The following attached from 1st Hong Kong Medium Regiment)
1 Troop / 1st Mountain Battery, HKVDC � 4 x 4.5� Howitzer
2nd Mountain Battery, HKVDC � 4 x 3.7� Pack Howitzer, 4 x 4.5� Howitzer
25th Medium Battery, HKVDC � 4 x 6� Howitzer

Hong Kong Volunteer Defense Corps (1385 Total)
HQ Company
Ordinance, Signals, Transport & Supply, Medical Detachments
1st Company (104)
3rd (Eurasian) Company (114)
4th (Chinese) Company (78)
5th (Portugese) Company (98)
6th (Portugese) MG Company (96)
7th Company (41)
Stanley Platoon (29)
Hughes Group (72)
�Z� Force (14)

Hong Kong Coastal Defenses - Commander, RA
HQ Battery
Eastern Fire Command
8th Coast Regiment, RA
12th Coast Battery, RA � 3 x 9.2� Gun
30th Coast Battery, RA � 2 x 9.2� Gun
36th Coast Battery, RA � 4 x 6� Turret-Mounted Naval Gun
1st Coast Battery, HKVDC � 2 x 4� Naval Gun
2nd Coast Battery, HKVDC � 2 x 6� Naval Gun
4th Coast Battery, HKVDC � 2 x 6� Turret-Mounted Naval Gun
Western Fire Command
12th Coast Regiment, RA
24th Coast Battery, RA � 3 x 9.2� Gun
26th Coast Battery, RA � 3 x 6� Turret-Mounted Naval Gun, 2 x 60 pdr. Gun
3rd Coast Battery, HKVDC � 2 x 4� Naval Gun

Typical Organization for British Infantry Battalion in the Far East � 1939-1941
HQ Company
Mortar Platoon � (not present)
Carrier Platoon � (not present)
AA Platoon � (not present)
Pioneer Platoon � (not present)
Infantry Company
Company HQ
Infantry Platoon � 4 x Squads, 1 x .303� Lewis LMG, 1 x .55� Boys ATR, 1 x 2� Mortar
Infantry Platoon � 4 x Squads, 1 x .303� Lewis LMG, 1 x .55� Boys ATR, 1 x 2� Mortar
Infantry Platoon � 4 x Squads, 1 x .303� Lewis LMG, 1 x .55� Boys ATR, 1 x 2� Mortar
Infantry Company
Company HQ
Infantry Platoon � 4 x Squads, 1 x .303� Lewis LMG, 1 x .55� Boys ATR, 1 x 2� Mortar
Infantry Platoon � 4 x Squads, 1 x .303� Lewis LMG, 1 x .55� Boys ATR, 1 x 2� Mortar
Infantry Platoon � 4 x Squads, 1 x .303� Lewis LMG, 1 x .55� Boys ATR, 1 x 2� Mortar
Infantry Company
Company HQ
Infantry Platoon � 4 x Squads, 1 x .303� Lewis LMG, 1 x .55� Boys ATR, 1 x 2� Mortar
Infantry Platoon � 4 x Squads, 1 x .303� Lewis LMG, 1 x .55� Boys ATR, 1 x 2� Mortar
Infantry Platoon � 4 x Squads, 1 x .303� Lewis LMG, 1 x .55� Boys ATR, 1 x 2� Mortar
Infantry Company
Company HQ
Infantry Platoon � 4 x Squads, 1 x .303� Lewis LMG, 1 x .55� Boys ATR, 1 x 2� Mortar
Infantry Platoon � 4 x Squads, 1 x .303� Lewis LMG, 1 x .55� Boys ATR, 1 x 2� Mortar
Infantry Platoon � 4 x Squads, 1 x .303� Lewis LMG, 1 x .55� Boys ATR, 1 x 2� Mortar
OR
MG Company
MG Platoon � 4 x Vickers MMG
MG Platoon � 4 x Vickers MMG
MG Platoon � 4 x Vickers MMG

TOTAL � 48 x Squads, 12 x 2� Mortar, 12 x .303� Lewis LMG, 12 x .55� Boys ATR
Or
TOTAL - 36 x Squads, 12 x Vickers MMG, 9 x 2� Mortar, 9 x .303� Lewis LMG, 9 x .55� Boys ATR

NOTE: There was a severe shortage of Boys ATR and 2� Mortars in the Far East at this time.

Typical Organization for British MG Battalion � 1939-1941
HQ Company
AA Platoon � 4 x Twin Bren AA MG, 1 x .55� Boys ATR
MG Company
Company HQ
MG Platoon � 4 x Vickers MMG, 1 x .55� Boys ATR
MG Platoon � 4 x Vickers MMG, 1 x .55� Boys ATR
MG Platoon � 4 x Vickers MMG, 1 x .55� Boys ATR
MG Company
Company HQ
MG Platoon � 4 x Vickers MMG, 1 x .55� Boys ATR
MG Platoon � 4 x Vickers MMG, 1 x .55� Boys ATR
MG Platoon � 4 x Vickers MMG, 1 x .55� Boys ATR
MG Company
Company HQ
MG Platoon � 4 x Vickers MMG, 1 x .55� Boys ATR
MG Platoon � 4 x Vickers MMG, 1 x .55� Boys ATR
MG Platoon � 4 x Vickers MMG, 1 x .55� Boys ATR
MG Company
Company HQ
MG Platoon � 4 x Vickers MMG, 1 x .55� Boys ATR
MG Platoon � 4 x Vickers MMG, 1 x .55� Boys ATR
MG Platoon � 4 x Vickers MMG, 1 x .55� Boys ATR

TOTAL - 48 x Vickers MMG, 4 x Twin Bren AA MG, 13 x .55" Boys ATR

NOTE: Fourth Company not always present, and there was a severe shortage of Boys ATR in the Far East at this time.

Sources:

Bellis, Malcolm A., �Regiments of the British Army 1939-1945 (Armour & Infantry),� Military Press International, London, 1994.

Bellis, Malcolm A., �Regiments of the British Army 1939-1945 (Artillery),� Military Press International, London, 1995.

Bevis, Mark, �British and Commonwealth Armies 1939-1943,� Helion & Company, Ltd., West Midlands, 2001

Hughes, David, et al, �The British Armies in World War Two � An Organisational History � Volume Two
Polish, Australian, Canadian, South African and Indian Armoured and Cavalry Division � British Infantry Divisions,� The Nafziger Collection, Inc., West Chester, OH, 2000.

Ryan, David A., et al, �The British Armies in World War Two � An Organisational History � Supplement Two � Orders of Battle 1941 to 1942,� The Nafziger Collection, Inc., West Chester, OH, 2002.

I have not had time to check this info against some of my other sources...

Thanks,

Brad

< Message edited by Brad Hunter -- 9/11/2004 4:22:04 AM >

(in reply to Caranorn)

Post #: 248

RE: OOB Comments - 9/11/2004 10:22:05 PM

juliet7bravo

Posts: 894
Joined: 5/30/2001
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Soerabaia (Dutch Coastal Defense)
Soerabaia-class pre-dreadnought
6500 tons
2 x 28 cm L/42 (11" guns, single turrets, 1 forward, 1 aft)
4 x 15 cm L/40
10 x 75 mm L/55 semi-automatic
2 x 37 mm
6 x 40 mm
2 x .50
15cm and 75mm guns (some or all) possibly removed in 1941. Pictures of wreck still show secondary weapons in place however.

Belt 100 - 150 mm
Deck 50 mm
Conning Tower 250 mm
Barbettes 250 mm

Range 5100 nm @ 8 knots
2100 nm @ 16 knots (half of boilers removed '40-'41, top speed probably 12 kt. with range of 4000 nm)

Used by Dutch as late as December '41 to transport troops/equipment. Sank by air attack in Soerabja Harbor Feb '42. Raised by IJN. Would be useful as slow convoy AA / anti AMC escort and for shore bombardment early war. Little else with big guns available in NEI/Oz for the Allies this period. Low value, but useful, and no loss if sunk. Could be upgraded at some point with radar and improved AA and still be useful in small scale amphibious operations mid-late war.

(in reply to Montbrun)

Post #: 249

RE: OOB Comments - 9/11/2004 11:54:04 PM

Ron Saueracker

Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliet7bravo

Soerabaia (Dutch Coastal Defense)
Soerabaia-class pre-dreadnought
6500 tons
2 x 28 cm L/42 (11" guns, single turrets, 1 forward, 1 aft)
4 x 15 cm L/40
10 x 75 mm L/55 semi-automatic
2 x 37 mm
6 x 40 mm
2 x .50
15cm and 75mm guns (some or all) possibly removed in 1941. Pictures of wreck still show secondary weapons in place however.

Belt 100 - 150 mm
Deck 50 mm
Conning Tower 250 mm
Barbettes 250 mm

Range 5100 nm @ 8 knots
2100 nm @ 16 knots (half of boilers removed '40-'41, top speed probably 12 kt. with range of 4000 nm)

Used by Dutch as late as December '41 to transport troops/equipment. Sank by air attack in Soerabja Harbor Feb '42. Raised by IJN. Would be useful as slow convoy AA / anti AMC escort and for shore bombardment early war. Little else with big guns available in NEI/Oz for the Allies this period. Low value, but useful, and no loss if sunk. Could be upgraded at some point with radar and improved AA and still be useful in small scale amphibious operations mid-late war.

"No loss if sunk."

You really have no concern for the lives of sailors, do ya. No doubt players would send this old bucket to meet an IJN BB TF. It would be like sending a guy out into a demolition derby with a Pinto. What if all the sailors were babes?

I think this scow is the old De Zeven Provincien, which was involved in a very dangerous mutiny in the 1930s. Threatened to bombard a DEI port or something. Came very close to being sunk by Dutch Air Force.

< Message edited by Ron Saueracker -- 9/11/2004 4:56:47 PM >

_____________________________

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to juliet7bravo)

Post #: 250

RE: OOB Comments - 9/12/2004 12:48:11 AM

juliet7bravo

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Joined: 5/30/2001
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Yah...think it's pretty cool. Is the old De Zeven Provincien, lost name (famous name in Dutch navy I guess) when it was "dishonoured" by the mutiny. "Pre-dreadnaught" built just after the turn of the century for Gawds sake, still puttin around the islands showing the flag in '42. It's like a Dutch "Sand Pebbles"...probably by 1942 half the crew WAS Indonesian babes. Where some of the best looking wimmen in the world come from, LOL.

Clapped out old scow...but still useful enough to be included.

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)

Post #: 251

RE: OOB Comments - 9/12/2004 9:14:55 AM

juliet7bravo

Posts: 894
Joined: 5/30/2001
Status: offline

Don't think these are in the database, haven't made spread sheets yet. Important since these should get the load/unload bonuses. Shinshu Maru available at war start, Mayasan Maru arrives early enough to be useful to the IJN. Both should have an upgrade path adding additional AA at some point.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Shinshu Maru Class Landing Depot Ship

Shinshu Maru (Available 1935)
12,000 tons
19 knots / Endurance unknown
8 x 75mm AA guns
26 float planes (hangar, but no catapults). Doubt it carried both AC and landing craft simultaneously.
20 Daihatsu landing craft

Worlds first purpose built amphibious assault ship
Stern doors for launching LC's, side ports for loading/unloading tanks/heavy cargo
Sank by friendly fire at Java 01 March 42, raised/back in service sometime in '43. Sank by submarine Jan '45

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Mayasan Maru Class Landing Depot Ship

Mayasan Maru (Available December 1942)
Tamatsu Maru (Available January 1944)
12,000 tons
21 knots / Endurance unknown
6 x 75mm AA guns
20 Daihatsu landing craft
Stern doors for launching LC's

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Kibitsu Maru Class Landing Depot Ship

Kibitsu Maru (Available 29 December 1943)
Hyuga Maru (Available 15 January 1945)
Landing Depot Ship
12,000 tons
19 knots / Endurance unknown
8 x 75mm AA guns
(up to) 60 x 25mm AA
2 x mortars
13 Daihatsu landing craft
12 Toku landing craft
Stern doors for launching LC's

(in reply to juliet7bravo)

Post #: 252

RE: OOB Comments - 9/12/2004 8:25:01 PM

SpitfireIX

Posts: 264
Joined: 1/9/2003
From: Fort Wayne IN USA
Status: offline

Scenario 15, version 1.21

Yorktown Class 1943 upgrade

First of all, this upgrade should be available starting in 8/43. The Enterprise arrived at Bremerton on July 20, and entered drydock two days later. The upgrade and repairs of old battle damage required three months. The old battle damage was a minor issue, however--the overwhelming majority of the yard work involved the upgrade.

(See Chapter 15 of The Big E by Edward P. Stafford)

Fuel capacity was increased from 4270 tons to 4814 tons, according to Norman Friedman's U.S. Aircraft Carriers: An Illustrated Design History. However, her endurance should probably stay about the same, as her full-load diplacement increased from 25,484 tons to 29,882 tons. (thanks to Rich Matheson from cv6.org for looking this up for me, as I don't have any of Friedman's books (yet).)

Post-refit armament is somewhat problematic. This is my best guess, from looking at diagrams and photographs. There's a diagram at cv6.org, but the number of 20mm mounts shown doesn't agree with the number given. Stafford agrees that the total number post-refit was 50, and looking at photos from 1944 there are clearly more single 20s than are shown on the diagram.

My opinion, after looking at photos and comparing with the diagram:

Quad 40s: 2xForward, 2xStarboard, 2xPort, 1xAft

Twin 40s: 1xForward, 2xStarboard, 2xPort

Single 20s: 31xStarboard, 15xPort, 4xAft

I'm afraid I'm not familiar with exactly what the firing arcs given in the game are (although I can guess at some of them). The quad 40mm just aft of the island is tough to judge, because part of its arc is obstructed by the crane. I saw one photo that shows it appears to be mounted to fire starboard--there's not even a splinter shield on the port side.

< Message edited by SpitfireIX -- 9/12/2004 1:28:55 PM >

_____________________________

"I know Japanese. He is very bad. And tricky. But we Americans too smart. We catch him and give him hell."

--Benny Sablan, crewman, USS Enterprise 12/7/41

(in reply to juliet7bravo)

Post #: 253

RE: Hong Kong garrison 1941 - 9/13/2004 4:59:46 PM

strawbuk

Posts: 289
Joined: 4/30/2004
From: London via Glos
Status: offline

Brad and Caranorn

Excellent to see sources quoted. Spotted a few gaps in my collection!

Comments on 1. MGs et al 2. Artillery

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter

Infantry Platoon � 4 x Squads, 1 x .303� Lewis LMG, 1 x .55� Boys ATR, 1 x 2� Mortar

NOTE: There was a severe shortage of Boys ATR and 2� Mortars in the Far East at this time.

Typical Organization for British MG Battalion � 1939-1941

Brad

Note the lack of BRENS - later (by when do you think?) it would one Bren per section three per platoon. this is a BIG leap in firepower at the btn/bgd level and needs to be reflected in game. As Brad says you could probably halve at least the actual real numbers of mortars or MGs available to 'backwater' units

An aside - I have read that late war saw unofficial double issue of Brens ie two per section to deal with Banzai charges (as was done in Korea for similar reasons) but that may be a confusion with Korea.

Heavy MG companies - just and operational thought. The vickers MGs were nearly always tacticaly operated as small detachments to infantry battlaions/units. So on the scale of the game and if we want to have units equipped for operations not as 'in barracks', just add Vickers equally to relevant inf btns. What do with the 4.2 mortars? May be just add them to one of the relevant inf btns, as they would in reality be allocated to support the 'main push', and we just say that btn is the 'lead' force ('two up, bags of smoke...' as the short translation of the infantry manual had it)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Caranorn

1) I'm not sure why Indian army field artillery regiments (independent or in brigade groups or divisions) seem to be listed with 18 guns. When organised as 2 batteries they would logically have 16 guns, with 3 batetries 24. Unless of course the Indian units in the Pacific differed greatly from those in the Medditeranean (Joslen clearly states Indian unit's with 24 x 25 pdr.).

2) Again unless there was a significant difference between Europe and the Pacific, British style (British, Indian, ANZAC etc.) field artillery regiments should have only one type of guns (18pdr., 18/25pdr. (not sure how those were really called, probably not used in Asia anyhow) and 25pdr.). The 4.5" was not used in field regiments.

'Cause we have too many non-brits writing this and they think in 6 gun batteries...

But yes 8 guns; whether the Indian divs get two or three bateries is a another matter! This will effect in game firepower.

Have to disagree on the 4.5 HOWITZER as opposed to 4.5 GUN - the latter is long range counter battery support piece living in indepedant batteries/rgts allocated at Corps level, alongside 5.5s etc. As you say can't see them in Asia realy (nor 60pdrs, great for getting up the Burma road...

)

The 4.5 Howitzer is a 'light'/field weapon type that I understand was used alongside the 18pdr gun batteries. And possibly alongside 18/25pdrs (25pdr barrels on 18 pder carriage) for same reason - to provide high arc capabilty. They become redundant when Rgts get the proper 25pder gun/howitzer which can fire on all arcs used by most guns and howitzers. Besides accuracy/chrome does this matter in game? Point is that 4.5/18pdrs units can engage the range of targets as needed, as can 25pder units.

Excuse the explianations - not for you two who know much more than me I think but for others reading this.

< Message edited by strawbuk -- 9/13/2004 3:31:00 PM >

_____________________________

Twinkle twinkle PBY
Seeking Kido Bu-tai
Flying o' the sea so high
An ill-omen in the sky
Twinkle twinkle PBY
Pointing out who's next to fry

(in reply to Montbrun)

Post #: 254

RE: Hong Kong garrison 1941 - 9/14/2004 2:07:16 AM

tabpub

Posts: 1019
Joined: 8/10/2003
From: The Greater Chicagoland Area
Status: offline

Mainly out of curiousity I post this:

In Scenario 15 ver 1.21 it seems that the III Indian Corps Hq is in India; shouldn't it be in Malaya?

(in reply to strawbuk)

Post #: 255

RE: Hong Kong garrison 1941 - 9/14/2004 2:40:54 AM

Montbrun

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^^^ yup...

Brad

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Post #: 256

British and British style TOE - 9/16/2004 1:14:52 AM

Caranorn

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I started to compare WitP's OOB and TOE with historical ones a bit more. Here are my first conclusions concerning apparently missing equipment from the WitP TOE.

-----

Missing elements in British Infandry Division TOE:

39 x engineer squads (27 in three Field Companies RE, 30 in 9 infantry battalions and cavalry regiment)

24 x 3" mortars (60 x in 9 infantry battalions and cavalry regiment)

78 x 2 and 6 pdr AT (72 x 2pdr in 9 infantry battalions, 48 x 6 pdr in anti tank regiment, 6 x 6pdr in cavalry regiment)

6 pdr AT while in the OOB files, are not currently used (no buildrates and 2pdr update to 57mm (american) AT instead, this needs to be fixed

22 x Vickers AAMG (2) (40 x in 9 infantry battalions and cavalry regiment)

48 x 40 mm Bofors AA (the LAA regiment seems to be missing entirely)

4.5" how. should be used instead of 4.5" field gun (distribution should be 36 x 18 pdr and 18 x 4.5" how.), the 4.5" how. should also upgrade to 25 pdr (yes that means two 25 pdr entries for upgraded divisions)

MG battalions are entirely missing from TOE, that means 48 x Vickers MMG missing, as there is no such beast in the current WitP I have no idea how to represent this essential fire power

-----

I would no be astonished if divisions in Asia had fewer AT guns then those in the ETO or MTO. But the theoretical TOE is 72 x 2 pdr. and 54 x 6pdr (once the 17 pdr is issued that changes again, though I have serious doubts about the 17 pdr in Burma, that's one hell of a barrel to get up mountain trails:-).

In addition to the Twin AAMG's a large number of single (Bren I believe) AAMG also existed in the division. Of course many of these were mounted on vehicles used for other purpouses.

The LAA regiments are missing entirely (yes at times divisions used mixed LAA/AT regiments, but AA is still missing).

I think one reason for the differences between the current WitP TOE and those I find might have a game phylosophy origin. To me in a game like this, a unit's TOE should be it's maximal strength, which usually means using a relatively late war TOE.

Independant Brigades (actually Brigade Groups) should have 1/3rd of all the equipment of a division's TOE. This is not currently the case for all British style brigades.

I will create a new topic named British OOB and TOE in the main discussion area so we can British OOB and TOE issues like this one. Then only submitting finished conclusions in this thread.

Marc aka Caran...

(in reply to Montbrun)

Post #: 257

RE: British and British style TOE - 9/16/2004 1:52:42 PM

strawbuk

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Caranorn

4.5" how. should be used instead of 4.5" field gun (distribution should be 36 x 18 pdr and 18 x 4.5" how.), the 4.5" how. should also upgrade to 25 pdr (yes that means two 25 pdr entries for upgraded divisions)

MG battalions are entirely missing from TOE, that means 48 x Vickers MMG missing, as there is no such beast in the current WitP I have no idea how to represent this essential fire power

hmm - sure I read something similar just now two posts up ....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Caranorn

I will create a new topic named British OOB and TOE in the main discussion area so we can British OOB and TOE issues like this one. Then only submitting finished conclusions in this thread.

But can anyone else join in?

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(in reply to Caranorn)

Post #: 258

RE: British and British style TOE - 9/16/2004 2:10:45 PM

Montbrun

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quote:

But can anyone else join in?

- LOL

Brad

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Post #: 259

RE: OOB Comments - 9/22/2004 12:34:28 AM

mikemike

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Missing IJN APD class:

T1
built: T1- T21 entering service from May 1944

1800 tons
22 kts/Range 4700 nm @ 18 kts
2-5/40 F
15-25 mm/ increased to 25-25 mm + 5-13 mm from September 1944
42 DC
carried four Daihatsu barges or seven Type 2 amphibious tanks plus 250 tons of cargo

added is a scan of a line drawing of the type.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 260

RE: OOB Comments - 9/22/2004 12:47:07 AM

mikemike

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If we are talking about late war aircraft, there are several British types that should be included:
AVRO Lincoln enlarged successor to Lancaster, developed especially for Far East service, max. bomb load 18.000 pounds I think
Hawker Fury - fighter
de Havilland Hornet - two-engine single seat long-range fighter
Sea Hornet Mk. 20 - same as above for use on carriers, operated from HMS Ocean late in 1945 I think - just after VJ-Day
Sea Hornet Mk. 21 - Night fighter variant of Mk. 20
Seafire Mk. 21 - single-seat carrier fighter
Bristol Brigand - successor to Beaufighter - torpedo bomber with two 2550 hp Centaurus engines

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Post #: 261

RE: OOB Comments - 9/22/2004 9:01:04 PM

Jo van der Pluym

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From: Valkenburg Lb, Netherlands
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikemike

Missing IJN APD class:

T1
built: T1- T21 entering service from May 1944

1800 tons
22 kts/Range 4700 nm @ 18 kts
2-5/40 F
15-25 mm/ increased to 25-25 mm + 5-13 mm from September 1944
42 DC
carried four Daihatsu barges or seven Type 2 amphibious tanks plus 250 tons of cargo

added is a scan of a line drawing of the type.

On the following link are more Japanese Auxilairy vessels.

http://homepage2.nifty.com/nishidah/e/s_xt08.htm

And on the following link have you most of the vessels of the japanese Army and Navy

http://homepage2.nifty.com/nishidah/e/s_index.htm

< Message edited by Jo van der Pluym -- 9/22/2004 8:03:45 PM >

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Jo van der Pluym
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Dutch

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Post #: 262

RE: OOB Comments - 9/23/2004 8:11:46 AM

Tankerace

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The Mark VI 7.5inch gun used by the Hawkins class Heavy Cruisers is listed as being a 50 caliber weapon. In reality, it was a 45 caliber weapon.

Sources: Jane's Fighting Ships and www.navweaps.com.

< Message edited by Tankerace -- 9/23/2004 12:11:59 AM >

_____________________________

Designer of War Plan Orange
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Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

(in reply to Jo van der Pluym)

Post #: 263

RE: OOB Comments - 9/24/2004 5:51:20 AM

Williamb

Posts: 594
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Dayton Ohio
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MISSING US LEADERS

I went to the US militarys Medal of Honor Website.

Found some individuals that Id like to see in game.(some might be there havent checked, I know some are not there)

*BAUER, HAROLD WILLIAM

Rank and organization: Lieutenant Colonel, U.S. Marine Corps. . Citation: For extraordinary heroism and conspicuous courage as Squadron Commander of Marine Fighting Squadron 212 in the South Pacific Area during the period 10 May to 14 November 1942.

*BENNION, MERVYN SHARP

Rank and organization: Captain, U.S. Navy. As Commanding Officer of the U.S.S. West Virginia, after being mortally wounded, Capt. Bennion evidenced apparent concern only in fighting and saving his ship, and strongly protested against being carried from the bridge.

BONG, RICHARD 1. (Air Mission)

Rank and organization: Major, U.S. Army Air Corps. Place and date: Over Borneo and Leyte, 10 October to 15 November 1944.

BOYINGTON, GREGORY

Rank and organization: Major, U.S. Marine Corps Reserve, Marine Squadron 214. Place and date: Central Solomons area, from 12 September 1943 to 3 January 1944

BULKELEY, JOHN DUNCAN

Rank and organization: Lieutenant Commander, Commander of Motor Torpedo Boat Squadron 3, U.S. Navy. Place and date: Philippine waters, 7 December 1941 to 10 April 1942. Citation: For extraordinary heroism, distinguished service, and conspicuous gallantry above and beyond the call of duty as commander of Motor Torpedo Boat Squadron 3, in Philippine waters during the period 7 December 1941 to 10 April 1942. The remarkable achievement of Lt. Comdr. Bulkeley's command in damaging or destroying a notable number of Japanese enemy planes, surface combatant and merchant ships

CALLAGHAN, DANIEL JUDSON

Rank and organization: Rear Admiral, U.S. Navy. Citation: For extraordinary heroism and conspicuous intrepidity above and beyond the call of duty during action against enemy Japanese forces off Savo Island on the night of 12-13 November 1942.

CHAMBERS, JUSTICE M.

Rank and organization: Colonel. U.S. Marine Corps Reserve, 3rd Assault Battalion Landing Team. 25th Marines, 4th Marine Division. Place and date: On Iwo Jima, Volcano Islands. from 19 to 22 February 1945.

CHELI, RALPH (Air Mission)

Rank and organization: Major, U.S. Army Air Corps. Place and date: Near Wewak, New Guinea, 18 August 1943. 28 October 1943. Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity above and beyond the call of duty in action with the enemy. While Maj. Cheli was leading his squadron in a dive to attack the heavily defended Dagua Airdrome,

CROMWELL, JOHN PHILIP

Rank and organization: Captain, U.S. Navy. Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty as Commander of a Submarine Coordinated Attack Group with Flag in the U.S.S. Sculpin, during the 9th War Patrol of that vessel in enemy-controlled waters off Truk Island, 19 November 1943.

DAVIS, GEORGE FLEMING

Rank and organization: Commander, U.S. Navy. Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life and beyond the call of duty as Commanding Officer of the U.S.S. Walke engaged in a detached mission in support of minesweeping operations to clear the waters for entry of our heavy surface and amphibious forces preparatory to the invasion of Lingayen Gulf, Luzon, Philippine Islands, 6 January 1945.

DEALEY, SAMUEL DAVID

Rank and organization: Commander, U.S. Navy. Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty as Commanding Officer of the U.S.S. Harder during her 5th War Patrol in Japanese-controlled waters.

DEBLANC, JEFFERSON JOSEPH

Rank and Organization: Captain, U.S. Marine Corps Reserve, Marine Fighting Squadron 112. Place and date: Off Kolombangara Island in the Solomons group, 31 January 1943. Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty as leader of a section of 6 fighter planes in Marine Fighting Squadron 112, during aerial operations against enemy Japanese forces off Kolombangara Island in the Solomons group, 31 January 1943.

DOOLITTLE, JAMES H. (Air Mission)

Rank and organization: Brigadier General, U.S. Army. Air Corps.

EDSON, MERRITT AUSTIN

Rank and organization: Colonel, U.S. Marine Corps. Born: 25 April 1897, Rutland, Vt. Appointed from: Vermont. Other Navy awards: Navy Cross with Gold Star, Silver Star Medal, Legion of Merit with Gold Star. Citation: For extraordinary heroism and conspicuous intrepidity above and beyond the call of duty as Commanding Officer of the 1st Marine Raider Battalion, with Parachute Battalion attached, during action against enemy Japanese forces in the Solomon Islands

ELROD, HENRY TALMAGE

Rank and organization: Captain, U.S. Marine Corps. Born: 27 September 1905, Rebecca, Ga. Entered service at: Ashburn, Ga. Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty while attached to Marine Fighting Squadron 211, during action against enemy Japanese land, surface and aerial units at Wake Island, 8 to 23 December 1941. Engaging vastly superior forces of enemy bombers and warships on 9 and 12 December,

EVANS, ERNEST EDWIN

Rank and organization: Commander, U.S. Navy. Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty as commanding officer of the U.S.S. Johnston in action against major units of the enemy Japanese fleet during the battle off Samar on 25 October 1944.

FLEMING, RICHARD E.

Rank and organization: Captain, U.S. Marine Corps Reserve. Appointed from: Minnesota. Citation: For extraordinary heroism and conspicuous intrepidity above and beyond the call of duty as Flight Officer, Marine Scout Bombing Squadron 241, during action against enemy Japanese forces in the battle of Midway on 4 and 5 June 1942

FLUCKEY, EUGENE BENNETT

Rank and organization: Commander, U.S. Navy, Commanding U.S.S. Barb. Place and date: Along coast of China, 19 December 1944 to 15 February 1945 Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty as commanding officer of the U.S.S. Barb during her 11th war patrol along the east coast of China from 19 December 1944 to 15 February 1945

FOSS, JOSEPH JACOB

Rank and organization: Captain, U.S. Marine Corps Reserve, Marine Fighting Squadron 121, 1st Marine Aircraft Wing. Place and date: Over Guadalcanal, 9 October to 19 November 1942, 15 and 23 January 1943. Citation: For outstanding heroism and courage above and beyond the call of duty as executive officer of Marine Fighting Squadron 121, 1st Marine Aircraft Wing, at Guadalcanal

FUQUA, SAMUEL GLENN

Rank and organization: Captain, U.S. Navy, U.S.S. Arizona. Place and date: Pearl Harbor, Territory of Hawaii, 7 December 1941. Citation: For distinguished conduct in action, outstanding heroism, and utter disregard of his own safety above and beyond the call of duty during the attack on the Fleet in Pearl Harbor, by Japanese forces on 7 December 1941. Upon the commencement of the attack, Lt. Comdr. Fuqua rushed to the quarterdeck of the U.S.S. Arizona to which he was attached

And thats just A though F !!

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Post #: 264

RE: OOB Comments - 9/24/2004 6:52:48 AM

jcjordan

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Should the following squadrons be in the Scen 15 OOB since their parent FG is also in the OOB? Would it be better to represent these squadrons like the parent FG divided into A/B/C squadrons instead of by actual unit?

78th FS - 18th FG
3rd FS - 24th FG
21st FS - 35th FG
34th FS - 35th FG

(in reply to Williamb)

Post #: 265

RE: OOB Comments - 9/24/2004 7:00:23 AM

jcjordan

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William, just off the top of my head - Bong & Boyington are in there just not as commanders of the unit. Bong is in unit, Boyington isn't due to he's not original 214 commander. Doolittle, was mostly European theater other than Tokyo raid. Foss is in as pilot. Others i would suggest going into the scenario editor & loading the scenario. These would be scen 15 I'm talking about.

(in reply to Williamb)

Post #: 266

RE: OOB Comments - 9/24/2004 7:50:34 AM

Tankerace

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WTF....Bennion isn't in command of the WeeVee? Wow.... That was something I kinda took for granted. Fuquo isn't in command of the Arizona??? I never checked this, I just assumed that for a historical wargame this would be in... This would make a great addition to Lemurs! scenario.

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(in reply to Williamb)

Post #: 267

RE: OOB Comments - 9/24/2004 4:09:32 PM

Lemurs!

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Some of those commanders are in the game.
Just in weird places. Kinda like Yamashita not showing up till '44.

Joe Foss is busy organizing Football leagues... and helping my Lions get to the Superbowl! Tomorrow the world!

What i would like to see is the correct OOB for the Marine Corps Raiders & Parachutists. I do have an OOB for them, which drastically differs from the one in our game, but i am unsure if there are reasons why they made the OOB the way they did.

Plus, every division in the game has an incorrect OOB for some god unknown reason.

Mike

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(in reply to Tankerace)

Post #: 268

RE: OOB Comments - 9/24/2004 4:49:35 PM

Montbrun

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From: Raleigh, NC, USA
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USMC Raider and Parachute Battalion info:

USMC Raider Battalions

1st Raider Battalion � 1/42
HQ Company � 2 x .30� LMG, 4 x .55� ATR
--Communications Platoon
--Quartermaster and Motor Transport Platoon
Raider Company � 9 x Squads, 2 x .30� LMG, 2 x .55� ATR, 2 x 60mm Mortar
Raider Company � 9 x Squads, 2 x .30� LMG, 2 x .55� ATR, 2 x 60mm Mortar
Raider Company � 9 x Squads, 2 x .30� LMG, 2 x .55� ATR, 2 x 60mm Mortar
Raider Company � 9 x Squads, 2 x .30� LMG, 2 x .55� ATR, 2 x 60mm Mortar
Weapons Company � 8 x .30� LMG, 2 x .55� ATR, 3 x 60mm Mortar

2nd Raider Battalion � 2/42
HQ and Service Company
Raider Company � 6 x Squads, 3 x .30� LMG, 2 x .55� ATR, 2 x 60mm Mortar
Raider Company � 6 x Squads, 3 x .30� LMG, 2 x .55� ATR, 2 x 60mm Mortar
Raider Company � 6 x Squads, 3 x .30� LMG, 2 x .55� ATR, 2 x 60mm Mortar
Raider Company � 6 x Squads, 3 x .30� LMG, 2 x .55� ATR, 2 x 60mm Mortar
Raider Company � 6 x Squads, 3 x .30� LMG, 2 x .55� ATR, 2 x 60mm Mortar
Raider Company � 6 x Squads, 3 x .30� LMG, 2 x .55� ATR, 2 x 60mm Mortar

Raider Battalion � After 9/42
HQ Company � 2 x .30� LMG, 4 x .55� ATR
--Communications Platoon
--Quartermaster and Motor Transport Platoon
Raider Company � 9 x Squads, 2 x .30� LMG, 2 x .55� ATR, 2 x 60mm Mortar
Raider Company � 9 x Squads, 2 x .30� LMG, 2 x .55� ATR, 2 x 60mm Mortar
Raider Company � 9 x Squads, 2 x .30� LMG, 2 x .55� ATR, 2 x 60mm Mortar
Raider Company � 9 x Squads, 2 x .30� LMG, 2 x .55� ATR, 2 x 60mm Mortar
Weapons Company � 8 x .30� LMG, 2 x .55� ATR, 3 x 60mm Mortar

TOTAL � 36 USMC Raider Squads, Support

NOTES:
1) 1 APD should = 1 Company in load costs. Battalion sealift should = 6 APDs.
2) 1st Raider Battalion � activated 1/6/42 in Quantico, VA as �1st Separate Battalion.� Redesignated
1st Raider Battalion 2/16/42. Disbanded 2/1/44 at Guadalcanal (became 1st Bn., 4th Marines).
3) 2nd Raider Battalion � activated 2/4/42 in San Diego, CA as �2nd Separate Battalion.� Redesignated 2nd Raider Battalion 2/19/42. Disbanded 1/31/44 at Guadalcanal (integrated into 4th Marines).
4) 3rd Raider Battalion � activated 9/20/42 in Samoa. Disbanded 2/1/44 at Guadalcanal (became 3rd Bn., 4th Marines).
5) 4th Raider Battalion � activated 10/23/42 in Camp Linda Vista. Disbanded 2/1/44 at Guadalcanal (became 2nd Bn., 4th Marines).

USMC Parachute Battalions

Parachute Battalion
HQ Company � 6 x .30� LMG
--Demolition Platoon
Parachute Company � 9 x Squads, 27 x .30� LMG, 3 x 2.36� �Bazooka,� 3 x 60mm Mortar
Parachute Company � 9 x Squads, 27 x .30� LMG, 3 x 2.36� �Bazooka,� 3 x 60mm Mortar
Parachute Company � 9 x Squads, 27 x .30� LMG, 3 x 2.36� �Bazooka,� 3 x 60mm Mortar

TOTAL � 27 USMC Squads, Support

NOTES:
1) 1st Parachute Battalion � activated 8/15/41 in Quantico, VA. Disbanded 2/29/44 at San Diego, CA.
2) 2nd Parachute Battalion � activated 10/1/41 in San Diego, CA. Disbanded 2/29/44 at San Diego, CA.
3) 3rd Parachute Battalion � activated 9/16/42 in San Diego, CA. Disbanded 2/29/44 at San Diego, CA.
4) 4th Parachute Battalion � activated 7/1/43 at Camp Lejeune. Disbanded 1/19/44 at San Diego, CA.
5) All Parachute Battalions were used as cadres to create the 5th Marine Division.

SOURCES:

Hough, Frank C., et al, �History of US Marine Corps Operations in World War II,� 5 Volumes, The Battery Press, Inc., Nashville, TN, 1993. (Reprint)

Rottman, Gordon L., �US Marine Corps Order of Battle � Ground and Air Units in the Pacific War, 1939-1945,� Greenwood Publishing Group, Inc., Westport, CT, 2002.

Rottman, Gordon L., �US Marine Corps World War II Divisions, Brigades, and Regiments,� Brown Mouse Publishing Co., DeRidder, LA, 1995.

Updegraph, Charles L., Jr., �US Marine Corps Special Units of World War II,� History and Museums Division, Headquarters, US Marine Corps, Washington, DC, 1977.

I'm in the process of putting together alot of TOE and OOB info for WitP.

Brad

(in reply to Lemurs!)

Post #: 269

RE: OOB Comments - 9/24/2004 5:12:26 PM

Montbrun

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From: Raleigh, NC, USA
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The divisional and RCT TOEs include "attachments" of artillery and GS/construction engimeers. I'm sure that this was an expedient in order to not have to have, literally, thousands of independent battalions and companies to handle. For example, the US Infantry Divison TOEs for this time period did not include 4.2" Mortars, but, there were 7 Chemical Mortar Battalions committed to the Pacific (71st, 72nd, 80th, 82nd, 85th, 88th, and 98th), each containing 36 4.2" Mortars.

Brad

< Message edited by Brad Hunter -- 9/24/2004 3:12:54 PM >

(in reply to Lemurs!)

Post #: 270