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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> RE: What was the computer thinking?

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RE: What was the computer thinking? - 10/12/2004 2:59:05 PM

Milman

Posts: 269
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From: Serbia
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quote:

Serbia, which had effectively been knocked out of the war, did not "liberate" Croatia.

And who liberate Croatia ? Serbian army was never knocked out of war . In 1915. Serbian army retreat in Greece and afther regrouping they continue to fight . Solun front was broken afther asault of Serbian army on Kajmakcalan (today in Macedonia) . Afther that battle Serbian army was on ofense to the end of war . At the end of WW1 they were 80km south of Wiena .

(in reply to Arsaces)

Post #: 31

RE: What was the computer thinking? - 10/12/2004 3:03:25 PM

Apollo11

Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milman

quote:

Serbia, which had effectively been knocked out of the war, did not "liberate" Croatia.

And who liberate Croatia ? Serbian army was never knocked out of war . In 1915. Serbian army retreat in Greece and afther regrouping they continue to fight . Solun front was broken afther asault of Serbian army on Kajmakcalan (today in Macedonia) . Afther that battle Serbian army was on ofense to the end of war . At the end of WW1 they were 80km south of Wiena .

What?

Ahm.... they were in Serbia and not 80 km from Wienna... The Austrian-Hungarian empire crumbled from within and not from outside...

Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Milman)

Post #: 32

RE: What was the computer thinking? - 10/12/2004 3:47:49 PM

Milman

Posts: 269
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Serbia
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This is about Solun front :

http://www.principlesofwar.com/scenarios/19thc/balkans/Kajmakcalan.htm

(in reply to Milman)

Post #: 33

RE: What was the computer thinking? - 10/12/2004 6:43:55 PM

Arsaces

Posts: 39
Joined: 7/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milman

quote:

Serbia, which had effectively been knocked out of the war, did not "liberate" Croatia.

And who liberate Croatia ? Serbian army was never knocked out of war . In 1915. Serbian army retreat in Greece and afther regrouping they continue to fight . Solun front was broken afther asault of Serbian army on Kajmakcalan (today in Macedonia) . Afther that battle Serbian army was on ofense to the end of war . At the end of WW1 they were 80km south of Wiena .

Serbia was completely occupied by the end of 1915. The Serbian army in Salonica was placed under French command, reequipped with French weapons purchased by British banks who were in turn financed by american loans...
The Serbian troops were part of a multinational force composed of French, British and even Russian soldiers. In 1918, the Bulgarian front collapsed which allowed the Allies to reenter Serbia.

The Serbian army only reentered Serbia the way G�n�ral Leclerc reentered France - as the component of a much greater alliance. They retook Belgrade - the way Leclerc 'retook' Paris.

Never got close to Vienna - or Pola or Zagreb...

Cheers,

< Message edited by Arsaces -- 10/12/2004 4:46:19 PM >

(in reply to Milman)

Post #: 34

RE: What was the computer thinking? - 10/13/2004 12:33:13 AM

esteban

Posts: 618
Joined: 7/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

The independent Croatian state did indeed exist after collapse of Austrian Hungarian empire but it was decided (by parliament) that instead of independence it would join into new state (together with Slovenia and Serbia).

Leo "Apollo11"

Ouch! That didn't turn out to be a very good decision!

(in reply to Apollo11)

Post #: 35

RE: What was the computer thinking? - 10/13/2004 10:58:48 AM

Milman

Posts: 269
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Serbia
Status: offline

quote:

The Serbian army only reentered Serbia the way G�n�ral Leclerc reentered France - as the component of a much greater alliance. They retook Belgrade - the way Leclerc 'retook' Paris.

Did you read about Solun front or what ?

(in reply to Arsaces)

Post #: 36

RE: What was the computer thinking? - 10/13/2004 1:23:40 PM

Grunty

Posts: 42
Joined: 6/21/2004
From: unknown
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so... you can see from all those different replies....there was no croatian dreadnought anywhere in history (or serbian)...... but who cares, anyway.... maybe I should just start signing my posts with: " Prinz Eugen ... american cruiser" just because it was confiscated at the end of WW2 and later bombed in Bikini atol for experimental purposes

.. or even better :" Roma" german battleship, because Germans confiscated it from Italians in 1943 (or was it the allies? ..I don't remember now)...

..I guess some persons just like to invent things to magnify importance of themselves or their state..
..if you ask me that ship wasn't either croatian or serbian nor italian.... it was captured Austro-Hungarian. ship which sank immediatly after war so ...

the point is obvious I think....

< Message edited by Grunty -- 10/13/2004 12:09:01 PM >

_____________________________

" Death and destruction...?!?.. It sounds delightfull!!! "

(in reply to Milman)

Post #: 37

RE: What was the computer thinking? - 10/13/2004 2:06:02 PM

Apollo11

Posts: 24082
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From: Zagreb, Croatia
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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arsaces

Serbia was completely occupied by the end of 1915. The Serbian army in Salonica was placed under French command, reequipped with French weapons purchased by British banks who were in turn financed by american loans...
The Serbian troops were part of a multinational force composed of French, British and even Russian soldiers. In 1918, the Bulgarian front collapsed which allowed the Allies to reenter Serbia.

The Serbian army only reentered Serbia the way G�n�ral Leclerc reentered France - as the component of a much greater alliance. They retook Belgrade - the way Leclerc 'retook' Paris.

Never got close to Vienna - or Pola or Zagreb...

Cheers,

This is 100% correct and accurate.

Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Arsaces)

Post #: 38

RE: What was the computer thinking? - 10/13/2004 4:23:47 PM

Milman

Posts: 269
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From: Serbia
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quote:

..if you ask me that ship wasn't either croatian or serbian nor italian.... it was captured Austro-Hungarian. ship which sank immediatly after war so ...

That is my point also . But we change the subject on other thing . Apollo 11 claimed that this ship was croatian .

(in reply to Grunty)

Post #: 39

RE: What was the computer thinking? - 10/13/2004 4:31:08 PM

Taiyo

Posts: 17
Joined: 10/2/2004
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is that really so important to you, Grunty? and why?

oh, btw., u'r waaaay off topic!

< Message edited by Taiyo -- 10/13/2004 2:31:58 PM >

_____________________________

All warfare is based on deception!

The Art of War

(in reply to Milman)

Post #: 40

RE: What was the computer thinking? - 10/14/2004 12:33:18 PM

Grunty

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Joined: 6/21/2004
From: unknown
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I will tell you why.... I just don't like people inventing (lying) about history and by that misleading others (which don't know much about the issue).

Just ask yourself: How can a AustroHungarian ship which surrendered after the war (in the port and territory which was by peace negotiations ceded from AustroHungarians to Italy) be a croatian ship? Just because a mob of some croats (in Italian territory, and also on a ship which would had to be left to Italians) proclaimed so? History is not to be taken so lightly... if so then soon there will be more claims (like new (nazi) theories that are comming) like that Hiltler didn't kill anyone in conc. camps, and who knows what more...

_____________________________

" Death and destruction...?!?.. It sounds delightfull!!! "

(in reply to Taiyo)

Post #: 41

RE: What was the computer thinking? - 10/14/2004 5:14:08 PM

Apollo11

Posts: 24082
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From: Zagreb, Croatia
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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grunty

I will tell you why.... I just don't like people inventing (lying) about history and by that misleading others (which don't know much about the issue).

Just ask yourself: How can a AustroHungarian ship which surrendered after the war (in the port and territory which was by peace negotiations ceded from AustroHungarians to Italy) be a croatian ship? Just because a mob of some croats (in Italian territory, and also on a ship which would had to be left to Italians) proclaimed so? History is not to be taken so lightly... if so then soon there will be more claims (like new (nazi) theories that are comming) like that Hiltler didn't kill anyone in conc. camps, and who knows what more...

I am sorry but you have no idea of history regarding those parts of Europe...

What Italian territory!?!?!

Croatia was never Italian territory - only Venetian Republic held certain parts of Croatia during its expansion (but that was long long long ago).

The Italians were always just very very small minority on our side of Adriatic.

The sad part of WWI was that for Italian participation of Allied side (what participation and what accomplishments one might ask) certain parts of Croatia (kingdom that was part of Austrian- Hungarian empire) were given by great powers to Italy...

Also I always listed the following link if you are interested in "Viribus Unitis" and her 3 sisters:

http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/bunker/5294/main.html

Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Grunty)

Post #: 42

RE: What was the computer thinking? - 10/14/2004 6:14:12 PM

Taiyo

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Joined: 10/2/2004
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@Grunty:

if you are so into making history right, then you atleast should familiarize with the history of southeastern part of Europe before posting anything about it. First thing about Austro-Hungarian empire contained Kingdom of Croatia, Dalmatia and Slavonia. In the 16th century Croatian nobility choose Austrian king to rule over Croatia because of the Turkish treath. But Croatia kept its indipendence. Hungarian, Austrian and Croatian kingdoms were, at least on paper, equal. History does not show that, because Croatia as a small and almost insignificant kingdom in Europa wasn't considered a force to be counted on. The ship was part of Austro-Hungarian fleet. After Austro-Hungarian empire lost the war, the new country on the map of Europe, Croatia, although this new country lasted for about one week, put the ship under it's flag! from that moment the ship was a Croatian ship, and rightfully so because it was built in Croatia, comander was croatian, the crew was croatian... Hell, if the Chinese came and took that ship and put it under chinese flag that ship would be chinese! The ship belongs to the country whose flag is on the ship, right!? So, Viribus Unitis is a croatian ship, that was until the WWI Austo-Hungarian ship, because croatian flag was on it until the moment it sunk in the Adriatic sea!

but, still, u'r waaaaaay off topic!!!

_____________________________

All warfare is based on deception!

The Art of War

(in reply to Apollo11)

Post #: 43

RE: What was the computer thinking? - 10/18/2004 1:43:36 PM

Grunty

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Joined: 6/21/2004
From: unknown
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If the east adriatic coast is for certain Croatian and was always Croatian how come Italian vice president Finni just said last week in one of the interviews for Croatian newspaper that Istria, Rijeka (Fiume) and Dalmatia (all together almost half of Croatia) were always Italian territory... I think Italian vice-president in an official interview knows what's he saying, no...?

and for Taiho.... yeah , whatever (I'm getting tired of this).... so in your opinion Prinz Eugen was an american cruiser, right?...

_____________________________

" Death and destruction...?!?.. It sounds delightfull!!! "

(in reply to Apollo11)

Post #: 44

RE: What was the computer thinking? - 10/18/2004 2:12:03 PM

strawbuk

Posts: 289
Joined: 4/30/2004
From: London via Glos
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grunty

I think Italian vice-president in an official interview knows what's he saying, no...?

er... you not being paying attention to Italian politics for last 50 years?

I think also 'claims' is the missing word.

_____________________________

Twinkle twinkle PBY
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Flying o' the sea so high
An ill-omen in the sky
Twinkle twinkle PBY
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(in reply to Grunty)

Post #: 45

RE: What was the computer thinking? - 10/18/2004 2:21:09 PM

Milman

Posts: 269
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Serbia
Status: offline

quote:

so in your opinion Prinz Eugen was an american cruiser, right?...

"Prinz Eugen" is American cruiser from the moment of capturing.

(in reply to Grunty)

Post #: 46

RE: What was the computer thinking? - 10/18/2004 2:41:42 PM

Grunty

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Joined: 6/21/2004
From: unknown
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well, to tell you quite frankly: I don't give a rat's ass if those regions are Italian or Croatian.... if you ask all those tens of thousands Italians which had to move after WW2 to stay away from atrocities of communists in Yugoslavia; for them those words mean a lot more than just claims.. they left behind properties worth of millions of $ and most probably won't be getting back anything.... but really .... this theme is getting nowhere... It's obvious each side has it's own opinion (like also Croatian-Italian opinion on adriatic coast), and neither one wants to change it.... who gives a ****! I'm just glad I'm not living in that beautifull but cursed region where wars will always occur just because every ****ing neighbouring country has a different religion, personal vendetta or some claims on the other... surely vacations there will always be on a risky edge.. unless you are some war-loving, mine-stepping enthusiast. Over and out...

_____________________________

" Death and destruction...?!?.. It sounds delightfull!!! "

(in reply to strawbuk)

Post #: 47

RE: What was the computer thinking? - 10/18/2004 2:46:09 PM

strawbuk

Posts: 289
Joined: 4/30/2004
From: London via Glos
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grunty

... surely vacations there will always be on a risky edge.. unless you are some war-loving, mine-stepping enthusiast. Over and out...

Another quality post on behalf of the Balkan tourist authority. Former Yugo tourist options up and running (and safe) for all those not watching Fox news for information. Go see and hlep spend some cash with people(s) and nations(s) we abondoned to their madder side in the 1980 and 1990s

_____________________________

Twinkle twinkle PBY
Seeking Kido Bu-tai
Flying o' the sea so high
An ill-omen in the sky
Twinkle twinkle PBY
Pointing out who's next to fry

(in reply to Grunty)

Post #: 48

RE: What was the computer thinking? - 10/18/2004 3:36:30 PM

Apollo11

Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grunty

well, to tell you quite frankly: I don't give a rat's ass if those regions are Italian or Croatian.... if you ask all those tens of thousands Italians which had to move after WW2 to stay away from atrocities of communists in Yugoslavia; for them those words mean a lot more than just claims.. they left behind properties worth of millions of $ and most probably won't be getting back anything.... but really .... this theme is getting nowhere... It's obvious each side has it's own opinion (like also Croatian-Italian opinion on adriatic coast), and neither one wants to change it.... who gives a ****! I'm just glad I'm not living in that beautifull but cursed region where wars will always occur just because every ****ing neighbouring country has a different religion, personal vendetta or some claims on the other... surely vacations there will always be on a risky edge.. unless you are some war-loving, mine-stepping enthusiast. Over and out...

Sure things Italians left after WWII - but what happened between WWI and WWII?

What about hundreds of thousands of people forced to Italianize their names?

What about tens of thousands of people killed by Italian Fascists?

So you see there is never simple (and one-sided) answer...

BTW, if you knew of Finni's interview (which was bogus BTW - he later claimed that it never happened) you must be from the area.

If that is the case (and I am 99.99% sure of that) you also must know that never ever a single tourist stepped on mine... last war was never fought on Adriatic coast... this is not Cambodia or Vietnam where thousands of people die every year even 10-20-30 years after the war ended...

Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Grunty)

Post #: 49

RE: What was the computer thinking? - 10/18/2004 3:52:24 PM

Grunty

Posts: 42
Joined: 6/21/2004
From: unknown
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maybe I have claims for something there too (or just good connections).... hehe...

BTW: do you know of a movie the Italians just made... it's called Cuore in la grotta (or something like that)...english translation ''heart in the pit'' where they talk of attrocities which happened to them from the communists and partisans during and after the war....
if you watch it, it gives you impression that Yugoslavia attacked Italy during WW2 and raised concentration camps for Italians...
funny thing this history...everyone seas it from it's own angle of perception I guess..

< Message edited by Grunty -- 10/18/2004 2:30:15 PM >

_____________________________

" Death and destruction...?!?.. It sounds delightfull!!! "

(in reply to Apollo11)

Post #: 50

RE: What was the computer thinking? - 10/18/2004 4:57:50 PM

Apollo11

Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grunty

maybe I have claims for something there too (or just good connections).... hehe...

BTW: do you know of a movie the Italians just made... it's called Cuore in la grotta (or something like that)...english translation ''heart in the pit'' where they talk of attrocities which happened to them from the communists and partisans during and after the war....
if you watch it, it gives you impression that Yugoslavia attacked Italy during WW2 and raised concentration camps for Italians...
funny thing this history...everyone seas it from it's own angle of perception I guess..

Yes... I heard of that movie... it caused quite a stir in Slovenia and Croatia... (and yes it twists history for 180 degrees)...

BTW, I think we should end this thread because we departed very much from what it was originally...

Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Grunty)

Post #: 51

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