When will the East Front game get started

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When will the East Front game get started - 11/7/2004 7:01:19 PM

PeteC

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Now that World at War is coming out (2/05). Does anyone know if the the East Front game is the next project?

In a related question - is Joel Billings related to Jeff Billings, the fellow who got he grognard community's hopes up with Road to Moscow??

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RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/7/2004 8:06:32 PM

Hexed Gamer

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Greeting Pete, can you be a bit more specific?

"East Front" that doesn't look like the name of any one specific Matrix Games title.

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RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/7/2004 8:14:14 PM

PeteC

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The Russian Front (1941-45). It is in the 2BY3 section/site. They made the Pacific War game and Uncommon Valor. I am just lumping them in with Matrix in general (incorrectly I suppose).

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RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/7/2004 8:30:45 PM

Hexed Gamer

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Ok that clears things up a it hehe.

On the subject of them doing the Eastern Front game though, all the power to them, but hmm.
Them doing the Eastern Front, I would have to wonder about the wisdom of that choice.

Sure the company is free to do what they want and seek to sell what they can sell, but considering Schwerpunct got there first with Russo German War (it's a game of about the same over all look and purpose), I would think it would be about the same level of wasted effort as would be the case, if Schwerpunct announced they were doing a game identical in look and purpose to War in the Pacific.

I have both Uncommon Valour and Russo German War.
Both are indeed a grognard's game.

It is greatly unlikely I would be buying any Eastern Front operational wargame by 2by3 just as it would be unlikely I would buy any other wholely redundant wargame.

I hope they decide to go and look into something that hasn't been already done to death.

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RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/7/2004 8:39:41 PM

PeteC

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I was hoping it would be similar to what Road to Moscow wanted to be. RtM was to be a "WeGo" based game like Pac War/UV and not a "normal" turned based game. I got excited when I saw Mr Billings show up as a moderator in the Pac War forum but, alas a different first name. Jeff Billings (I believe) was the creator of Road to Moscow or I should say he started it. It never went anywhere. It did look great though. Too bad. GRW did not look all that great to me although I never did buy it and give it a real chance.

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RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/8/2004 3:27:18 PM

JJKettunen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer
I hope they decide to go and look into something that hasn't been already done to death.

Yeah, games about the Eastern front are published every week, especially with these characteristics.

� 10 miles per hex
� Division sized maneuver units (with some brigades/regiments and build up to Soviet Corps)
� German Corps/Army HQ's and Soviet Army/Front HQ's
� Independent Corps/Army battalions to attach to maneuver units
� Air units by group attached to Army/Front HQ's
� Player or computer controlled production
� Losses in individual vehicles and squads
� Detailed yet automatic accounting for support personnel and supplies
� Rules for shifts in initiative
� Historical Commander ratings
� Accounts for troops/vehicles that are disrupted, disabled and fatigued
� Accurately depicts the need for training units before entering combat

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RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/8/2004 4:16:19 PM

Hexed Gamer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer
I hope they decide to go and look into something that hasn't been already done to death.

Yeah, games about the Eastern front are published every week, especially with these characteristics.

� 10 miles per hex
� Division sized maneuver units (with some brigades/regiments and build up to Soviet Corps)
� German Corps/Army HQ's and Soviet Army/Front HQ's
� Independent Corps/Army battalions to attach to maneuver units
� Air units by group attached to Army/Front HQ's
� Player or computer controlled production
� Losses in individual vehicles and squads
� Detailed yet automatic accounting for support personnel and supplies
� Rules for shifts in initiative
� Historical Commander ratings
� Accounts for troops/vehicles that are disrupted, disabled and fatigued
� Accurately depicts the need for training units before entering combat

I'm detecting a note of sarcasm there Keke :)

That is a nice laundry list of game aspects to be sure.
And a person could likely be found that could say, but Russian Campaign is not as Good as Russian Front (those were board game names from AH). And they might have a modest point.

But that point doesn't stretch to computer games nearly so well.
I own TOAW as well as Russo German War.
I am also to long a veteran wargamer to be fooled into thinking a few minor twists of design minutae are going to make a massive difference.
Especially when TOAW and RGW are not the only reasonable operational scale games for the Eastern Front in existence (they are just the two I own).

That is why, the Eastern Front is in no danger of being left out of the wargaming experience.

The same talent used on yet another eastern front title, could just as easily be employed for a multitude of topics and or time periods.

That is not to say a person should just decide to not do there own vision of the "better game" for the eastern front. But they should not be surprised if their otherwise fine game, is less than financially rewarding when insufficient numbers of wargamers line up to add it to their already sizable stack of wargames for that topic.

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RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/8/2004 4:31:17 PM

JJKettunen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

But that point doesn't stretch to computer games nearly so well.
I own TOAW as well as Russo German War.
I am also to long a veteran wargamer to be fooled into thinking a few minor twists of design minutae are going to make a massive difference.
Especially when TOAW and RGW are not the only reasonable operational scale games for the Eastern Front in existence (they are just the two I own).

That is why, the Eastern Front is in no danger of being left out of the wargaming experience.

It seems you haven't played those two games enough to notice that neither of them is really suitable for modelling the whole campaign of the Eastern Front. Such a division level computer game simply doesn't exist yet...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer
That is not to say a person should just decide to not do there own vision of the "better game" for the eastern front. But they should not be surprised if their otherwise fine game, is less than financially rewarding when insufficient numbers of wargamers line up to add it to their already sizable stack of wargames for that topic.

Yeah, grogs have never been interested in the Eastern Front, and especially when there are so many computer games that model the whole campaign sufficiently.

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RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/8/2004 5:45:11 PM

Hexed Gamer

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"It seems you haven't played those two games enough to notice that neither of them is really suitable for modelling the whole campaign of the Eastern Front. Such a division level computer game simply doesn't exist yet..."

You're still trying to convince a veteran that knows better Keke :)

Yes most games miss some element here or some element there.

"Yeah, grogs have never been interested in the Eastern Front, and especially when there are so many computer games that model the whole campaign sufficiently."

That's a silly comment at best Keke.
I never said grogs aren't interested, I AM a grog.

But this grog is telling you, I have these games, I actually have others, but a long list is not really needed.
And I am telling you, if tomorrow you told me you were going to start designing an eastern front game that is essentially another operational eastern front wargame for WW2, there is a good chance I would ignore you.
There is also a chance others would ignore you.

And your game might be slightly better here or slightly better there. But if it is only slightly, then it might not be sufficient to make the difference when you ask me for a substantial cash outlay for it.
No one is saying Matrix Games doesn't make good games. But you are essentially connected with a Matrix Games product. I am expecting the game you are involved with to possess a Matrix Games price tag.

60, 70, 80 dollars US for a game that clones the same general purpose of TOAW or RGW but has a few elements different, it isn't going to wash (well not with me at least).
The only way I see new eastern front games gaining a market, is when the other titles that got there first, have all dropped off the wargamer's radar.

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RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/8/2004 5:58:20 PM

JJKettunen

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Well, maybe for you those two games are enough about the Eastern front. For me, and there are a lot of others, that's not the case, and we are still waiting for a divisional level game that cound handle the whole campaign well.

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RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/8/2004 6:28:45 PM

Hexed Gamer

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In the end though Keke, are your "numbers" sufficient to carry the cost to get said game made?

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RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/8/2004 8:32:12 PM

JJKettunen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

In the end though Keke, are your "numbers" sufficient to carry the cost to get said game made?

All of them ask my "numbers" before starting a game development...

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RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/8/2004 9:59:38 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: w

That is why, the Eastern Front is in no danger of being left out of the wargaming experience.

w

For sure the Russo German war is good and TAOW has some nice battles but all will pale in comparison (my guess as I am sure others too) with the planned (but put on hold) eastern front game by 2by3 Games (Gary Grigsby design). I played Second Front and War in Russia way back when and looking at the detail they achived with Uncommon Valor and War in the Pacific this new game (if it gets devoloped) will make all future Eastern Front games (the grand campaign games) obsolete for many years. I am waiting patiently for it hoping it will get done. As far as I know it is on hold for the grand WW2 game by 2by3 and the Med campaign (with the Uncommon Valor engine). I might be wrong since that was old news (I don't visit as often as I did before)

My brother, who does not play wargames very often, keeps asking me a few times per year when Gary Grigby's new Eastern Front game will come out

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RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/8/2004 11:58:23 PM

Hexed Gamer

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Well I don't want anyone to think I have no interest in thinking it can be done.

I have UV, and its a good design.

Sometimes figuring out what the community actually wants is a dauntng prospect.

I have actually seen people claim they would like to wargame out the whole war by combining a design for tactical like Steel Panthers for small unit control of the battlefield with a design like Strategic Command to cover the higher echelon needs.

Currently, my idea of a great notional game, would be the software HTTR is being built on, for maybe a few of the wars great battles that might not be entirely airborne oriented.
I can think of so many examples, that a list would just end up being too long though heheh.

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RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/9/2004 4:16:14 AM

pzgndr

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quote:

we are still waiting for a divisional level game that cound handle the whole campaign well.

I keep wondering if a remake/upgrade of War in Russia might be in the works. Drop it down to division level, 10-mile hexes, with an emphasis on the strategic campaign game 1941-45. That would be a worthwhile project. Even a facelift of the Matrix Edition to current graphics and interface standards would be nice. (Hint. Hint. Stomps foot.

)

Alternatively, the Anglo-German War successor should be World War Two - Europe which expands the AGW system into Russia. Unless strategic elements are added to the game (eg, politics, diplomacy, resources, production, research, etc.) then it will continue to be a great operational game but limited for strategic campaigns. But we're still trying to get AGW out the door early next year, and WWII-E wouldn't happen until a year or two after that.

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RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/9/2004 5:59:12 AM

thecker

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There have been alot of games about battles on the Eastern front, that is entirely different from modeling the whole campaign, nothing worth playing has even approached that except Toaw, and as was said thats very hard for toaw to handle.
Imo Division scale is too coarse tho I'd want it broken down to at least regiments(and battalions for the panzer corps).
Yes the HTTR system would be a good fantasy version lol, I have only just started playing HTTR, it's excellent so far all the features I think are nessesary for a good simulation of operational war.
But already I see that the complexity of the eastern campaign would be mind boogling in real time play, WEGO, would hopefully give a more concrete(in the sense that you can only react at the end of the turn so you dont have to worry about reacting during play) pace plus playability by Email.

The scale I'd 'like' to see is about 3-6 km per hex/ centimeter whatever is used.
So far tho I really like Daniel mcbride's drang nach Osten(ACOW), if they could just get something even that detailed I guess that would be very good.(using WEGO of course)
This is actually the main reason I'm even interested in wargames to me everything else about WWII is trivial.

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RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/9/2004 8:15:43 AM

Dave Ferguson

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Are there too many games on the eastern front? I don't think so, for me the eastern front is WW2 with a mind boggling size and scope. IMO you either go for a corps level simulation with say month long turns, giving a game of say 50 turns which is a reasonable number. Or you go for a division/regiment scale with approx 10km hexes to allow for more detail in individual battles. In either case the trick is to get the strategic production aspects right, although at least for the russians it is a no brainer, produce lots of tanks, guns and planes or produce lots of tanks, guns and planes! The problem with production/strategy is it is not suitable for games with short turns, there is nothing worse than playing a couple of hundred turns before your brilliant strategem is revealed to be useless. Then there is playtesting, how do you playtest a two hundred turn monster? Perhaps concentrate on automatic feedback mechanisms to reign in extreme situations, and a scenario dump to re start the scenario at the current turn with a new set of special rules etc. And of course you need a method of handling large numbers of units with a orders system to compliment the players micromanagement.

Dave

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RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/9/2004 4:07:56 PM

Kung Karl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave Ferguson

Are there too many games on the eastern front? I don't think so, for me the eastern front is WW2 with a mind boggling size and scope. IMO you either go for a corps level simulation with say month long turns, giving a game of say 50 turns which is a reasonable number. Or you go for a division/regiment scale with approx 10km hexes to allow for more detail in individual battles. In either case the trick is to get the strategic production aspects right, although at least for the russians it is a no brainer, produce lots of tanks, guns and planes or produce lots of tanks, guns and planes! The problem with production/strategy is it is not suitable for games with short turns, there is nothing worse than playing a couple of hundred turns before your brilliant strategem is revealed to be useless. Then there is playtesting, how do you playtest a two hundred turn monster? Perhaps concentrate on automatic feedback mechanisms to reign in extreme situations, and a scenario dump to re start the scenario at the current turn with a new set of special rules etc. And of course you need a method of handling large numbers of units with a orders system to compliment the players micromanagement.

Dave

I say go for corps size. The less units the smarter the AI is. The AI can't handle huge numbers of units. The less units you have the more realism. The commanding general of the entire eastern front did not move every division of the front personally. (Why need lower level generals if one person control the entire front?) Micromanagement is also reduced alot wich makes for a greater game.

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RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/9/2004 5:32:22 PM

Neilster

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quote:

I say go for corps size. The less units the smarter the AI is. The AI can't handle huge numbers of units. The less units you have the more realism. The commanding general of the entire eastern front did not move every division of the front personally. (Why need lower level generals if one person control the entire front?) Micromanagement is also reduced alot wich makes for a greater game.

When Matrix World in Flames comes out, just select the Barbarossa scenario and you have your game. It's amazing how much room there is for tactical dash with corps sized units in the vast spaces of The East. MWiF should be out in the next ten years or so. We've only been waiting since about 1996

.

Cheers, Neilster

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RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/9/2004 6:35:52 PM

JJKettunen

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Here are the latest news from 2by3Games' developers journal:

"...As for the Eastern Front game, we hope to get back to it within the next few months as well. We expect that Mike Wood of Matrix Games will be working with us on this project. We will have some work cut out for us as we switch the game from an older engine to the new engine, but with Keith's help, Mike will be able to accomplish this task. Although the game is a game for the grognard's, we believe that it is early enough in the game's development to warrant switching engines.

The switch makes sense for the long-term success of the game and any other's that might follow it. The basic design of the game has not changed since we worked on it in 2000/2001. It will be a turn-based game with weekly turns and 10 mile hexes. It will not have an execution phase, but instead will have movement and combat all in one phase. We think it will be a relatively easy game to play, although it will be massive in befitting the size of the Eastern Front. One of my favorite games of all time is War in the East from SPI, so I'm really looking forward to being able to work on our own war in the east game, using everything we've learned over the last 10 years regarding interface design, graphics and AI."

Then there was this:

"Mike will continue to spend some time patching WitP, but will transition over the next few months to work primarily on Eastern Front. Keith will continue to be our technology guru, and will assist both Gary and Mike while they work on these two projects. He'll also invest some of his time to look into some new ideas that we have regarding a project which we all hope to get to in 2006 or 2007, Steel Panthers IV."

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RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/9/2004 7:48:24 PM

Charles2222

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You would have thought CL was supposed to be something of a SP-IV.

< Message edited by Charles_22 -- 11/9/2004 11:48:45 AM >

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RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/9/2004 7:51:55 PM

Warfare1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

The switch makes sense for the long-term success of the game and any other's that might follow it. The basic design of the game has not changed since we worked on it in 2000/2001. It will be a turn-based game with weekly turns and 10 mile hexes. It will not have an execution phase, but instead will have movement and combat all in one phase. We think it will be a relatively easy game to play, although it will be massive in befitting the size of the Eastern Front. One of my favorite games of all time is War in the East from SPI, so I'm really looking forward to being able to work on our own war in the east game, using everything we've learned over the last 10 years regarding interface design, graphics and AI."

Well, I'm a grog from way back. But nothing will make my eyes glaze over faster, then to start up an East Front game and see 3,000 unit counters staring back at me.

Spending an hour or more at each turn will get old real fast. In addition, with so many counters, the AI will have a difficult time playing a good game.

And PBEM for so massive a game will be almost an impossibility.

I like playing east front games, but now I am looking into playing more elegant game systems.

For example, Third Reich computer game is elegant without lots of counters. The only thing I would like to have seen would be a Third Reich game with monthly turns, rather than with 3-month turns.

< Message edited by Warfare1 -- 11/9/2004 5:53:20 PM >

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Post #: 22

RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/9/2004 10:31:52 PM

JJKettunen

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Well, there's the beer and pretzels -crowd, who want something in line with Third Reich, and then there are more serious grogs who want another Grigsby design...

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RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/10/2004 12:02:41 AM

Hexed Gamer

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quote:

He'll also invest some of his time to look into some new ideas that we have regarding a project which we all hope to get to in 2006 or 2007, Steel Panthers IV."

Now That's a bold statement to make in the open here at Matrix Games hehe. I wonder how many saw that? :)

I am assuming "Steel Panthers IV" is more a turn of phrase than anything else.
I wonder if that was a slip of the tongue that should have been left unuttered hehe.

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RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/10/2004 1:02:43 AM

Warfare1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

Well, there's the beer and pretzels -crowd, who want something in line with Third Reich, and then there are more serious grogs who want another Grigsby design...

That's a bit of an arrogant statement.

Like I said, I'm a grog.

But spending hours on each turn, and pushing around thousands of counters, is NOT fun. It's tedium.

Third Reich is an example of a challenging, but steamlined game system.

But it could be made more challenging, with more refinement. . .

I would like to see a system like TR but at monthly turns, and perhaps at the Corps level.

BTW, since Battlefields! has been renamed, isn't the sig under your name redundant now?

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RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/10/2004 1:06:36 AM

Warfare1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

quote:

He'll also invest some of his time to look into some new ideas that we have regarding a project which we all hope to get to in 2006 or 2007, Steel Panthers IV."

Now That's a bold statement to make in the open here at Matrix Games hehe. I wonder how many saw that? :)

I am assuming "Steel Panthers IV" is more a turn of phrase than anything else.
I wonder if that was a slip of the tongue that should have been left unuttered hehe.

I always thought that CL was supposed to be the Next "Steel Panther" game?

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RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/10/2004 1:23:27 AM

JJKettunen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Warfare1

That's a bit of an arrogant statement.

Do not take it too seriously.

quote:

Like I said, I'm a grog.

But spending hours on each turn, and pushing around thousands of counters, is NOT fun. It's tedium.

Well, everyone can define themselves as they wish, but I know many who enjoy for example D. McBride's monster scenarios with TOAW, with thousands of counters and all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warfare1Third Reich is an example of a challenging, but steamlined game system.

But it could be made more challenging, with more refinement. . .

I would like to see a system like TR but at monthly turns, and perhaps at the Corps level.

I find TR enjoyable as well, but it is definitely in the beer and pretzels -category. I have nothing against more refined version of it, but what I really like too see is a divisional level Eastern front -game with all it's "tedious" details...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warfare1BTW, since Battlefields! has been renamed, isn't the sig under your name redundant now?

Unfortunately, I can't change it myself.

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RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/10/2004 1:38:37 AM

Warfare1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warfare1

That's a bit of an arrogant statement.

Do not take it too seriously.

quote:

Like I said, I'm a grog.

But spending hours on each turn, and pushing around thousands of counters, is NOT fun. It's tedium.

Well, everyone can define themselves as they wish, but I know many who enjoy for example D. McBride's monster scenarios with TOAW, with thousands of counters and all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warfare1Third Reich is an example of a challenging, but steamlined game system.

But it could be made more challenging, with more refinement. . .

I would like to see a system like TR but at monthly turns, and perhaps at the Corps level.

I find TR enjoyable as well, but it is definitely in the beer and pretzels -category. I have nothing against more refined version of it, but what I really like too see is a divisional level Eastern front -game with all it's "tedious" details...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warfare1BTW, since Battlefields! has been renamed, isn't the sig under your name redundant now?

Unfortunately, I can't change it myself.

I'm a grog: played them all - TOAW, UV, etc, etc. . .

But as I mentioned, monster games after a while get old, unless it hasn't been done before, like WiTP and UV. They are enjoyable.

East Front has been done to death - monster-wise. . .

Your mention of a beer & pretezel game implies easy and dumbed-down. . .

But such need not be the case.

Axis & Allies is a simple game; chess is not. Yet both use few counters in their games.

And surely, chess is not a beer & pretezel game.

Similarly, TR uses an elegant, but challenging system which could be refined to make it more challenging, without the need to throw in thousands of counters (most of them are redundant anyway).

The idea would be to achieve a challenging east front game without the need to employ thousands of counters.

< Message edited by Warfare1 -- 11/9/2004 11:41:20 PM >

(in reply to JJKettunen)

Post #: 28

RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/10/2004 2:03:30 AM

JJKettunen

Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warfare1

East Front has been done to death - monster-wise. . .

No it hasn't! There are absolutely no division scaled "monster" Eastern Front games available anywhere, games that could handle the whole affair!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warfare1
The idea would be to achieve a challenging east front game without the need to employ thousands of counters.

Actually at divisional level for Eastern front, there won't be thousands of counters. Anyhow it depends on the gameplay if it would be tedious or not, but much of interesting detail would be lost with Corps sized abstraction.

_____________________________

Jyri Kettunen

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn

(in reply to Warfare1)

Post #: 29

RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/10/2004 2:25:55 AM

Warfare1

Posts: 658
Joined: 10/20/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warfare1

East Front has been done to death - monster-wise. . .

No it hasn't! There are absolutely no division scaled "monster" Eastern Front games available anywhere, games that could handle the whole affair!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warfare1
The idea would be to achieve a challenging east front game without the need to employ thousands of counters.

Actually at divisional level for Eastern front, there won't be thousands of counters. Anyhow it depends on the gameplay if it would be tedious or not, but much of interesting detail would be lost with Corps sized abstraction.

No division level?

Well, look at the east front scenarios designed for TOAW.

Maybe there won't be thousands of counters - but it will be pretty close with both sides included. At the beginning of Barbarossa there were millions of Germans and Soviets on the east front. How many divisions is that?

Again, most of those units will be redundant since the Germans will be expected to ram through weak Soviet troops in the first few months.

A game employing hundreds and/or thousands of counters does not equal a challenging or sophisticated game. It simply means the player is faced with shoving around hundreds of counters.

Nothing has to be lost in gameplay; and there is no need to include the name of every single unit that fought on the east front.

At corps level, with 2 week or 1 month long turns, with a sophisticated game engine that includes weather, random events, etc, etc. . . could be a very enjoyable, challenging "grog" game.

(in reply to JJKettunen)

Post #: 30