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RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/9/2004 11:06:56 PM   
Chaplain

 

Posts: 133
Joined: 8/21/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MButtazoni
so many opinions, so little understanding of GGWAW...


Hey, Maurice, I probably spend $500/yr on wargames (and have for 25 years) and I would love to be convinced that GGWaW is worth the attention of a grognard. But I have followed the forums without comment because I see nothing that even begins to convince me it's more than what we used to call a "beer-and-pretzels" game.

Help me (and others like me) understand what we don't understand, and we'll come around. As it stands, WaW seems clearly marketed for mass appeal a la Starcraft or Axis and Allies, rather than the usual Matrix set.

Just my opinion.

(in reply to MButtazoni)
Post #: 31
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/9/2004 11:08:10 PM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline 		We still call it "beer and pretzels" father.

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Post #: 32
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/9/2004 11:10:05 PM   
Chaplain

 

Posts: 133
Joined: 8/21/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Halsey

We still call it "beer and pretzels" father.


LOL!

(in reply to Halsey)
Post #: 33
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/9/2004 11:17:29 PM   
fbastos


Posts: 827
Joined: 8/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

That's something we'd have to take up with Matrix when the time comes. I wouldn't wish that work on anyone, but I realize that to some this could be fun. It's certainly a possibility down the road. Basically, from what I can tell, that's what Matrix and Mike Wood did for the original Pac War long after SSI had any ongoing interest.


Hey, count me in too! I would love to help as a pro-bona work, including signing a non-disclosure agreement.

F.

_____________________________

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Post #: 34
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/9/2004 11:17:50 PM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline 		I think it's a good move for Matrix, even though it really doesn't appeal to us hardcore gamers.

The market might be more sympathetic to a strategy game like this. Besides, their heads are still pounding from the work that they've put into WITP. This is a break for these guys.

At least the forum thread for GGWAW shouldn't be as cannibalistic as this one is.

< Message edited by Halsey -- 11/9/2004 3:45:41 PM >

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Post #: 35
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/9/2004 11:21:35 PM   
fbastos


Posts: 827
Joined: 8/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

so many opinions, so little understanding of GGWAW...


To be honest, GGWAW looks pretty much like a big RISK game to me. I'm much more for hyper-realism than high levels of abstraction, so I'm not planning on buying it (albeit I keep my mind open and certainly want to learn more).

F.

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Post #: 36
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/9/2004 11:21:46 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		It's interesting how game marketing has changed over the last 5 years, at least in the minds of many Matrix/WitP fans. For many years, computer wargamers were just like boardgames in that once published, the only thing that anyone felt was left to be done was to fix any bugs (with boardgames this meant rulebook errata). With the advent of Matrix's (and others) ongoing work on old titles, especially with most of this work being provided free of charge, some people now see the publication of a game as just the first step in an ongoing public development process. This may also have a lot to do with the way online games have developed over the past 10 years, with subscriptions paying for ongoing work. Unless a subscription model can be developed that makes sense, I don't see how anyone could expect official development work to continue. We're all for unofficial modders (just wait for GGWaW to see more of the benefit of this), but spending our time continuing to improve a title that has long since shipped just doesn't make financial sense without ongoing revenues. By the way, we don't see WitP as being dead, in fact sales in October were significantly higher than they were in September, and we would expect the game to continue selling for some time. I just don't believe that improving the game will generate many additional sales over just committing to fix bugs as they are found.

Perhaps Matrix will look into the real interest in subscription revenue for future WitP work. As for leaving a bad taste in our mouths, it's more that we had the same taste in our mouth for so long that we're desperate to find something else to taste. There's no reason that WitP buyers shouldn't be able to enjoy the game for a long time, helped on by various fans that provide various art mods, info spreadsheets and new scenarios. Enjoy.

(in reply to pad152)
Post #: 37
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/9/2004 11:25:22 PM   
Tankerace


Posts: 6400
Joined: 3/21/2003
From: Stillwater, OK, United States
Status: offline 		I might get GGWaW, but from what I can see it is going to be a fiarly quick paced game, and not as in depth as I like wargames. From what GGWaW seems to be (to me), if I have Hearts of Iron I really don't see justification for buying GGWaW, especially with a whole slew of other games coming out at the same time (Silent Hunter III baby, Torpedo Los!).

GGWaW looks good, but (I rather think beer and pretzels describes it well) I just can't justify spending 50 dollars on a game that is a faster paced, turned based version of a game I already own. One thing I buy a game on is length. If a wargame taks me more than a month to play, i love it. If it takes 6 months (West Front Dynamic Campaign) or over a year (Witp), then I will be willing to live on Ramen noodles for a while to get it. But for a game that is relatively short, no. Maybe in a few years if the price comes down.

_____________________________

Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

(in reply to Halsey)
Post #: 38
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/9/2004 11:30:53 PM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline 		Hijack! SH3, can't wait!

< Message edited by Halsey -- 11/9/2004 3:31:13 PM >

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Post #: 39
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/9/2004 11:31:25 PM   
fbastos


Posts: 827
Joined: 8/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Perhaps Matrix will look into the real interest in subscription revenue for future WitP work.


I'm willing to work for free to improve the game, ... also...

I'm willing to pay up to $15/month for someone else to improve the game. ... but...

I'm not willing to have the game dead in the water - I might very well avoid the aggravation and stop playing it right now and no longer advocate it to my friends

Why not ask Matrix their position about subscription right now and avoid uncertainties? $15 will probably be too much for most of the folks, so perhaps $5 to $10 per month will keep everybody happy.

F.

_____________________________

I'm running out of jokes...


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Post #: 40
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/9/2004 11:36:16 PM   
Tankerace


Posts: 6400
Joined: 3/21/2003
From: Stillwater, OK, United States
Status: offline 		No offense, I love the game. All my mods, and War Plan Orange should be prrof of that. But after spending almost a 100 dollars, I am not going to keep paying for improvements. That said:

I would not mind paying for expansion packs to the game. Large mods (say on the scale of War Plan Orange, or larger) I would not mind paying a small fee or. But I would not pay XX a month for improvements.

_____________________________

Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

(in reply to fbastos)
Post #: 41
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/9/2004 11:36:44 PM   
Jmsimer


Posts: 40
Joined: 7/27/2004
From: Chaska, MN
Status: offline 		Joel,

I would be more than willing to help you in any study you wish to do of how your customers would respond to subscriptions, higher initial prices, charges for updates, or any other ideas you have. Personally, your post-release support is a huge factor in my decisions to buy your products. No game this complex is perfect even after Beta, but I know Matrix and 2by3 will work hard to make it good, so I have a strong preference for your products.
I think WitP is good now, and will be even better after 1.40, so I am satisfied with that level of support... but I do wish there was some way to continue developing it.

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 42
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/9/2004 11:43:58 PM   
Banquet

 

Posts: 1184
Joined: 8/23/2002
From: England
Status: offline 		I don't think anyone can reasonably expect Matrix to continue improving the game (beyond bug fixes) It's like asking for V2 bit by bit.

Whatever happens to WitP from here on in I have a playable solo game that I love, is one of my favourite games of all time, and I certainly remain extremely happy with my purchase.

I'd be wary of a subscription. For $10-15 a month I'd expect to see some dramatic things happen (like a patch a month with new major enhancements - but if that's do-able, sign me up!)

On the other hand, I'd glady pay $20-30 for an add on that improved things. I'd slap 30 quid on the table now for a production/supply overlay that told me what was being produced and used and where it was going.

Either way, I wish Matrix the best of fortune with their upcoming titles.

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(in reply to fbastos)
Post #: 43
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/9/2004 11:48:02 PM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline 		There are several board game publishers who have adopted a survival strategy that may have some applicability to computer wargame publishers (forgive me if you already know about, and have considered, this). It has its roots way back in the old S&T magazine days when SPI would float game ideas to see how much positive response they brought.

GMT Games calls its effort "Project 500." What it amounts to is putting together a pretty well-developed game idea (including basic mechanics and some preliminary graphics) and selling it on a subscription basis for a less-than-retail price. After the advance sales meet a certain level, the game moves on to full production. For example, suppose you have a game idea that would command, on your estimate, $59.95 on publication, and you would have to have 1,000 sales in order to break even. You post the information on your Web site and take advance orders at $44.95 (credit cards are not charged until the publication sale criteria are met). When (and if) you get 1,000 subscriptions, you move the game into full development and charge the advance customers, anticipating that several hundred more sales will materialize during the development process. When the game is published, it costs $59.95, and your production costs are already covered by advanced sales.

Just a risk-management idea. GMT was in serious danger of going under until they developed this technique.

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 44
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/9/2004 11:53:56 PM   
ZOOMIE1980

 

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

It's interesting how game marketing has changed over the last 5 years, at least in the minds of many Matrix/WitP fans. For many years, computer wargamers were just like boardgames in that once published, the only thing that anyone felt was left to be done was to fix any bugs (with boardgames this meant rulebook errata). With the advent of Matrix's (and others) ongoing work on old titles, especially with most of this work being provided free of charge, some people now see the publication of a game as just the first step in an ongoing public development process. This may also have a lot to do with the way online games have developed over the past 10 years, with subscriptions paying for ongoing work. Unless a subscription model can be developed that makes sense, I don't see how anyone could expect official development work to continue. We're all for unofficial modders (just wait for GGWaW to see more of the benefit of this), but spending our time continuing to improve a title that has long since shipped just doesn't make financial sense without ongoing revenues. By the way, we don't see WitP as being dead, in fact sales in October were significantly higher than they were in September, and we would expect the game to continue selling for some time. I just don't believe that improving the game will generate many additional sales over just committing to fix bugs as they are found.

Perhaps Matrix will look into the real interest in subscription revenue for future WitP work. As for leaving a bad taste in our mouths, it's more that we had the same taste in our mouth for so long that we're desperate to find something else to taste. There's no reason that WitP buyers shouldn't be able to enjoy the game for a long time, helped on by various fans that provide various art mods, info spreadsheets and new scenarios. Enjoy.


Well this is where the client-server model trumpetted by folks like Capt Cruft, myself and others comes into play, where the game rules and data are enforced in an server side SQL, database, and the code running on the gamer's machine is just an interpreted display (GUI client). One or more very large, powerful servers (4 way Xeon PIV 8GB RAM type things with fibre-channel disk arrays, etc....known as "Dieties") with a big pipe, hundreds/thousands of clients and subsription based access to provide a modest revenue stream. Optionally license the server side code to third parties for hosting or license an engine API for third party development/enhancement. The only turn based model of this I know of is the, still alive and kicking, Wolfpack bunch, but that is a very small user base and the code is OpenSource, i.e. no revenue, but it actually works very nicely. Not sure how well it scales, though, but unlike Everquest and other massively multi-player systems, you don't have to pump graphics across the pipe, just raw, compressed, data, the client translates the data into the visual interface. It would probably take several hundred or more subscribers at $10 month or so to make it worth anyone's while beyond a hobby stage. And to fit that model the WitP code would have to be significantly overhauled, I'm sure....especially the data handling...

And as an alternative to native GUI clients (which one could sell for $10 a pop as well, BTW) one could render the graphics using HTML/Javascript/Java and the gamer accesses the system entirely through a browser interface. The server side just renders Web pages via mechanisms like XLTS entities under a JBoss environment...

Interesting academic excerise, though, regardless of its practicallity.

< Message edited by ZOOMIE1980 -- 11/9/2004 11:12:47 PM >

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 45
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/9/2004 11:54:27 PM   
Tanaka


Posts: 4378
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

No offense, I love the game. All my mods, and War Plan Orange should be prrof of that. But after spending almost a 100 dollars, I am not going to keep paying for improvements. That said:

I would not mind paying for expansion packs to the game. Large mods (say on the scale of War Plan Orange, or larger) I would not mind paying a small fee or. But I would not pay XX a month for improvements.


Completely agree here. Although I hate the whole trend these days with expansion packs. Id rather pay more up front for continuing support rather than subcriptions fees or epansion packs/add ons/sequals etc. I paid $100 bucks for this game to get the whole package and because I knew Matrix makes killer games with great continuing support.

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 11/9/2004 4:56:46 PM >

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Post #: 46
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/10/2004 12:09:08 AM   
latosusi

 

Posts: 327
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: London/Kuopio
Status: offline 		I agree. Bring us east front!

(in reply to testarossa)
Post #: 47
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/10/2004 12:09:44 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: strawbuk

Uh huh - but read rest re WITP - now let's be really cardful what we wish for in patch 1.4 (espeically in systems not oob) because if it ever happens it looks like it will be the last...

And I bet few Sauercrackerisms or similar make it - to much and no resource to do it. Understandable but not reassured about what happens if us normal mortals hit a big bug in 1944


Sauerackerisms Been trying for awhile. Must keep banging my head! I'm totally into retail new feature/interface streamlining/bug bashing patches after a acceptable amount of time has past and most bugs and design flaws are addressed. After all, who knows what will happen in 43/44/45?

Personally I'm concerned about the logistical nightmare the point and click, follow this follow that TF etc user interface will become when the force levels reach what they are going to reach. Really needed a more streamlined approach to TF management. Ship classes/subs needed to be insertable into divisions; divisions placed into TFs, and TFs into larger Mission Specific Task Groups (Sea Control and Amphib Warfare) which could perform various functions like bombardment, landing, covering force, air support etc with the TFs placed within it by simply forming it and selecting a target objective.

< Message edited by Ron Saueracker -- 11/9/2004 5:30:45 PM >

_____________________________





Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to strawbuk)
Post #: 48
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/10/2004 12:17:49 AM   
Tankerace


Posts: 6400
Joined: 3/21/2003
From: Stillwater, OK, United States
Status: offline 		Another word for the Witp dictionary!

_____________________________

Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 49
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/10/2004 12:59:17 AM   
pad152

 

Posts: 2871
Joined: 4/23/2000
Status: offline
quote:

Perhaps Matrix will look into the real interest in subscription revenue for future WitP work. As for leaving a bad taste in our mouths, it's more that we had the same taste in our mouth for so long that we're desperate to find something else to taste. There's no reason that WitP buyers shouldn't be able to enjoy the game for a long time, helped on by various fans that provide various art mods, info spreadsheets and new scenarios. Enjoy.


Joel - I would be happy to spend $25 - $30 for continued support for Witp, just sad to hear the Witp engine is dead.

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 50
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/10/2004 12:59:28 AM   
Chaplain

 

Posts: 133
Joined: 8/21/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

It's interesting how game marketing has changed over the last 5 years, at least in the minds of many Matrix/WitP fans. For many years, computer wargamers were just like boardgames in that once published, the only thing that anyone felt was left to be done was to fix any bugs (with boardgames this meant rulebook errata). With the advent of Matrix's (and others) ongoing work on old titles, especially with most of this work being provided free of charge, some people now see the publication of a game as just the first step in an ongoing public development process. This may also have a lot to do with the way online games have developed over the past 10 years, with subscriptions paying for ongoing work. Unless a subscription model can be developed that makes sense, I don't see how anyone could expect official development work to continue. We're all for unofficial modders (just wait for GGWaW to see more of the benefit of this), but spending our time continuing to improve a title that has long since shipped just doesn't make financial sense without ongoing revenues. By the way, we don't see WitP as being dead, in fact sales in October were significantly higher than they were in September, and we would expect the game to continue selling for some time. I just don't believe that improving the game will generate many additional sales over just committing to fix bugs as they are found.

Perhaps Matrix will look into the real interest in subscription revenue for future WitP work. As for leaving a bad taste in our mouths, it's more that we had the same taste in our mouth for so long that we're desperate to find something else to taste. There's no reason that WitP buyers shouldn't be able to enjoy the game for a long time, helped on by various fans that provide various art mods, info spreadsheets and new scenarios. Enjoy.


Joel - I understand, agree with, and support all the rationales presented here. My only point was that GGWaW doesn't interest grognards (generally speaking) and Maurice seemed to imply that it should. Having said that, I understand and support producing GGWaw, if only because it creates more time/money to be plowed into your Eastern Front game. End justifying the means, you know - and all that ...

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 51
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/10/2004 1:10:41 AM   
ZOOMIE1980

 

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

quote:

ORIGINAL: strawbuk

Uh huh - but read rest re WITP - now let's be really cardful what we wish for in patch 1.4 (espeically in systems not oob) because if it ever happens it looks like it will be the last...

And I bet few Sauercrackerisms or similar make it - to much and no resource to do it. Understandable but not reassured about what happens if us normal mortals hit a big bug in 1944


Sauerackerisms Been trying for awhile. Must keep banging my head! I'm totally into retail new feature/interface streamlining/bug bashing patches after a acceptable amount of time has past and most bugs and design flaws are addressed. After all, who knows what will happen in 43/44/45?

Personally I'm concerned about the logistical nightmare the point and click, follow this follow that TF etc user interface will become when the force levels reach what they are going to reach. Really needed a more streamlined approach to TF management. Ship classes/subs needed to be insertable into divisions; divisions placed into TFs, and TFs into larger Mission Specific Task Groups (Sea Control and Amphib Warfare) which could perform various functions like bombardment, landing, covering force, air support etc with the TFs placed within it by simply forming it and selecting a target objective.


This would come under a topic of better overall command and control mechanisms, in general, to vastly reduce to the massive amount of tedious point-and-click currently required. No need to have to micro-manage every unit in a theater for a particular high level operation. We really need better overall tightly coupled command structure at the regional and corp level to ease the burden of executing major operations.

For instance, say in Feb/Mar 1942 as the Japanese player I should be able to go a Burma Area Army command screen and simply select a target like Mandalay, pick the Burma Area Army assigned corps level forces to partake in the operation, request additional forces from higher HQ, if needed, deisred unit training (prep) level, and then just GO, without having to set each individual unit's marching destination and planning objective, one at a time.

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 52
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/10/2004 1:20:56 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		Yep, agreed, with most of the player input organised and issued through HQs, but that's something for the next revamped PacWar incarnation. You are talking major rewrite and design approach here.

I simply am bowing to some realities (some may think it a dead horse, but hey)based on the fact that this patch 1.4 or whatever is the swan song for WITP and certain things are or will prove to be necessary. Allowing players to organize ships into more manageable sizes and adding a larger Task Group which acts like a mobile base for TFs placed within it to allow react and return to function is paramount.

_____________________________





Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)
Post #: 53
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/10/2004 1:42:24 AM   
Moquia


Posts: 174
Joined: 7/12/2004
Status: offline 		I would pay 20-25$ for version 2.0 of witp, if there were enough features included. Feature wishlist: TF Waypoints, An improved groundcombat routine, maybe one or two more.

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 54
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/10/2004 1:44:27 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Yep, agreed, with most of the player input organised and issued through HQs, but that's something for the next revamped PacWar incarnation. You are talking major rewrite and design approach here.

I simply am bowing to some realities (some may think it a dead horse, but hey)based on the fact that this patch 1.4 or whatever is the swan song for WITP and certain things are or will prove to be necessary. Allowing players to organize ships into more manageable sizes and adding a larger Task Group which acts like a mobile base for TFs placed within it to allow react and return to function is paramount.


Yes, that's a totally different approach. I can't resist pointing out that many of items that people call for in order to "streamline" the way player's can give orders ends up requiring an AI to interpret what exactly the player had in mind. This takes control out of the hands of the player and gives it to the untrustworthy AI, that many other players don't trust to do anything. Not all streamlining efforts require this, but many do.

As for future changes, who's to say that some individuals won't come along and continue improving WitP (either officially for Matrix, or unofficially), just as Mike Wood improved Pac War. My point was that short of additional revenue down the road, there's always going to be a finite amount of resources we're willind to devote to the project. By the way, where did everyone get this idea that 1.40 will be the last patch. I said "Mike will continue to spend some time patching WitP, but will transition over the next few months to work primarily on Eastern Front". I didn't say that no work would be done on WitP. It was always our intention along with Matrix Games's intention to have Mike move on to another project. I'm sure that Matrix would claim that the ongoing WitP support will be better than the support that most other wargames get (and they'd be right).

What I did say was that the WitP engine is now technologically out of date and that we are not planning on using it for other products down the road (as we have much better ways of making games now). This is a casualty of both improvements in hardware and operating system software, and improvements in the way we design and program our games. However, anyone that has followed Gary's work over the years realizes that much of what he creates in new games is grounded in the work he's done in the past.

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 55
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/10/2004 3:03:39 AM   
Buck Beach

 

Posts: 1973
Joined: 6/25/2000
From: Upland,CA,USA
Status: offline 		I too would be reluctant to buy it or other games with this type of mechanics/engine. I think it is a strike out for serious gamers who like details, in otherwords boring.

(in reply to MButtazoni)
Post #: 56
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/10/2004 4:19:11 AM   
Embark


Posts: 138
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		Well being a relative newcomer to the WarGame genre and very new to the "hardcore" stuff like WITP, I can see where 2by3 would want to put something like this on the market. GGWAW could very well be the game that other newcomers cut their teeth on. More wargame enthusiasts is definitely not a bad thing. Take it from someone who spent a lot of time looking "grognard" games before jumping in. The grog crowd can seem like somewhat of an elitist club. Guys who don't know the difference between a CV and a CVL or don't know how many rivets were on the starboard side of the USS Lexington can find themselves somewhat daunted. Maybe by WAW could be their first taste of this genre even if it isn't as complex as a game like WITP. By appealing to a broader market than the hardcore crowd they could be making more fans and they in turn purchase more games knowing their quality. Which leads to more funding for other games that might appeal to a narrower market base.

Again this is just my 2 cents

Ben

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The tragedy of war is that it uses man's best to do man's worst.
Henry Fosdick

(in reply to Buck Beach)
Post #: 57
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/10/2004 4:45:29 AM   
33Vyper


Posts: 542
Joined: 10/20/2004
From: New Westminster BC
Status: offline 		Ya know....I have been playing the original PacWar since it was released. It still occupies space on my hard drive. So far WITP has far exceeded anything I had ever hoped would be improved from the original PacWar. Yes there are some tweaks that need to be done, but I do not see any major overhaul that the system needs. There are a few buttons out of place, the editor is a bit clunky but the overall gameplay and features currently offered are incredible.

I can see why you would not explore the "MedWar" as it would be to a very specific market. That and really who wants to be the Italian Navy??? okay...maybe i do a bit

I have been reading the forum for the GGWAW, lookin at screenshots, reading the AARs. To be honest, as someone on this thread said before...its like a big Risk game. The system looks simple and designed for the mass market appeal. Please dont get me wrong. I encourage Matrix to make some money, god knows you have to, to support efforts like WITP.

What I would like to see is a World at War with the kind of detail in WITP. You could be and axis country or allied country. Play one....play all. Play Switzerland if you wish. That in conjunction with multiplay capabilities where you and 5 friends could battle it out on a variety of fronts. I do realize that the game would cost 1500.00$ however I think it would be worth it.

Basically I just want to say Thank You to you guys and gals (you do have gals there right?) at Matrix, wargamers are a niche market and it is nice to see that companies are out there that are keeping the spirit alive.


(in reply to Chaplain)
Post #: 58
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/10/2004 5:02:21 AM   
Oleg Mastruko


Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		People I think many of you are being waayyy too harsh on 2by3 guys.

- No one (as far as I understood) said 1.40 is going to be last patch (nor last official patch) for WITP. Where did you read it? Perhaps I missed something.

- Even if WITP was never patched, and is still in v1.0, it would still be the best wargame ever released, period. At least IMHO. And yours too and you know it. So stop bitching

- GG WAW is fun and challenging game. You should definitiely check it out. Maurice was right in that many people here posted their generally bad opinion on WAW, while not realizing the mechanics of this game at all. If there is one game that should be thaught in schools, as it represents WW2 on a grand scale almost perfectly (in, like, 5-6 hours of your time), then it's WAW. I am grognard. I think WITP is the best game of all times. But I love WAW too (being the beta tester). So, you see, it's possible to love both of those games It does not hurt to at least try.

- UV Med - come on people, it was never more than wishful thinking... do you really want to play Italians in the Med? EXP day/night: 20/12? Commanders to make Chang Kai Shek's abysmal ratings look like he's next Sun Tzu? Come on. I'd love to see UV Med but frankly, given the WITPs enormous size, I think I can survive without UV Med just fine.

- War in Russia - must be good. Please make the PBEM secure (a la WITP) for us grogs, as the execution (as I understand) won't be simoultaneous. Bad security and IGO-UGO system of play ruined TOAW in the long run for PBEM grogs (although this game probably still ranks as huge commercial success for a wargame) so I am wary of this. I hope this Russo German game looks good. East Front needs some graphically good looking games!

- Civil War based on WAW engine - definitely on the "buy" list. Yes you'd be surprised to find out ACW has "fans" even outside of the US.

O.

_____________________________


(in reply to Embark)
Post #: 59
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/10/2004 5:03:39 AM   
Tanaka


Posts: 4378
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 33Vyper

Ya know....I have been playing the original PacWar since it was released. It still occupies space on my hard drive. So far WITP has far exceeded anything I had ever hoped would be improved from the original PacWar. Yes there are some tweaks that need to be done, but I do not see any major overhaul that the system needs. There are a few buttons out of place, the editor is a bit clunky but the overall gameplay and features currently offered are incredible.

I can see why you would not explore the "MedWar" as it would be to a very specific market. That and really who wants to be the Italian Navy??? okay...maybe i do a bit

I have been reading the forum for the GGWAW, lookin at screenshots, reading the AARs. To be honest, as someone on this thread said before...its like a big Risk game. The system looks simple and designed for the mass market appeal. Please dont get me wrong. I encourage Matrix to make some money, god knows you have to, to support efforts like WITP.

What I would like to see is a World at War with the kind of detail in WITP. You could be and axis country or allied country. Play one....play all. Play Switzerland if you wish. That in conjunction with multiplay capabilities where you and 5 friends could battle it out on a variety of fronts. I do realize that the game would cost 1500.00$ however I think it would be worth it.

Basically I just want to say Thank You to you guys and gals (you do have gals there right?) at Matrix, wargamers are a niche market and it is nice to see that companies are out there that are keeping the spirit alive.




hehe yes do War in Europe and then combine it with War in the Pacific and connect the maps and voila! a super World at War!

....goes off to dream...

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(in reply to 33Vyper)
Post #: 60
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