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RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/10/2004 2:36:52 AM

Hexed Gamer

Posts: 561
Joined: 6/24/2004
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quote:

I always thought that CL was supposed to be the Next "Steel Panther" game?

I have heard many a comment, and made a lots of them myself, to the effect Combat Leader would be the next logical extrapolation of the "Steel Panthers" experience.

The game really is quite a bit different in many ways though.
Although still sort of driving tanks and squads around when you get down to it.

I was originally just basically responding to a comment, that was initially a bit vague :)

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(in reply to Warfare1)

Post #: 31

RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/10/2004 2:59:38 AM

JJKettunen

Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
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You don't happen to be Von Rom by any chance?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warfare1

Well, look at the east front scenarios designed for TOAW.

Maybe there won't be thousands of counters - but it will be pretty close with both sides included. At the beginning of Barbarossa there were millions of Germans and Soviets on the east front. How many divisions is that?

At maximum Soviets had 517 divisions, can't remember the Axis max. number just now. Anyhow when destroyed divisions are counted, then the actual number raises well above one thousand, and could be thousands, I'll give you that. D.McBride's monster-scenarios were at regimental level, btw.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warfare1
Again, most of those units will be redundant since the Germans will be expected to ram through weak Soviet troops in the first few months.

A game employing hundreds and/or thousands of counters does not equal a challenging or sophisticated game. It simply means the player is faced with shoving around hundreds of counters.

Nothing has to be lost in gameplay; and there is no need to include the name of every single unit that fought on the east front.

At corps level, with 2 week or 1 month long turns, with a sophisticated game engine that includes weather, random events, etc, etc. . . could be a very enjoyable, challenging "grog" game.

It is obvious that you seek a beer and pretzels type of a game, isn't it? Nothing wrong with that, but such games exist already. What I am looking for is a WITP-type of a game, with lots of scenarios and possibility to play the whole campaign (which it could manage well). FE Kursk with Corps sized units would just be a bore.

In ideal game (of my dreams) AI could handle most of the units, and a player could choose how much micromanagement he wants. So one could handle everything by giving orders to Army Group/Front -commanders only or give orders straight to their subordinates down to a division level.

< Message edited by Keke -- 11/10/2004 3:05:23 AM >

_____________________________

Jyri Kettunen

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn

(in reply to Warfare1)

Post #: 32

RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/10/2004 3:49:43 AM

Warfare1

Posts: 658
Joined: 10/20/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

You don't happen to be Von Rom by any chance?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warfare1

Well, look at the east front scenarios designed for TOAW.

Maybe there won't be thousands of counters - but it will be pretty close with both sides included. At the beginning of Barbarossa there were millions of Germans and Soviets on the east front. How many divisions is that?

At maximum Soviets had 517 divisions, can't remember the Axis max. number just now. Anyhow when destroyed divisions are counted, then the actual number raises well above one thousand, and could be thousands, I'll give you that. D.McBride's monster-scenarios were at regimental level, btw.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warfare1
Again, most of those units will be redundant since the Germans will be expected to ram through weak Soviet troops in the first few months.

A game employing hundreds and/or thousands of counters does not equal a challenging or sophisticated game. It simply means the player is faced with shoving around hundreds of counters.

Nothing has to be lost in gameplay; and there is no need to include the name of every single unit that fought on the east front.

At corps level, with 2 week or 1 month long turns, with a sophisticated game engine that includes weather, random events, etc, etc. . . could be a very enjoyable, challenging "grog" game.

It is obvious that you seek a beer and pretzels type of a game, isn't it? Nothing wrong with that, but such games exist already. What I am looking for is a WITP-type of a game, with lots of scenarios and possibility to play the whole campaign (which it could manage well). FE Kursk with Corps sized units would just be a bore.

In ideal game (of my dreams) AI could handle most of the units, and a player could choose how much micromanagement he wants. So one could handle everything by giving orders to Army Group/Front -commanders only or give orders straight to their subordinates down to a division level.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

You don't happen to be Von Rom by any chance?

What are you talking about??

quote:

At maximum Soviets had 517 divisions, can't remember the Axis max. number just now. Anyhow when destroyed divisions are counted, then the actual number raises well above one thousand, and could be thousands, I'll give you that. D.McBride's monster-scenarios were at regimental level, btw.

OK, so first you said there would not be thousands of counters, now you admit there will be.

That is fine, if people want to play a longggg east front game. But, when I now load up an east front scenario in TOAW, fatigue sets in. Unless a person is retired and with no family, it will be a very difficult game to complete.

Let's be realistic here.

quote:

It is obvious that you seek a beer and pretzels type of a game, isn't it? Nothing wrong with that, but such games exist already. What I am looking for is a WITP-type of a game, with lots of scenarios and possibility to play the whole campaign (which it could manage well). FE Kursk with Corps sized units would just be a bore.

In ideal game (of my dreams) AI could handle most of the units, and a player could choose how much micromanagement he wants. So one could handle everything by giving orders to Army Group/Front -commanders only or give orders straight to their subordinates down to a division level.

There you go with the beer & pretezels analogy again.

I want a challenging east front game. But that challenge does not mean having thousands of counters; that is pure tedium.

Clearly, what you want is different from what I and many others seek.

I just don't see how the AI will be up to handling thousands of units, and PBEM for this type of game will be very difficult.

While I agree that giving orders to sub-units would be ideal, the AI and no current game system is up to that challenge.

I would love to play a good and challenging east front game that utilizes a new game engine and that requires thinking and strategy vs an endless array of counters.

< Message edited by Warfare1 -- 11/10/2004 1:52:59 AM >

(in reply to JJKettunen)

Post #: 33

RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/10/2004 4:25:16 AM

JJKettunen

Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warfare1
What are you talking about??

You don't fool me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warfare1
OK, so first you said there would not be thousands of counters, now you admit there will be.

No, there won't be thousands of counters at any one point. I meant that during the four year campaign, when destroyed divisions are counted, the overall number could well be near 2 thousand.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warfare1
That is fine, if people want to play a longggg east front game. But, when I now load up an east front scenario in TOAW, fatigue sets in. Unless a person is retired and with no family, it will be a very difficult game to complete.

Let's be realistic here.

Realistic about what? That you get fatigued with a long Eastern front game?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warfare1
There you go with the beer & pretezels analogy again.

Is there something wrong with that?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warfare1
I want a challenging east front game. But that challenge does not mean having thousands of counters; that is pure tedium.

For you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warfare1
Clearly, what you want is different from what I and many others seek.

Clearly, many people want to see the Eastern front game from 2by3 Games.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warfare1
I just don't see how the AI will be up to handling thousands of units, and PBEM for this type of game will be very difficult.

While I agree that giving orders to sub-units would be ideal, the AI and no current game system is up to that challenge.

I would love to play a good and challenging east front game that utilizes a new game engine and that requires thinking and strategy vs an endless array of counters.

As I mentioned I was just dreaming about sufficient micromanagement reducing AI. Anyhow a great number of counters don't diminish the need for thinking and strategy, rather vice versa.

< Message edited by Keke -- 11/10/2004 4:29:09 AM >

_____________________________

Jyri Kettunen

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn

(in reply to Warfare1)

Post #: 34

RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/10/2004 4:47:59 AM

Warfare1

Posts: 658
Joined: 10/20/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warfare1
What are you talking about??

You don't fool me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warfare1
OK, so first you said there would not be thousands of counters, now you admit there will be.

No, there won't be thousands of counters at any one point. I meant that during the four year campaign, when destroyed divisions are counted, the overall number could well be near 2 thousand.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warfare1
That is fine, if people want to play a longggg east front game. But, when I now load up an east front scenario in TOAW, fatigue sets in. Unless a person is retired and with no family, it will be a very difficult game to complete.

Let's be realistic here.

Realistic about what? That you get fatigued with a long Eastern front game?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warfare1
There you go with the beer & pretezels analogy again.

Is there something wrong with that?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warfare1
I want a challenging east front game. But that challenge does not mean having thousands of counters; that is pure tedium.

For you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warfare1
Clearly, what you want is different from what I and many others seek.

Clearly, many people want to see the Eastern front game from 2by3 Games.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warfare1
I just don't see how the AI will be up to handling thousands of units, and PBEM for this type of game will be very difficult.

While I agree that giving orders to sub-units would be ideal, the AI and no current game system is up to that challenge.

I would love to play a good and challenging east front game that utilizes a new game engine and that requires thinking and strategy vs an endless array of counters.

As I mentioned I was just dreaming about sufficient micromanagement reducing AI. Anyhow a great number of counters don't diminish the need for thinking and strategy, rather vice versa.

quote:

You don't fool me.

What are you talking about?

You now assume I am someone else?

I am someone who disagrees with what you have said.

Are you now becoming paranoid?

As for the rest:

If some people wish to spend endless hours per day moving hundreds and thousands of counters around, then all the power to them.

If people want to have a foretaste of this, they should download some of the monster east front scenarios for TOAW and try to play them through.

Many of us have jobs, families and other responsibilities, and would love to have an east front game that does not take an endless amount of time to play through.

A good, challenging east front game can be made without the need of including every unit that fought in that war.

Just look at 12 O'Clock High (another Grigsby game). It went into unimaginable detail, and was almost impossible to play through to completion.

You can make any game you want; the question is who will have the time and patience to buy it and play it through?

(in reply to JJKettunen)

Post #: 35

RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/10/2004 6:23:45 AM

Hexed Gamer

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I have a friend of mine, local friend, we both wanted a specific board game, both of us knew we would only be playing it against each other.

So we had it ordered into the store, and decided the first with the cash could score the purchase. It was pointless worrying over who got it, as we both knew we would not be playing it with anyone else at any rate.

The game was Fire in the East, and price tag was 100 bucks (Canadian) about 10 years ago.

Maybe it is just as well he grabbed it and not me.

Guess what, in 10 years he has never gotten it set up once.
I suppose he did me a sort of favour, because I doubt I would have ever gotten around to finding the space either.
6 feet by 8 feet is a lot of wargame.

Now if you put that on a computer monitor, sure, fine, you have aced the 6 foot by 8 foot problem.
But whether I move the counter with tweezers or a mouse, I still have to move it.
The game has 10 thousand counters, and it's just the war from 41 till 42.
Whether or not you like to argue over how many divisions existed or would eventually exist, it was a game with 10 thousand identifiable units.
If you cut that down to 1000 just for the hell of it, that's 1000 units all the same.

Now I love some games to death, but pushing around 1000 units each turn is still what it is eh.
Whether the game is as simple and easy as Steel Panthers or Strategic Command is likely not to entirely relevant.
Pushing around 1000 counters is still pushing around 1000 counters :)

And I highly doubt your "numbers" will ever be entirely impressive when compared to the numbers Hubert Cater will be pleasing with his SC2 design.

I am not afraid of lots of counters in a game.
I love to play my The Longest Day game (board game).
I also have Red Barricades for ASL.

But eventually a person just arbitrarly decides, "ok I have enough games for the eastern front that involve 1000s of counters".
So your real challenge, is finding "numbers" of players not already possessing several eastern front games with 1000s of counters.
It is just foolish to base sales off the easily made comments of guys that will say they want a game, but might not show up on release day.

And most wargamers I have seen, will say they want every wargame on the market.
But just ask David Heath about actual sales of something supposedly popular like Mega Campaigns.
It's an education.

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Post #: 36

RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/10/2004 6:34:23 AM

thecker

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Joined: 9/5/2004
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1000 units is not a big deal to move, it's also enjoyable figuring the tactics for your units, no matter how many, all of John Tiller's PzC games have over 1000 units and theyre both easy and fun to play, and yes they are played by grog's....
So each have their own taste you don't need to rationalize why your tastes are superior.

(in reply to Hexed Gamer)

Post #: 37

RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/10/2004 8:51:48 AM

Warfare1

Posts: 658
Joined: 10/20/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

I have a friend of mine, local friend, we both wanted a specific board game, both of us knew we would only be playing it against each other.

So we had it ordered into the store, and decided the first with the cash could score the purchase. It was pointless worrying over who got it, as we both knew we would not be playing it with anyone else at any rate.

The game was Fire in the East, and price tag was 100 bucks (Canadian) about 10 years ago.

Maybe it is just as well he grabbed it and not me.

Guess what, in 10 years he has never gotten it set up once.
I suppose he did me a sort of favour, because I doubt I would have ever gotten around to finding the space either.
6 feet by 8 feet is a lot of wargame.

Now if you put that on a computer monitor, sure, fine, you have aced the 6 foot by 8 foot problem.
But whether I move the counter with tweezers or a mouse, I still have to move it.
The game has 10 thousand counters, and it's just the war from 41 till 42.
Whether or not you like to argue over how many divisions existed or would eventually exist, it was a game with 10 thousand identifiable units.
If you cut that down to 1000 just for the hell of it, that's 1000 units all the same.

Now I love some games to death, but pushing around 1000 units each turn is still what it is eh.
Whether the game is as simple and easy as Steel Panthers or Strategic Command is likely not to entirely relevant.
Pushing around 1000 counters is still pushing around 1000 counters :)

And I highly doubt your "numbers" will ever be entirely impressive when compared to the numbers Hubert Cater will be pleasing with his SC2 design.

I am not afraid of lots of counters in a game.
I love to play my The Longest Day game (board game).
I also have Red Barricades for ASL.

But eventually a person just arbitrarly decides, "ok I have enough games for the eastern front that involve 1000s of counters".
So your real challenge, is finding "numbers" of players not already possessing several eastern front games with 1000s of counters.
It is just foolish to base sales off the easily made comments of guys that will say they want a game, but might not show up on release day.

And most wargamers I have seen, will say they want every wargame on the market.
But just ask David Heath about actual sales of something supposedly popular like Mega Campaigns.
It's an education.

Well said.

In the end though, it all comes down to personal preference.

Still, sometimes less is more, if you know what I mean.

Let me come back to 12 O' Clock High. It is a great game. It has everything in it. Every pilot and plane is modelled in that game. The long campaign is 500-700 turns. Yes, you heard me right.

However, how many copies were sold? How many have actually played the darn thing through to completion and still kept their sanity?

It was simply too much of a good thing. Prudence should have dictated that the game play should have been reduced by several hundred turns, and that certain abstractions should have been used.

I have played long marathon game sessions just like the next guy. And I have played some monster games. But surely there is a better way? Especially for a good, challenging East Front game?

I don't have all the answers for this, but perhaps there is some middle ground between a Third Reich type game and a 12 O' Clock High monster game.

More and more I like what I see in Strategic Command 2. Grogs have been championing Cater's game design. Is there something we can learn from this?

(in reply to Hexed Gamer)

Post #: 38

RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/10/2004 3:10:02 PM

wodin

Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline

Yes 12 O clock high and BoB got to bogged down. Such a shame as there is a good game underneath.

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Post #: 39

RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/10/2004 3:48:18 PM

Hexed Gamer

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The proof of the pudding comes when you tell a person, "ok you have 30 minutes of wargame time, what are you going to play?".

Now 30 minutes is 30 minutes regardless of how you spend it.
In 30 minutes what can you do?

In 30 minutes I can actually complete a lot of the battles in MC-SE. I actually did that a lot last summer during the beta test. Not all of the battles are that short of course.
In 30 minutes I can also make good head way in almost any Steel Panthers game.

In 30 minutes I can likely play several years of a Strategic Command game too if it's just me against the machine. Playing it solo I guess I would be a lot slower (playing more thoroughly).

In 30 minutes though, I am likely unable to get through a complete turn of most operational wargames worthy of mention.
And that just about covers all operational wargames too. The old the new included.

Games like HTTR have a bit better pace of action admittedly.

But the fact remains, operational wargames exist in perhaps the greatest degree of finite niche of our entire hobby.
I own several of these time eating, potentially micromanaged, ultimately detailed behemoths.
And, as the day has not genuinely lengthened, there remains yet still, only so many hours in a day.

So, you pick joe average grog wargamer. He likes em all, the big and the small.
You ask him what wargames he owns.
If he has 3 titles we would qualify as entirely grognard type operational wargames, chances are very good, whether he wants yet another, he won't have any realistic ability to fit yet another wargame into his already mostly booked solid wargame available spare time.

Soo, when a guy tells you "yes I want your wargame" keep in mind, part of him might be reacting the same way people react when they see yet another item of their "favourite hobby" on the shelf.

There's a reason I have hundreds of unread books and hundreds of unbuilt models eh :)

I wanted them.

Sure you might make a few bucks off of some of us who just don't know when we have enough.
The key is, do you have enough customer potential to make a profit in your game from a company perspective hehe.

I am NOT one of those persons that chants "gotta support the company lest they not be there tomorrow".
Nope, I am a wargamer through and through, but my concern is for Les.
I am not responsible for keeping your company alive.
That's your problem.

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Post #: 40

RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/10/2004 6:38:59 PM

Warfare1

Posts: 658
Joined: 10/20/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Yes 12 O clock high and BoB got to bogged down. Such a shame as there is a good game underneath.

I agree.

BoB wasn't as long.

But 12 O' Clock High was made too long. I love everything in the game. It was so well done. If only a patch could have been issued which increased the turns so that one turn = 2 weeks or more. Pity.

(in reply to wodin)

Post #: 41

RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/12/2004 10:49:46 PM

Stavka_lite

Posts: 171
Joined: 3/15/2004
From: Tucson
Status: offline

I have to throw in my 2 cents worth here. War in the East by SPI was mentioned by the Powers-that-be and in its board form was completely unplayable. It was inmpressive as could be but it was just unmanagable. However... Decision Games released the computerized version of War in Europe( both War in the West and The war in the East) and it was very playable. The only problem is that it did not have any sort of AI. I played this for several years(still have it) as PBEM and had a lot of fun. War in the East/West/Europe had some very abstracted parts (Air/Sea) which was rather annoying and I have been wishing for another War in the East game for some time and if WitP is any indicator then WitE should be great. Some of us grogs just love these monster games and are willing to pay for them(within reason). 80 bucks for WitP was a bargain in my book and 150 dollars for a East front game of the same detail would be a bargain as well.

I would venture to say that WitP sales have been sufficient enough to encourage Matrix Games to give WitEast a go rather that WitMed or WitWest. Even with all of the Nay-sayers a modern detail oriented game for the east front needs to be made and released.

My only question is where is the new War in Russia/East Front forum ????

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Post #: 42

RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/12/2004 11:01:09 PM

wodin

Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline

Best 30 mins of wargaming for me is Squad Battles. Pace is perfect.

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Post #: 43

RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/12/2004 11:37:26 PM

pasternakski

Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stavka_lite

I have to throw in my 2 cents worth here. War in the East by SPI was mentioned by the Powers-that-be and in its board form was completely unplayable.

Says who? I have played this game in my wargaming club off and on for over twenty years. It is an excellent game system that puts potential players off due to its size, not its complexity or unplayability.

quote:

I would venture to say that WitP sales have been sufficient enough to encourage Matrix Games to give WitEast a go rather that WitMed or WitWest. Even with all of the Nay-sayers a modern detail oriented game for the east front needs to be made and released.

As is obvious from Matrix/2by3 posts on the subject, this game will most definitely not be developed using the WitP engine (and, I hope fortunately, not the GGWaW engine, either). I hope that it's a good game. I won't be buying it.

(in reply to Stavka_lite)

Post #: 44

RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/13/2004 10:10:55 AM

Stavka_lite

Posts: 171
Joined: 3/15/2004
From: Tucson
Status: offline

quote:

Says who? I have played this game in my wargaming club off and on for over twenty years. It is an excellent game system that puts potential players off due to its size, not its complexity or unplayability.

You hit the nail right on the head. I never really had the space to play this game properly and it set on my shelf for several years, along with War in the West, until the wife made me throw it out. The system works just fine but if you can't leave the game set up IMHO then it is unplayable. You just can't play this game in one sitting but with the Computerized version, even with all of its quirks, it can be played very easily. I still have the Computer version and the wife can't make me throw this one away as I can hide the disks

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Post #: 45

RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/13/2004 2:57:03 PM

Hexed Gamer

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Occasionally, I think designers "make" some games, for the same questionable dumb reasons some of us guys buy the silly monstrosities hehe.

I knew it was a monster when I bought it, I knew my home had not expanded when I bought it, I was aware the day had not grown longer when I bought it.

Yet I bought it.

Why?

Because I wanted it.

The important thing though, was did I need it?

Go ahead though guys, 2by3 or Schwerpunct or HPS, it is not fully totally really relevant to this point made here.

Just because you CAN make the game, will not make us "need" the game.

Lots might actually buy the game.

But if you can't write up 5 after action reports the first month from your first 5 games you played, you don't win a cookie hehe.

Today I could sit down and play through 5 full games of Strategic Command (if I really wanted to and do nothing else with the day). And that says a lot.

You WON'T be able to make your nifty new all inclusive day one till end of the war war in the east wargame able to say that if you make it the regimental/divisional monster game of your dreams.

Sure it will "look" great. And I am sure it will have the same price tag all my other monster games wore. And as a simulation, I am sure it will be a testimony to accuracy and detail.

But it won't be the equal in playable that SC enjoys.

I like to buy games like the next guy. Nothing is more cool than "acquiring" a cool wargame.

But actually finishing one is a great magnitude more fun than just staring at the game on the shelf.

My buddy would likely sell me his defacto never used copy of Fire in the East for a song.
And with so brutally careful planning, and a lot of sacrifice, I might even be able to get it set up, sort of.

Chances of me actually playing though .... I have a better chance of curing hair loss :)

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(in reply to Stavka_lite)

Post #: 46

RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/23/2004 5:52:28 AM

ladner

Posts: 338
Joined: 8/24/2001
From: Virginia USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

Well, there's the beer and pretzels -crowd, who want something in line with Third Reich, and then there are more serious grogs who want another Grigsby design...

Agreed. Which is why I will not be happy until 2by3 makes a game that incorporates the eventual East Front game with the new engine and throws in naval combat like WiTP but covers the whole war Atlantic and Pacific 1939-1945. Only other requirements would be 60 mile hexes, one week turns, and player controlled production/R&D.

The only caveat on the player controlled production/R&D would be some limiting factor so you cannot have a FW-190 only Luftwaffe or entire Mech Corps of JS-IIIs. Similarly I think they could use something similar to the political points of WiTP, perhaps influence points for 'un-historical' choices whether it be altering war entry, or drastically changing production/R&D priorities. This way there is some degree of freedom, the player is not completely forced down a pre-determined path, but alternate universe game-play like Hearts of Iron is not possible.

Granted such a game would probably only apeal to the real fanatics who play WiTP on one day turns. But I would be intrigued by such a game and would pay handsomely for it. Would be willing to pay up to $150.00 for such game (2xWiTP

). Provided there was a long term comitment with regards to patching/tech support by the developer.

< Message edited by ladner -- 11/23/2004 4:06:59 AM >

(in reply to JJKettunen)

Post #: 47

RE: When will the East Front game get started - 11/23/2004 6:00:14 AM

pasternakski

Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stavka_lite
I never really had the space to play this game properly and it set on my shelf for several years, along with War in the West, until the wife made me throw it out. The system works just fine but if you can't leave the game set up IMHO then it is unplayable. You just can't play this game in one sitting but with the Computerized version, even with all of its quirks, it can be played very easily. I still have the Computer version and the wife can't make me throw this one away as I can hide the disks

Hehehe. Sounds like you've got a great home life. Our advantage (in addition to most of us being single) is that we have the back half of a strip mall game store. We have a whole bunch of utility tables we can set up to accommodate any size game we're interested in playing. Best of all, when it's time to go home, we just turn out the lights and lock the door on the way out. Woe be to he who would even think about disturbing anything before we get back to fire up the next turn.

(in reply to Stavka_lite)

Post #: 48