RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> The War Room >> RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?

Page: << < prev 2 3 [4] 5 6 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/9/2004 11:54:31 PM

2ndACR

Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline

I am sorry to see him go, but all of the "why won't it work" questions just irritate me, especially after we tell him why it will not work.

Yes, he can probably take Russia, but then he is screwed the rest of the game. I think me and Ron have progressed farther in a PBEM than just about any one else, and just by delaying the invasions of Java and Palembang until May 42 has caused me problems to no end. You just can not give an allied opponent the time to fortify the DEI, PI, Malaya.

You only have a limited amount of time to secure these areas for relative ease. Delay it for a couple of month? I think not. He is talking about not even invading any of these areas until March 42 at the earliest. No way. He would only have 2 months to secure the whole place before his economy grinds to a halt. Yes, he would have freed up the Manchuria army for use, but he will not have the PP's to use them to secure any of these areas. Yes he can use them in China and India (after months of marching) but with what will he supply them with?

I do not see it as a feasible plan IMO.

(in reply to tsimmonds)

Post #: 91

RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/10/2004 12:16:55 AM

dereck

Posts: 2800
Joined: 9/7/2004
From: Romulus, MI
Status: offline

People said the "Atlantic Wall" was unbreakable; that if men were meant to fly god would have given them wings; that man would never walk on the moon; that the sound barrier was unbreakable.

Despite what all the "experts" said all of the above was accomplished.

Why don't all of you give Hirohito a break? If you have questions about his strategies attack the strategies and not the man.

You may agree or disagree with his strategies but he definitely gets a discussion going and through discussion is where ideas come from. I'm sure he's planted many ideas inside everybody's minds through his threads.

_____________________________

PO2 US Navy (1980-1986);
USS Midway CV-41 (1981-1984)
Whidbey Island, WA (1984-1986)
Naval Reserve (1986-1992)

(in reply to 2ndACR)

Post #: 92

RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/10/2004 12:24:24 AM

WiTP_Dude

Posts: 1434
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dereck

Why don't all of you give Hirohito a break? If you have questions about his strategies attack the strategies and not the man.

I agree Hirohito should not be "attacked", however his dubious assertion that he has vast experience with the game should be questioned. Many of his comments clearly suggest he has played very little WiTP, if at all. Therefore his "advice" on WiTP strategy is flawed from the get go. When he then makes statements that he knows this or that strategy will work because of his experience, it is clearly BS.

(in reply to dereck)

Post #: 93

RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/10/2004 12:26:16 AM

Oznoyng

Posts: 818
Joined: 4/16/2004
From: Mars
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace
Remember this Hirohito, it is a general house rule among many players not to use ASW TFs, or to use small ones. Erego, to follow the spirit of this rule, you won't have several ASW TFs floating around. Remember, my point is to hamper the Russia first strategy, but the MAIN point is to use the 6 or so months you will give me to mine points, and set up good defenses to halt you from grabbing the PI and Malay. Again, you are not reading my posts. My mine laying submarines will mine the waters around Japan. My actual Mine laying surface ships will mine areas that you will have to transit to get to Malay, India, DEI, and PI. You're airforce won't be as effective there, especially if I can reinforce with P-40 groups from the States.

Again, my plan is not to "ruin" the Russia First Strategy. My plan is to take advantage of you doing that to speed up my advance across the Pacific, to force Japan to her knees. I cannot stop Russia from falling, that is a given. But it does give me 4 to 6 months to better prepare my Asiatic assets, to stop or delay the eventual invasion.

Before replaying, read my posts clearly.

I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate for a bit:

Have you looked at the map? You only have to transit one shallow water hex which is adjacent to a major Japanese port/airfield, in order to move supply and troops from Japan to Manchukuo. (Sasebo -> port west of Pusan)

If you want to come into that threat environment to hunt transports, you are creating an ideal situation for the IJN. Shallow water. One hex from a major airfield capable of conducting *serious* ASW patrols *and* a major port capable of saving most torpedo'd ships? If I had to pick an ASW battleground, that'd be the one I'd pick.

Oh, and by the way, if you mine that one hex, the IJ player is justified in adding a half dozen ASW capable MSW's to my TF escorts. Four to six mixed DD's, PC's, and PG's for standard escort, and a half dozen MSW to combat the heavy mining by the allies... Buh-bye subs. All of this assumes that the house rule for ASW TF's is in place - which I would not anticipate being the case.

(in reply to Tankerace)

Post #: 94

RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/10/2004 12:31:19 AM

Zeta16

Posts: 1199
Joined: 11/20/2002
From: Columbus. Ohio
Status: offline

Well I think it is my turn to reply. IN the Dudev.Zeta game, he was taken a lot of the pacfic and china. He has taken most of the DEI except Palembang. However, he has not taken Sinapore or Rangoon. From there I am starting to pound his HI and oil and resources. I don't know how much damage it is doing, but if he takes Palembang I will turn it into rubble. He has lost over 600 ships and many aircraft. I have no clue what his supply and HI production is with out taking all of the DEI by late October. So I think if you neglect things in the DEI, Malya, and the phillipines for a while it is really going to cost the Japanese. They will have a shortage of good pilots quick. Then things don't always go the way you want them to go.

_____________________________

"Ours was the first revolution in the history of mankind that truly reversed the course of government, and with three little words: 'We the people.' 'We the people' tell the government what to do, it doesn't tell us." -Ronald Reagan

(in reply to dereck)

Post #: 95

RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/10/2004 12:45:51 AM

2ndACR

Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline

I need to amend my comment. me and Ron are in July 42. but we are playing single day turns. I forgot some people are playing multi-day turns so they are past us.

We are currently knocking out a month every week of real time. Averaging 4-6 turns per day sometimes more.

My ship loss is currently about 120, mainly AP's. That is what happens when you give the Allied player time to fortify his hold on the SRA. Most of my ship losses have come in the last 3 months. I have MANY more banged up and in for repairs.

I have had 2 divisions completely mangled, 2 more that will need extensive refit to get up to strength. Ron has inserted alot of supply, air units and at least 2 Aus brigades and maybe an Aussie division into Java. I am paying a fearful price for delaying the invasion.

(in reply to Zeta16)

Post #: 96

RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/10/2004 1:01:41 AM

Mynok

Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline

From an overall strategic perspective, I don't quite understand why he wants to go to India after China. It would seem more prudent once China is finished to take SE Asia and the DEI/PI with all those freed up divisions. Sure, it will be harder than in early 42, and the DEI oil resources may be far more heavily damaged once taken due to ENG buildup during the delay, but that would be in some portion counteracted by the additional Soviet and Chinese resources/oil. Heck, Java probably becomes somewhat unnecessary to take with the Soviet oil on board.

(in reply to Zeta16)

Post #: 97

RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/10/2004 1:03:12 AM

Oznoyng

Posts: 818
Joined: 4/16/2004
From: Mars
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

I am sorry to see him go, but all of the "why won't it work" questions just irritate me, especially after we tell him why it will not work.

Yes, he can probably take Russia, but then he is screwed the rest of the game. I think me and Ron have progressed farther in a PBEM than just about any one else, and just by delaying the invasions of Java and Palembang until May 42 has caused me problems to no end. You just can not give an allied opponent the time to fortify the DEI, PI, Malaya.

You only have a limited amount of time to secure these areas for relative ease. Delay it for a couple of month? I think not. He is talking about not even invading any of these areas until March 42 at the earliest. No way. He would only have 2 months to secure the whole place before his economy grinds to a halt. Yes, he would have freed up the Manchuria army for use, but he will not have the PP's to use them to secure any of these areas. Yes he can use them in China and India (after months of marching) but with what will he supply them with?

I do not see it as a feasible plan IMO.

Actually, capture of resources and more importantly Oil from Ohka would lessen the impact of the delay. You would capture Ohka's 400 oil centers, plus the accumulated Oil stockpiles in capturing Russia. With the undamaged captured oil, you could run the Japanese economy for two more months. Adding Ohka would add 2400 oil per day = 72,000 per month or roughly 420000 oil for the 6 months til May 42. That adds another 2 months, so your window becomes 4 months, not 2.

(in reply to 2ndACR)

Post #: 98

RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/10/2004 1:07:19 AM

Honda

Posts: 953
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Karlovac, Croatia
Status: offline

There. You scared him away. You happy now guys? Now I have to go back to bothering Pauk for

If that's what you wanted - shame on you!

BTW, the whole Russia idea holds water and sure beats the hell out of waiting for the slow kill to come.
Victory points for president!
Noone can say for sure what happens in 43+. How much victory points, save the autovictory, will ensure Jap victory? No answers. And all that multiplied by the fact that noone's finished the game yet. It's young and will be for at least a year or so. There are no certanties yet. Japan has a little for everybody and if she can concentrate it in one spot things could get ugly for the Allies.
What does it all come down to? Individual skill. Who ever manages to get just a tiny percent more out of the engagements will win. No matter what strategy.

(in reply to 2ndACR)

Post #: 99

RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/10/2004 1:12:42 AM

moses

Posts: 2252
Joined: 7/7/2002
Status: offline

I think that while the idea is historically unsound it will probably be successful in the game and I would like to see someone try it. It will demonstrate what I think most already know. Continintal land combat needs to be slowed down.

(in reply to Honda)

Post #: 100

RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/10/2004 1:19:16 AM

Oznoyng

Posts: 818
Joined: 4/16/2004
From: Mars
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

From an overall strategic perspective, I don't quite understand why he wants to go to India after China. It would seem more prudent once China is finished to take SE Asia and the DEI/PI with all those freed up divisions. Sure, it will be harder than in early 42, and the DEI oil resources may be far more heavily damaged once taken due to ENG buildup during the delay, but that would be in some portion counteracted by the additional Soviet and Chinese resources/oil. Heck, Java probably becomes somewhat unnecessary to take with the Soviet oil on board.

Soviet and Chinese oil account for 625 oil centers: 400 at Ohka, 125 at Langchou, 25 at Sian, and 75 at Chingking. If you go as far as Rangoon and Lashio, you get another 100 (50 each). Palembang alone accounts for 700 oil centers. Borneo (Brunei 300, Miri 100, Tarakan 100, and Balikpapan 100) is another 800. Java is definately lower priority from a resource standpoint with only 200 Oil. However, the plethora of size 4 airbases in Java mean it needs to be taken to secure the other two.

(in reply to Mynok)

Post #: 101

RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/10/2004 2:33:38 AM

2ndACR

Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline

Okay, he gets 4 months instead of 2. I delayed the invasion of Java until May 42 and I still say that to wait until then is just asking for headaches. It is now July 42 and I have taken Batvia and Merak and that is it so far in 2 months of combat.

I now have 4 full divisions and a full brigade on Java near Batvia, I have a division and brigade stuck in the middle of Java (got hit with the retreat bug). Now we have found another bug that will not allow my 4 full strength divisions to advance anymore towards the Allied bases. No clue why. I think the ZOC rules are preventing my advance.

But you just can not give the Allied player that much time to fortify and reinforce the SRA region. If you have not invaded Java by Feb 42, you are just asking for a butt kicking. As soon as Singapore is captured the Japanese player needs to immediatly go for Java.

My opinion of course.

(in reply to Oznoyng)

Post #: 102

RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/10/2004 2:36:28 AM

Halsey

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline

Against the AI, the Russia First strategy would probably work. With that being said, the Russian gambit against a human opponent would most certainly fail. A human is not going to just sit back and let the fall of Russia happen. It would certainly mean some ferocious fighting in the Aleutian area though.

_____________________________

(in reply to moses)

Post #: 103

RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/10/2004 3:27:28 AM

Honda

Posts: 953
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Karlovac, Croatia
Status: offline

...and that Aleutian reaction is just what the Jap needs. An early oportunity to engage USN. The later it comes the more VPs the Allies win as Jap losses rise. The battle doesn't even have to be a tactical victory for Japan as long as they succed in inflicting serious losses and go through with the Siberian campaign. What good is a good defensive position in '44 when losses will be 10-1. In '42 they will be much less. When Corsairs start being worth 2 VPs, maybe I'll change my mind

. Till then, I think Jap has to do all in his(ot her) power to draw out USN before 43 sets in. The Russia gambit might be the best way to do that. At least, from where I'm standing now. We'll probably be laughing at some of the strategies in a few months time but till then we have to do with what we got.
So, I vote - Russia!

(in reply to Halsey)

Post #: 104

RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/10/2004 4:30:55 AM

moses

Posts: 2252
Joined: 7/7/2002
Status: offline

The problem is that there is little the human can do in this case. If the JP player shifts 5 china divisions and 5 of the 12 SRA divisions to Russia what will the Russian do. There is no way to shift outside forces into Russia. He has to fight with what he has. The only question is are those 10 divisions enough to defeat Russia in a short period of time. If you can do this in three or four months then you've freed up enough Divisions to take China quickly. Then you have a whole bunch of free manpower with nothing to fight. Plus quite a few VP as well.

In china the loss of five divisions will just mean you sit tight till russia falls. China won't be able to do much.

The 7 Divisions left to the SRA will still be able to launch some offensives. It's the navy that matters most. You won't be able to accomplish as much as fast but the allies can't do much either without navel superiority.

Once the five SRA divisions are returned say in early May you can clean up what you've failed to accomplish. As long as the JP player avoids a navel disaster I see no reason why he couldn't achieve the historical JP limits of advance by end of 42 with the exception that China and Russia are now gone.

BTW I consider the above strategy gamey and totally implausable historically. I have not tested it. However I can see no reason why it would have to fail in the game.

It really all depends on how tough the russians are.

< Message edited by moses -- 11/9/2004 8:31:27 PM >

(in reply to Halsey)

Post #: 105

RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/10/2004 1:03:00 PM

WhoCares

Posts: 653
Joined: 7/6/2004
Status: offline

I wouldn't cancel the Malaya Campaign and not strip it of more then one division. Instead I would reduce my invasion of Luzon - most allied players will run for Manila-Clark-Bataan early on anyway, and those could be contained with ~50000 troopers instead of 100000 to conquer it. The allied players would not dare to go on an offense, without a source of supplies and no naval and air support.

--more to come - going for lunch

Edit: not much more to come as it is now pretty much covered by grraven2004 and moses.

< Message edited by WhoCares -- 11/10/2004 3:33:28 PM >

(in reply to moses)

Post #: 106

RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/10/2004 1:35:47 PM

grraven2004

Posts: 273
Joined: 3/4/2004
From: Cuyahoga Falls OH
Status: offline

I am going to try the Russian gambit. Its mid February 42. I have troops in Singapore and Manila. Only days away from them falling. I have all of Borneo. Most of the troops in China are locked at Changsha and a few other cities (last count had the Allied troop count at 30 units at Changsha). I have moved 3 divisions into Manchuria. I plan on doing a two pronged attack on Vladivostok. I also have large troop concentrations for the middle and northern large airfields. I have 4-5 Betty groups ready to take out any plane dumb enough to try and bomb my industry. I also have 3 Sally and 2 Lilly groups ready for Russia.

I am under no illusion that this is going to be easy. I do feel that if done correctly I can take Russia with the forces there. This will keep the pressure on cleaning up the rest of the PI, Malaya, and Starting to lay the ground work for the DEI bases.

I have Kendari and Kuching. From these bases I have been able to keep track of all ALlied shipping coming into the DEI. So far my opponent hasn't gotten too brave about pushing troops into that area to help out the Dutch. If he were I have enough Shipping and squadrons in the area to make that a foolish effort on his part.

If anyone is interested I can start an AAR on how this strategy goes for better or worse.
Let me know guys if you want me to do that.

Grraven

_____________________________

Human by birth

Klingon By choice!

Sig changed per Erik's request

(in reply to 2ndACR)

Post #: 107

RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/10/2004 3:12:48 PM

2ndACR

Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline

You might as well do an AAR on it. Of course it will be a modified version of it. Now, taking the SRA and then going for Russia with those forces might just be doable. But before invading the SRA, I do not think it is feasible.

(in reply to grraven2004)

Post #: 108

RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/10/2004 3:49:24 PM

moses

Posts: 2252
Joined: 7/7/2002
Status: offline

I would like to see a game using 5 SRA divisions and 5 Chinese Divisions from the start to attack Russia as soon as they can get into place. ( I would love to do it but I have two games in progress, a day job, and a wife).

1 division and a brigade can keep the lid on in Burma. 3 Divisions will be able to push slowly toward Singapore and may reach but probably not take that city on their own. Use two divisions and a brigade or two to work on the PI forces. You won't defeat the allies here anytime soon but you keep them fighting and burning supply. With the last Division and all the small units you have all over you can still take good chunks of the SRA. The west coast of borneo can be taken fairly easily and there is no reason why you can't take all of Borneo, and Kendari isolating the PI.

Sure you're not going to be able to take everything. Java will hold forever and you will have to deal with bombing attacks from these areas. But JP airpower is superior at this stage and these threats can be contained. If the U.S. tries invading anything in the central pacific KB will crush it.

If Russia can be defeated in a short period (2-3 months) then the SRA divisions can be returned to finish the job behind schedual. Sure the allies will be dug in but in the PI the constraint will be supply and in Java there's just not that many troops to hold once Japan gets there in force.

Of course if Russia is tougher than it looks and can hold out longer then a few months, then Japan is in a world of hurt.

< Message edited by moses -- 11/10/2004 7:51:12 AM >

(in reply to 2ndACR)

Post #: 109

RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/10/2004 3:53:59 PM

2ndACR

Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline

This really needs to be done in a PBEM game though. Against the AI it will be easy to accomplish. Unless the Russian bear is that strong.

(in reply to moses)

Post #: 110

RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/10/2004 4:03:53 PM

moses

Posts: 2252
Joined: 7/7/2002
Status: offline

Yes of course. A game vs the AI would be meaningless unless of course Russia wins in which the whold strategy goes into the dustbin.

Maybe someone can edit 10 divisions to russia and do a quick head to head battle with the russian theater only to see if it is feasable to take out russia with this force. This would be useful and wouln't take all that much time.

< Message edited by moses -- 11/10/2004 8:05:41 AM >

(in reply to 2ndACR)

Post #: 111

RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/10/2004 4:38:31 PM

2ndACR

Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline

True, I might just try a head to head, forgot about that. Just to see how much I can screw up the Japanese player and make him pay. Have to be non historic start though. I am going to try is initial strategy of ignoring the SRA first.

I will start an AAR for this over in the AAR forum. Let us just see what happens.

(in reply to moses)

Post #: 112

RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/10/2004 5:14:15 PM

moses

Posts: 2252
Joined: 7/7/2002
Status: offline

head to head is awful slow if you play the whole war. I was thinking more of turning off everything except russia so you can play 30 days in 4 or 5 hours and get results as to how fast russia can be subdued.

I did tests with China like this between patches and was able to get 5 months into the game in 3 or 4 days.

(in reply to 2ndACR)

Post #: 113

RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/10/2004 5:17:44 PM

moses

Posts: 2252
Joined: 7/7/2002
Status: offline

Also there is no need to ignore the SRA. Just do what you can with 7 divisions. Japan still should stay on the offensive. Things will be slowere since you have less troops as long as the navy is superior Japan should still make gains.

The only interesting thing to me is how fast can the russian be subdued.

(in reply to moses)

Post #: 114

RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/10/2004 6:12:59 PM

2ndACR

Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline

I already ran 1 turn. I will do limited attacks in the SRA area as the Japanese. As the Allies, since I know what is going to happen, I am going to try and play as an Allied opponent will. But I will also try and screw up the Japanese plans where possible. I gave no orders to any Allied unit except China. Once the attack occurs in Russia, we will see what happens.

The AAR has been started.

< Message edited by 2ndACR -- 11/10/2004 10:22:42 AM >

(in reply to moses)

Post #: 115

RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/11/2004 2:26:57 PM

Hirohito

Posts: 116
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Halsey

Against the AI, the Russia First strategy would probably work. With that being said, the Russian gambit against a human opponent would most certainly fail. A human is not going to just sit back and let the fall of Russia happen. It would certainly mean some ferocious fighting in the Aleutian area though.

How do you propose to stop the fall of Russia? Your forces will be cut into three groups which are cut off from supply and from each other. Several of your units are static and you can't move them. The attack was a total surprise. Your units are cut off and surrounded and superior forces are fighting the cut off units one group at a time using battles of encirclment. The empire can send supplies to the russian front via transport over one shallow water hex. You cannot interdict this traffic. So, how will you rescue the Russians? Send a force from America? Where will they land? How will they be resupplied? How will they get past the japanese air power in the home islands? How will they get past the IJN?

You can't save the Russians.

Now, as to why one would take this strategy it is a simple answer. To free up the Kwantang army and air force and capture the oil production, resources, and HI in siberia. The kwantang army is then moved to china to aid in the early conquest of china.

The kwantang army and the forces in china are now freed up to invade burma and india.

That is why one would do this.

Hirohito

(in reply to Halsey)

Post #: 116

RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/11/2004 2:34:48 PM

Hirohito

Posts: 116
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: moses

The problem is that there is little the human can do in this case. If the JP player shifts 5 china divisions and 5 of the 12 SRA divisions to Russia what will the Russian do. There is no way to shift outside forces into Russia. He has to fight with what he has. The only question is are those 10 divisions enough to defeat Russia in a short period of time. If you can do this in three or four months then you've freed up enough Divisions to take China quickly. Then you have a whole bunch of free manpower with nothing to fight. Plus quite a few VP as well.

In china the loss of five divisions will just mean you sit tight till russia falls. China won't be able to do much.

The 7 Divisions left to the SRA will still be able to launch some offensives. It's the navy that matters most. You won't be able to accomplish as much as fast but the allies can't do much either without navel superiority.

Once the five SRA divisions are returned say in early May you can clean up what you've failed to accomplish. As long as the JP player avoids a navel disaster I see no reason why he couldn't achieve the historical JP limits of advance by end of 42 with the exception that China and Russia are now gone.

BTW I consider the above strategy gamey and totally implausable historically. I have not tested it. However I can see no reason why it would have to fail in the game.

It really all depends on how tough the russians are.

It is not implausable historically. The Japanese were bound by their pact with Hitler to go to war with russia when they entered the war. EVERYONE thought that they were going to invade russia on Dec 8. Even the Japanese government thought that. The Army insisted on a separate treaty with Russia because they had been badly mauled by Zhukov in the 30s in an undeclared war in mongolia. It is not implausable to think that the Army could have been overruled by the foreign ministry or that the Army might not have come to this decision.

From a military standpoint it made a lot more sense to attack Russia, than not to, as the vast majority of Russian troops were tied down facing the Germans and they weren't coming east under any circumstances with the Wermacht knocking on Moscow's door.

The Empire can get a very quick victory in Siberia and the Russian's cannot respond until at least '44, if they are even in the war then. The loss of reinforcements from Siberia in '41 coupled with the loss of resources, oil, HI, and manpower in Siberia, coupled with the interdiction of lend lease materials moving along the trans siberian railroad vastly complicates the Russian's war fighting capabilities against the germans. They might have even capitulated.

The german generals were shocked when they learned that the Empire was not invading Vladisvostok on Dec 8, so why is it "historically implausable"?

Hirohito

(in reply to moses)

Post #: 117

RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/11/2004 2:38:30 PM

Hirohito

Posts: 116
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

True, I might just try a head to head, forgot about that. Just to see how much I can screw up the Japanese player and make him pay. Have to be non historic start though. I am going to try is initial strategy of ignoring the SRA first.

I will start an AAR for this over in the AAR forum. Let us just see what happens.

You can't make the japanese player pay. The Russians are no threat,IF the campaign against them is run using battles of encirclement.

The chinese are no threat IF you send garrison troops to the coastal chinese cities and free up the divisions that are stuck there on garrison duty and move them to China proper.

The allied naval forces are too weak to pose a real threat.

The allies lack the transports to launch a major amphibious landing anywhere.

The allies lack quality planes and don't have enough numbers of planes to really hurt the Empire anywhere.

So, where and how will you make the Empire pay?

Hirohito

(in reply to 2ndACR)

Post #: 118

RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/11/2004 2:48:03 PM

Hirohito

Posts: 116
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: moses

Also there is no need to ignore the SRA. Just do what you can with 7 divisions. Japan still should stay on the offensive. Things will be slowere since you have less troops as long as the navy is superior Japan should still make gains.

The only interesting thing to me is how fast can the russian be subdued.

The Russia first strategy will fail if you don't abandon Kwajalein, Truk and Wake (assuming you conquered it), those troops are needed in China, to garrison the coastal cities and free up the divisions and mixed brigades there. 7 divisions vs SRA is too many. Those troops are needed in Russia.

One compromise I would make because it seems to be a pretty easy and quick win is taking out Borneo right away. Not many troops required to do it and nice oil production in return.

You can tie the brits down in malaysia by reinforcing the thailand cities on the malay peninsula, sending engineers and HQs there, and building up air bases and putting air units on naval attack. The Brits will attempt to drive you out of the peninsula at some point but will chew up troops and supplies in the failed attempt. Take the air base in the northern part of the malay peninsula on the other sideof bangkok, I forget the name of it. But, you don't need divisions to hold the peninsula, two mixed brigades should suffice. You can always reinforce later if need be.

Why invade PI? You can't take it. Just cut it off with air power and naval forces. Take it later

The Russia first strategy fails given the disposition you suggest.

Hirohito

(in reply to moses)

Post #: 119

RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post ... - 11/11/2004 3:01:19 PM

Hirohito

Posts: 116
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WiTP_Dude

quote:

ORIGINAL: dereck

Why don't all of you give Hirohito a break? If you have questions about his strategies attack the strategies and not the man.

I agree Hirohito should not be "attacked", however his dubious assertion that he has vast experience with the game should be questioned. Many of his comments clearly suggest he has played very little WiTP, if at all. Therefore his "advice" on WiTP strategy is flawed from the get go. When he then makes statements that he knows this or that strategy will work because of his experience, it is clearly BS.

I never said I had "vast" experience. I said I had experience. Which comments in particular suggest that I have played very little WITP, if at all? What advice is flawed and how is it flawed? I don't give advice on tactics, I present strategies. Most of the responses are either in the form of "it won't work because it won't work". No one yet has given any real argument that can be evaluated on its merits as to why the Russia first strategy wont' work. I never said that I knew the strategy would work because of my experience, I said in response to specific objections that what was objected was not my experience.

Again, Ihave to say what difference does it make if someone does or does not play WITP, a military campaign strategy can be evaluated outside of any game.

To date none of the "it won't work because it won't work" crowd has given any objections that make sense. I will summarize the objetions:

1. The Russian is too "strong".

The facts don't bear this out. The russian units are for the most part lightweight rifle divisions. They can easily be cut off from each other and from supply. Several Russian units are static.

2. The Russia first campaign will take "too long"

Not if it is well planned and well executed. The Empire, IF it brings the right forces to bear in the right places can quickly overrun siberia.

3. The Empire will run out of oil/resources/supplies.

You get more than enought oil/resources/hi/supplies from siberia and china to make up for delaying the SRA campaign.

4. My submarines will interdict the shipping bound for Russia.

This is laughable. PLEASE send your submarines to the sea of japan. We need the target practice.

5. The allies will be "too strong" in PI, DEI, Malaya, and Singapore if you delay the campaigns there a few months.

Only against an idiot. They can easily be cut off and starved out. Remember, the Empire will be bringing the Kwantan army, the bulk of the forces from China, the original SRA invasion force and any reinforcements received along the way to bear. The IJN will be intact unless the Japanese player is a total idiot. The air forces that historically sat the war out in Manchuko and China are now added to the fray.

Please, next time you insult me, know what the hell you are talking about.

Hirohito

(in reply to WiTP_Dude)

Post #: 120