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US WWII Officer Ranks - 11/28/2004 1:31:46 AM   
dereck


Posts: 2800
Joined: 9/7/2004
From: Romulus, MI
Status: offline 		I have WAY too much time on my hands today ...

*Added Warrant and Enlisted Ranks* Any Marines please help if you know the WWII Marine Ranks




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< Message edited by dereck -- 11/28/2004 2:32:36 AM >

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RE: US WWII Officer Ranks - 11/28/2004 1:41:03 AM   
mucky


Posts: 88
Joined: 11/18/2004
Status: offline 		What rank is this? FO




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RE: US WWII Officer Ranks - 11/28/2004 1:50:09 AM   
dereck


Posts: 2800
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From: Romulus, MI
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mucky

What rank is this? FO





Flight Officer. That is a British/Australian/new Zealand rank. It is NOT an American rank at all. The list I gave you was the list of official US military ranks. Generally, usually without exception, pilots in the US military are either commissioned officers (the list I gave your) or Warrent Officers (WO or CWO).

FO (Flight Officer), FLT (Flight Lieutenant), WCDR (Wing Commander), SLDR (Squadron Leader) are British/Commonwealth ranks.

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RE: US WWII Officer Ranks - 11/28/2004 1:54:06 AM   
mucky


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Status: offline 		ah i see, thanks!

(in reply to dereck)
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RE: US WWII Officer Ranks - 11/28/2004 1:59:37 AM   
dereck


Posts: 2800
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From: Romulus, MI
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mucky

ah i see, thanks!


The US Navy DOES have what they call Navy Aviators and Navy Flight Officers but the distinction is that Navy Aviators are PILOTS wheras Flight Officers are just officers who fly IN a plane and are not pilots. Regardless of that distinction they still have the Naval ranks listed above.

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RE: US WWII Officer Ranks - 11/28/2004 2:39:43 AM   
TheElf


Posts: 3870
Joined: 5/14/2003
From: Pax River, MD
Status: offline 		Flight officer

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RE: US WWII Officer Ranks - 11/28/2004 3:19:50 AM   
V2


Posts: 35
Joined: 8/14/2004
Status: offline 		In WWII there were US pilots (USMC and USN for sure...don't know about USAAF) who were NCO's. They were a minority of course. Also, WO's were pilots until recently (the last USMC WO pilot retired a coupla years ago.)

< Message edited by V2 -- 11/28/2004 1:20:40 AM >

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RE: US WWII Officer Ranks - 11/28/2004 3:38:18 AM   
RevRick


Posts: 2617
Joined: 9/16/2000
From: Thomasville, GA
Status: offline 		had to memorize that thing in boot camp. Luckily, I had a head start in my reading before in school, so it wasn't that bad. Some of the guys never got it. Of course, they also called the deck a floor, and the bulkheads walls, etc., etc., etc.

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RE: US WWII Officer Ranks - 11/28/2004 4:24:29 AM   
dereck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: V2

In WWII there were US pilots (USMC and USN for sure...don't know about USAAF) who were NCO's. They were a minority of course. Also, WO's were pilots until recently (the last USMC WO pilot retired a coupla years ago.)


I'm not sure about that. Can you name a pilot of a navy plane that wasn't a commissioned officer? The military back then was pretty rank conscious and if you were going to be a pilot of a plane they'd send you to a 30-day Officer Candidate School to get a commission before you'd get a plane.

I know the Japanese DID use NCOs as pilots but I don't think the US did.

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RE: US WWII Officer Ranks - 11/28/2004 5:51:21 AM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline 		Enlisted Pilots in the U.S.N. were known as Naval Aviation Pilots (NAP) and there were a lot of them. VF-2 was originally known as the "Flying Chiefs" due to the high number of NAP.

When Lexington was damaged in January, 1942, many Fighting Two Pilots were transferred to other squadrons. Fighting Six received 10 NAP:
Howard M. Sumrall, AMM1c
Doyle C. Barnes, AMM1c
Julius A. Achten, AMM1c
Clayton Allard, AMM1c
Tom F. Cheek, AMM1c
Beverly W. Reid, AMM1c
Thomas W. Rhodes, ARM1c
William H. Warden, AMM1c
Howard S. Packard, AMM1c
Homer W. Carter, AMM1c

By Coral Sea, VF-2 had been rebuilt and apparently had only a single NAP: Robert F. Kanze, AP2c.

As the war progressed, the level of training and responsibility for a pilot was considered appropriate for an officer and pilots were commissioned or warranted (including many ex-NAP).

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RE: US WWII Officer Ranks - 11/28/2004 5:58:39 AM   
dereck


Posts: 2800
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From: Romulus, MI
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Enlisted Pilots in the U.S.N. were known as Naval Aviation Pilots (NAP) and there were a lot of them. VF-2 was originally known as the "Flying Chiefs" due to the high number of NAP.

When Lexington was damaged in January, 1942, many Fighting Two Pilots were transferred to other squadrons. Fighting Six received 10 NAP:
Howard M. Sumrall, AMM1c
Doyle C. Barnes, AMM1c
Julius A. Achten, AMM1c
Clayton Allard, AMM1c
Tom F. Cheek, AMM1c
Beverly W. Reid, AMM1c
Thomas W. Rhodes, ARM1c
William H. Warden, AMM1c
Howard S. Packard, AMM1c
Homer W. Carter, AMM1c

By Coral Sea, VF-2 had been rebuilt and apparently had only a single NAP: Robert F. Kanze, AP2c.

As the war progressed, the level of training and responsibility for a pilot was considered appropriate for an officer and pilots were commissioned or warranted (including many ex-NAP).


I never knew this. Thank you very much for this information.

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RE: US WWII Officer Ranks - 11/28/2004 7:03:09 AM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
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From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		Yeah, there was a brief time, pre and early WW2 where NCOs (with flying experience) were made pilots. Ended up that it didn't take long to have enough pilot candiates, that were officers, to restrict it entirely to officers.

Also interesting factoid is that, in 1942 all US air-crew (sans pilot, copilot, bombadier, nav, which were alway officers) were the enlisted rank that they had "rightfully attained" (thru time in service etc). So you could (and frequently) ended up with with PFCs and Cpls as aircrew. However, as aircraft were lost over Europe, they found that that the Germans were very rank conscious in the PoW camps. So by 1943, it became to standard practice to promote anyone serving on an aircrew to the rank of Sgt, so as to improve their potential treatment as PoWs, if their aircraft were to be shot down.

-F-

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RE: US WWII Officer Ranks - 11/28/2004 7:34:53 AM   
rogueusmc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dereck

I have WAY too much time on my hands today ...

*Added Warrant and Enlisted Ranks* Any Marines please help if you know the WWII Marine Ranks




as of now, the Marine ranks are:

Non-rate ranks:
e-1 Private (no insignia)
e-2 Private First Class (one chevron)
e-3 Lance Corporal (one chevron w/ crossed rifles)

Non-commissioned Officers:
e-4 Corporal (two chevrons w/ crossed rifles)
e-5 Sargeant (three chevrons w/ crossed rifles)

Staff Non-commissioned Officers:
e-6 Staff Sargeant (three chevrons, one rocker w/ crossed rifles)
e-7 Gunnery Sargeant (three chevrons, two rockers w/ crossed rifles)
e-8 there are two
Master Sargeant (three chevrons, three rockers w/ crossed rifles)
This is a working rank so-to-speak...in charge of a motor pool or something like
that
First Sargeant (three chevrons, three rockers w/ a diamond)
This is more of an administrative rank...senior enlisted Marine at company level...
he's in charge of personel.
e-9 there are two of these also
Master Gunnery Sargeant (three chevrons, four rockers w/ crossed rifles)
This rank is like, but senior to, the Master Sargeant.
Sargeant Major (three chevrons, four rockers w/ star)
This rank is like a First Sargeant but at Battalion and above.
e-10 Sargeant Major of the Marine Corps (three chevrons, five rockers and ega)
There is only one in the Corps...senior enlisted Marine.

I do know that the Lance Corporal didn't exist then...the rest should be the same though I think. This is all from memory. Nor were there crossed rifles then.

< Message edited by rogueusmc -- 11/28/2004 12:49:42 AM >

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RE: US WWII Officer Ranks - 11/28/2004 8:19:07 AM   
madmickey

 

Posts: 1336
Joined: 2/11/2004
From: Calgary, Alberta
Status: offline 		Jack Pershing was also General of The Armies

John Joseph "Black Jack" Pershing (September 13, 1860 – July 15, 1948) was a soldier in the United States Army. Pershing eventually rose to the highest possible rank only held once before by George Washington: General of the Armies. He was born near Laclede, Missouri and graduated from United States Military Academy at West Point, New York in 1886.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_J._Pershing

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Post #: 14
RE: US WWII Officer Ranks - 11/28/2004 5:36:58 PM   
dereck


Posts: 2800
Joined: 9/7/2004
From: Romulus, MI
Status: offline 		All information I can find on Marine enlisted ranks are after 1959. I have the Marine Corps ranks (Officer and Enlisted) in my old Blue Jackets Manual I was issued in Navy Boot Camp in 1980 but that doesn't do me much good if the ranks I want are from World War II

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RE: US WWII Officer Ranks - 11/28/2004 5:37:57 PM   
dereck


Posts: 2800
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From: Romulus, MI
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quote:

ORIGINAL: madmickey

Jack Pershing was also General of The Armies

John Joseph "Black Jack" Pershing (September 13, 1860 – July 15, 1948) was a soldier in the United States Army. Pershing eventually rose to the highest possible rank only held once before by George Washington: General of the Armies. He was born near Laclede, Missouri and graduated from United States Military Academy at West Point, New York in 1886.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_J._Pershing


Thank you. I wondered if he had been but wasn't sure so I went with the one I knew was promoted to General of the Armies.

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RE: US WWII Officer Ranks - 11/28/2004 6:05:31 PM   
Twotribes


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From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		There was no LCpl in WW2. Cant remember if they had MSgt either. Otherwise same rank as now, with no crossed rifles under chevrons

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RE: US WWII Officer Ranks - 11/28/2004 6:10:46 PM   
dereck


Posts: 2800
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From: Romulus, MI
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

There was no LCpl in WW2. Cant remember if they had MSgt either. Otherwise same rank as now, with no crossed rifles under chevrons


If the Marines follow the same standard as the other services during WWII there won't be any of the E-8 and E-9 paygrades. I know the Navy was easy ... the Senior Chief and Master Chief ranks were just added.

So "tentatively" the WWII Marine Ranks would be?:

E7 - Sergeant Major or Master Gunnery Sergeant
E6 - Gunnery Sergeant
E5 - Staff Sergeant
E4 - Sergeant
E3 - Corporal
E2 - Private 1st Class
E1 - Private

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RE: US WWII Officer Ranks - 11/28/2004 6:15:53 PM   
PJJ

 

Posts: 167
Joined: 7/10/2004
Status: offline 		Didn't they also promote U. S. Grant to the rank of 'General of the Armies', or something like that?

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RE: US WWII Officer Ranks - 11/28/2004 6:24:23 PM   
dereck


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From: Romulus, MI
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PJJ

Didn't they also promote U. S. Grant to the rank of 'General of the Armies', or something like that?


He was promoted to Lieutenant General during the Civil War ... a rank that up to then had only been held by George Washington. Not sure if he was posthumously promoted though.

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RE: US WWII Officer Ranks - 11/28/2004 8:55:54 PM   
rogueusmc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dereck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

There was no LCpl in WW2. Cant remember if they had MSgt either. Otherwise same rank as now, with no crossed rifles under chevrons


If the Marines follow the same standard as the other services during WWII there won't be any of the E-8 and E-9 paygrades. I know the Navy was easy ... the Senior Chief and Master Chief ranks were just added.

So "tentatively" the WWII Marine Ranks would be?:

E7 - Sergeant Major or Master Gunnery Sergeant
E6 - Gunnery Sergeant
E5 - Staff Sergeant
E4 - Sergeant
E3 - Corporal
E2 - Private 1st Class
E1 - Private

They did still have a First Sargeant between Gunnery Sargeant and Sargeant Major.

IIRC, the Corporal was what is now Lance Corporal and what is now Corporal was called a Buck Sargeant.

< Message edited by rogueusmc -- 11/28/2004 12:57:43 PM >

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RE: US WWII Officer Ranks - 11/28/2004 9:04:37 PM   
dereck


Posts: 2800
Joined: 9/7/2004
From: Romulus, MI
Status: offline 		So instead of the 7 enlisted ranks of the other services the Marines had 8?

Is this correct then?:

E8 - Sergeant Major or Master Gunnery Sergeant
E7 - First Sergeant
E6 - Gunnery Sergeant
E5 - Staff Sergeant
E4 - Sergeant
E3 - Corporal
E2 - Private 1st Class
E1 - Private

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RE: US WWII Officer Ranks - 11/30/2004 2:46:56 AM   
Blackhorse


Posts: 1983
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From: Eastern US
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dereck

So instead of the 7 enlisted ranks of the other services the Marines had 8?

Is this correct then?:

E8 - Sergeant Major or Master Gunnery Sergeant
E7 - First Sergeant
E6 - Gunnery Sergeant
E5 - Staff Sergeant
E4 - Sergeant
E3 - Corporal
E2 - Private 1st Class
E1 - Private


Not quite accurate, I think. I know E4= Corporal, and E5 = Sergeant. Before "Lance Corporal" was introduced, E1 & E2 were both "Private" and E3 was "Private First Class" as they still are in Army:

E9 Sergeant Major (Senior Battalion NCO)
E8 First Sergeant (Senior Company NCO)
E7 Sergeant First Class ( Senior Platoon NCO)
E6 Staff Sergeant
E5 Sergeant (Squad Leader)
E4 Corporal (Section Leader)
E3 Private First Class [one stripe with rocker] = Marine Lance Corporal
E2 Private [one stripe] = Marine PFC
E1 Private [no stripe] = Marine Private

So I don't know what differences there would be in Marine vs. Army ranks in WWII except that a Army E7 Sergeant First Class would be a Gunnery Sergeant in the Marines?

< Message edited by Blackhorse -- 11/30/2004 1:03:31 AM >

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RE: US WWII Officer Ranks - 11/30/2004 3:08:55 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		Actually prior to standardization I dont think they used E grades. That is simply a standardization for purpose of pay and comparison to services.

In the army an E1 is a PV1 and an E2 is a PV2 dont know if those ranks exsisted in WW2, I would tend to think not. Just like I doubt that in WW2 there were two private ranks in the Marine Corps.

Today a GySgt is an E7, same as an Army Sgt Firstclass (SFC) in WW2 I doubt the army had a SFC did it?
And I dont think MSgt was a rank in the Marine Corps in WW2, I could be wrong, but I dont remember seeing that in anything I have read.

I also dont see Sgt Maj on the army list, so I doubt the Marine Corps had such a rank either. 1st Sgt was probably has high as it went.

Prior to standardization it was probably hard to judge rank structure between services. Paygrade wasnt an important consideration in WW2, now it is.

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Post #: 24
RE: US WWII Officer Ranks - 11/30/2004 3:11:09 AM   
Central Blue

 

Posts: 695
Joined: 8/20/2004
Status: offline 		just to confuse things:

http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/gunnyg/enlrank.html

quote:

in 1937, enlisted rank insignia was set up according to pay grade. Three basic types of insignia were prescribed: plain chevrons, chevrons with bars and chevrons with arcs. Here was provided for the first time a clearcut distinction between line and staff. The allocation of these new simplified insignia was as follows:

First Grade, Line (three chevrons and three arcs):
sergeants major
master gunnery sergeants
First Grade, Staff (three chevrons and three bars):
master technical sergeants
master technical sergeants (mess)
quartermaster sergeants
paymaster sergeants
Second Grade, Line (three chevrons and two arcs):
first sergeants
gunnery sergeants
Second Grade, Staff (three chevrons and two bars):
technical sergeants
technical sergeants (Paymaster's Department)
technical sergeants (mess)
drum majors
supply sergeants
Third Grade, Line (three chevrons and one arc):
platoon sergeants
Third Grade, Staff (three chevrons and one bar):
staff sergeants (clerical)
staff sergeants (mechanical)
staff sergeants (mess)
Fourth Grade (three chevrons):
sergeants
mess sergeants
chief cooks
drum sergeants
trumpet sergeants
Fifth Grade (two chevrons):
corporals
mess corporals
field cooks
drum corporals
trumpet corporals
Sixth Grade (one chevron):
privates 1st class
assistant cooks
drummers 1st class
trumpeters 1st class

The system of assigning insignia by pay grade rather than by rank or title remained in effect througout World War II. Although there were changes within the structure during the war -- for example, the first sergeant went up to the first pay grade in 1943 -- and new titles were added -- for example, stewards and steward's assistants, -- the insignia remained constant.


more USMC rank history here:
http://www20.brinkster.com/gunnyg/gyhistory.html

< Message edited by Central Blue -- 11/29/2004 5:17:44 PM >

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RE: US WWII Officer Ranks - 11/30/2004 3:30:30 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		Ok so ignoring the non command ranks and the support ranks you have the following:

SgtMaj and MGySgt
1stSgt and GySgt
PltSgt
Sgt
Cpl
Pvt1stclass

(in reply to Central Blue)
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