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RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/2/2004 1:00:54 AM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

And now I will back off a little with my screaming. All it takes is some word from the higher ups as to what is going on.

Thank you Joel.


Now that you've calmed down, think you could have a word with Ron please?

<, duck and run!>

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


(in reply to 2ndACR)
Post #: 31
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/2/2004 1:09:49 AM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
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From: Irving,Tx
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel



Now that you've calmed down, think you could have a word with Ron please?

<, duck and run!>


Lot of good that will do. He is a little on the obssessed side of things dealing with WITP. Besides, I said I will back off a little, not quit.

(in reply to dtravel)
Post #: 32
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/2/2004 2:49:44 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		Send saves for bugs to:

sirkid@cfl.rr.com

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 33
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/2/2004 4:12:32 AM   
Platoonist


Posts: 1342
Joined: 5/11/2003
From: Kila Hana
Status: offline 		Thanks Joel! A "now-hear-this" from the higher ups does a lot to help restore flagging morale.

As for Ron his rants get raves in my book.

_____________________________


(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 34
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/2/2004 9:46:37 AM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

Now that you've calmed down, think you could have a word with Ron please?

<, duck and run!>


Lot of good that will do. He is a little on the obssessed side of things dealing with WITP. Besides, I said I will back off a little, not quit.


right back atcha! Did I say anything about quitting? Did I even say the Q word? Noooo, I just said that you had calmed down. (You do know that even I was stupid enough to want to, I can't take drugs, don't you?)

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


(in reply to 2ndACR)
Post #: 35
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/2/2004 12:26:16 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		Eh? Are you...talking....about me? Are....you...talking about.........me?

1 this is 11, rant over....


I'll be watching......................................... I'll be cruising in the fleet boat in my sig, ready to fire a full salvo of duds, baby!!!













And yes. I'm obsessive!

< Message edited by Ron Saueracker -- 12/2/2004 5:27:40 AM >

_____________________________





Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to dtravel)
Post #: 36
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/2/2004 4:15:46 PM   
berto


Posts: 20708
Joined: 3/13/2002
From: metro Chicago, Illinois, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kaleun

...and Matrix provides a level of support much greater than any other gaming company...


Not to belittle the excellent Matrix/2by3 support, but there is at least one other gaming company that equals or betters them in the after-release support department.

Europa Universalis II was released in 2001. (EUII is a simulation of European/world history from 1419 through 1820.) The game's developer, Strategy First, has released eight major patches (and many more minor patches) since then, the latest being patch 1.08b, issued just a couple of weeks ago (on 11/19/2004). Europa Universalis II's forum community is as active and vocal as any of Matrix Games'. Three years after EUII's release, players continue to debate game balance issues, report bugs (by now very few, and minor), and suggest improvements. And the developers, despite publishing at least three major games in the meantime (Hearts of Iron, Victoria, Crusader Kings) continue to listen, respond, and issue patches (albeit less frequently over time).

Now that, too, is incredible support!

Just trying to set the record straight.

(in reply to kaleun)
Post #: 37
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/2/2004 4:29:30 PM   
Smiffus64

 

Posts: 105
Joined: 7/30/2004
From: Delft, the Netherlands
Status: offline 		praise Paradox Entertainment if you must, they are the developers. SF is just the publisher.

(in reply to berto)
Post #: 38
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/2/2004 4:59:40 PM   
sprior


Posts: 8596
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Portsmouth, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ready to fire a full salvo of duds, baby!!!



I bet you say that to all the girls!

_____________________________

"Grown ups are what's left when skool is finished."
"History started badly and hav been geting steadily worse."
- Nigel Molesworth.



(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 39
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/2/2004 5:49:21 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: berto

Not to belittle the excellent Matrix/2by3 support, but there is at least one other gaming company that equals or betters them in the after-release support department.

Europa Universalis II was released in 2001. (EUII is a simulation of European/world history from 1419 through 1820.) The game's developer, Strategy First, has released eight major patches (and many more minor patches) since then, the latest being patch 1.08b, issued just a couple of weeks ago (on 11/19/2004). Europa Universalis II's forum community is as active and vocal as any of Matrix Games'. Three years after EUII's release, players continue to debate game balance issues, report bugs (by now very few, and minor), and suggest improvements. And the developers, despite publishing at least three major games in the meantime (Hearts of Iron, Victoria, Crusader Kings) continue to listen, respond, and issue patches (albeit less frequently over time).

Now that, too, is incredible support!

Just trying to set the record straight.


Well, as others said too, it's not Strategy First that is giving the support. Actually it's not even Paradox Entertainment...but the Leading/Head Programmer Johan who makes those Beta Patches on his spare time, for free. And there is lot of enthusiastic players giving input and making excellent mods to game..like my favourite...AGCEEP.

Cheers,

M.S.

(in reply to berto)
Post #: 40
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/2/2004 6:23:48 PM   
berto


Posts: 20708
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From: metro Chicago, Illinois, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

quote:

ORIGINAL: berto

Not to belittle the excellent Matrix/2by3 support, but there is at least one other gaming company that equals or betters them in the after-release support department.

Europa Universalis II was released in 2001. (EUII is a simulation of European/world history from 1419 through 1820.) The game's developer, Strategy First, has released eight major patches...



Well, as others said too, it's not Strategy First that is giving the support. Actually it's not even Paradox Entertainment...but the Leading/Head Programmer Johan who makes those Beta Patches on his spare time, for free. And there is lot of enthusiastic players giving input and making excellent mods to game..like my favourite...AGCEEP.

Cheers,

M.S.


Yes, oops, my mistake. Paradox is the developer, and EUII is Johan's Labor of Love.

I haven't purchased WITP yet (shame on me, but I simply don't have the time to play it), so I don't know if what I am about to say applies to that game. But for games of WITP's (and EUII's) complexity and scope, it is imperative that they be open source in this sense: having plain-text data and logic files intelligible to non-programmers. Make the game scriptable, especially the AI, and throw in scenario, OOB, and map editors, too. That way, the game community can fix problems itself and not be dependent on developer/publisher support continuing indefinitely.

In other words, sell a game kit, not just a "finished" game. Maybe sell two versions, the game only at a lower price, and the game plus developer's kit at a higher price.

As I understand it, Gary Grigsby's World at War will be open, fixable, and moddable. How does the GGWAW implementation differ from WITP's?

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 41
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/2/2004 6:53:35 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		Well, the problem with a "game kit", as good an idea as it is, it generally must be incorporated into the design from the beginning.

For example, Neverwinter Nights. It's based on the Baldur's Gate engine(s). But they also -planned- on open sourcing it from the start. So the NwN engine evolved into a very different beast than the orginal BG engine. And by the time the original NwN was released, the NwN engine was -very- different than the BG engine from which it had it's start. Furthermore, and refit of the BG engine, to try to incorporate the innovations and scripting of NwN would have been a drastic undertaking. (What actually happened, was players using the NwN engine to rewrite the BG series as their own mods).

So the short is, I seriously doubt that WitP has planned as having such of "game kit", like the AI scripter of NwN. WitP certainly has it's DB editor, but that's just changing/adding figures in a DB, it's not actually altering the functions of the code. When/if they offer open source for WitP, there will surely be some utilities, but (as a dev myself), don't plan on a lot of "friendliness" from the code. Again, usually a friendly AI/code editor requires planning for it in the initial stages, and considering that it has never been mentioned that WitP has one (even for the devs), I doubt it exists.

-F-

_____________________________

"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me


(in reply to berto)
Post #: 42
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/2/2004 6:59:22 PM   
steveh11Matrix


Posts: 944
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		"Plain text data and logic files". Only pre-game, via the editor, for WitP. Be very aware that 2By3 have encrypted the save game files, so you won't be able to 'see under the hood' using those.

Map editor: there's a thread in here somewhere about someone writing a modified map - both the artwork and, more importantly, the underlying datafile. Look for Andrew Brown, "Map Mod Information".

Don't hold your breath for other items on your wish list.

DON'T let any of this stop you getting the game though - for me, even with flaws and annoyances considered, it's the best Strategic/Operational game set in the Pacific/WW2 I have ever played, be it boardgame or computer game.

Steve.

_____________________________

"Nature always obeys Her own laws" - Leonardo da Vinci

(in reply to berto)
Post #: 43
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/2/2004 6:59:53 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		As to your comments about EU2, yea, fine, sure, you mean after I BOUGHT the EU patch called EU2?

(in reply to berto)
Post #: 44
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/2/2004 7:51:20 PM   
Chaplain

 

Posts: 133
Joined: 8/21/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

As to your comments about EU2, yea, fine, sure, you mean after I BOUGHT the EU patch called EU2?


Oooh - do I detect a trace of bitterness?

Truth of the matters is, the two great blessings in the life of any wargamer are Matrix and Paradox. Depending on which day of the week you ask me, either WitP or HOI2 is the greatest wargame ever developed.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 45
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/2/2004 9:36:12 PM   
pad152

 

Posts: 2871
Joined: 4/23/2000
Status: offline 		Joel

It's very sad to hear there is no future for UV/Witp type games.
I only own two Matrix products (UV and Witp) and I think Matrix is given up on Witp way to soon.

(in reply to Chaplain)
Post #: 46
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/2/2004 9:57:36 PM   
pompack


Posts: 2582
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline 		I still have that $50 dollar coffee coaster labeled Europa Universalis. I don't need it because I DID buy the $50 patch called EU II. Two years later it even worked (and I still play it)

< Message edited by pompack -- 12/2/2004 2:01:58 PM >

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 47
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/2/2004 10:01:04 PM   
pompack


Posts: 2582
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaplain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

As to your comments about EU2, yea, fine, sure, you mean after I BOUGHT the EU patch called EU2?


Truth of the matters is, the two great blessings in the life of any wargamer are Matrix and Paradox. Depending on which day of the week you ask me, either WitP or HOI2 is the greatest wargame ever developed.


But by the time I buy HOI2, I will have paid $20 more than WitP (plus shipping and handling)

And yes I do have a companion coffee coaster labeled HOI

(in reply to Chaplain)
Post #: 48
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/2/2004 10:22:16 PM   
Tankerace


Posts: 6400
Joined: 3/21/2003
From: Stillwater, OK, United States
Status: offline 		I love Hearts of Iron.... well, only with the Stony Road Historical mod. What other game can you have German Panzers roll through Australia?

Once time, the game glitched (gasp), and on September 1st, the USSR declared war on Germany AND Poland. So, the Axis (me) and the Allies formed an alliance, and so you saw French Char B1s and British A13s using the Autoban on the way to the USSR, while German PzIVs went through cheering Polish villages on the way to defeat the Soviets. That was one of the funnest games of it I ever played.

_____________________________

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Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
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Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

(in reply to pompack)
Post #: 49
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/2/2004 10:30:32 PM   
fbastos


Posts: 827
Joined: 8/7/2004
Status: offline 		I gotta give, all programs have bugs.

Even Pacman had an infamous bug.

Do you guys know what was that bug? You had to work really hard to see it... :)

F.

_____________________________

I'm running out of jokes...


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Post #: 50
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/2/2004 10:35:18 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
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From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

Oooh - do I detect a trace of bitterness?


Nope, no bitterness, but they did loose me as a customer ... i very much doubt that HoI2 will ever make it into my shopping cart as it seems to be the way they want to run their shop.

I understand that bugs happen very well. I do not lay blame for bugs on the developer. To do so is silly.

It is the publisher that forces the developer to cut the threads and stop offering fixes.

It's just not the way to retain a loyal customer base in my eyes.

The fact that the poor dev is supporting EU2 under the table tells the story better then I can. Why should he be doing it under the table?

(in reply to Chaplain)
Post #: 51
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/2/2004 10:49:06 PM   
Knavey

 

Posts: 3052
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From: Valrico, Florida
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fbastos

I gotta give, all programs have bugs.

Even Pacman had an infamous bug.

Do you guys know what was that bug? You had to work really hard to see it... :)

F.


You mean this one?

Pac Man Cheats

_____________________________

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CVN-71
USN 87-93
"Going slow in the fast direction"

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Post #: 52
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/2/2004 10:50:09 PM   
BlackVoid


Posts: 639
Joined: 10/17/2003
Status: offline 		As a fellow developer I can only agree with Joel.

In any program, any new feature after a certain point of complexity is not likely to introduce bugs, it will SURELY do so.
The complexity and size of this game is truly amazing, it is a major achievement that it works at all.
I hope we will see some patches that tweak and fix things, because frankly, this is about the ONLY game that I have interest in. This is THE strategy game. No other game allows you to have strategic freedom of this magnitude.

(in reply to Tankerace)
Post #: 53
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/2/2004 10:54:22 PM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline 		Did you know, Mr.Frag, that Paradox is no longer using Strategy First as their distributor?

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 54
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/2/2004 11:03:20 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

Did you know, Mr.Frag, that Paradox is no longer using Strategy First as their distributor?


Yep, I know ... we'll see how their forum reads with HoI2 comes out ...

(in reply to dtravel)
Post #: 55
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/2/2004 11:09:02 PM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline 		BTW, welcome back. How did the job go?

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 56
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/3/2004 2:27:26 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackVoid

As a fellow developer I can only agree with Joel.

"Fellows" with professional integrity ordinarily allow their "fellows" to identify them as such.

(in reply to BlackVoid)
Post #: 57
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/3/2004 2:47:44 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ready to fire a full salvo of duds, baby!!!



I bet you say that to all the girls!


Usually say "Ooops, sorry!"

_____________________________





Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to sprior)
Post #: 58
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/3/2004 5:08:21 AM   
siRkid


Posts: 6650
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From: Orland FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

Joel

It's very sad to hear there is no future for UV/Witp type games.
I only own two Matrix products (UV and Witp) and I think Matrix is given up on Witp way to soon.


I don't think he ment that these types of games are dead just the engine used to create them.

_____________________________

Former War in the Pacific Test Team Manager and Beta Tester for War in the East.


(in reply to pad152)
Post #: 59
RE: Clarification of future development plans - 12/3/2004 7:20:06 AM   
CMDRMCTOAST


Posts: 673
Joined: 5/3/2003
From: Mount Vernon wa..
Status: offline 		Are we hinting at a new and improved robust type game engine in the future.

_____________________________

The essence of military genius is to bring under
consideration all of the tendencies of the mind
and soul in combination towards the business of
war..... Karl von Clausewitz

(in reply to siRkid)
Post #: 60
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