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Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast

 
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Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast - 12/9/2004 3:36:48 AM   
stewart_king

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 2/10/2004
Status: offline 		I started a CG as the Allies recently. I was gratified when the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor resulted in no sinkings. Four BB's were pretty shot up. Two were about 60-80 flotation damage, could only make about 3 knots, and so I left them in Pearl. The other two (Arizona and Nevada) were about 50-60 flt damage, could make 10-11 knots, and so I gave them a couple of DD's as escort and sent them off to San Fran to get fixed up. About a week later, I get messages that first one, then the other, sank while underway. Looking at the sunk ships database, they are listed as having been sunk by AP bombs, that is, no sub attacks or anything like that. Anybody have any idea why they would suddenly take a turn for the worse? Weather a possible factor? I didn't notice any bad weather but it is December.

Stewart King
Post #: 1
RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast - 12/9/2004 3:45:18 AM   
Tankerace


Posts: 6400
Joined: 3/21/2003
From: Stillwater, OK, United States
Status: offline 		If you have ANY ship over 30 flt damage, don't move it. What happened is since you didn't leave them in port, but sent them out half filled with water, their flooding increased, until they sank. If you had left them at Pearl, they would have survived.

It says AP bomb, because that was the last weapon to strike the ship. So, while underway, it flooded out and sank, and gave the credit to the last weapon to hit the ship.

My advice? Next time, leave your ships at Pearl until ALL the Flt damage is repaired, and then send them to SF. Never send a ship to sea with heavy flt damage, especially if it can't do more than 15 knots, unless you absolutely have to.

If flooding is under 30, you can chance it (I wouldn't), but flooding above 50, at sea, will usually increase. And if the ship is slow, and can't make port, it will sink.

< Message edited by Tankerace -- 12/8/2004 7:46:21 PM >

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Post #: 2
RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast - 12/9/2004 3:45:24 AM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline 		Bottom line: Never try to move ships that have greater than 35 flotation any long distance. As for the PH ships, I wouldn't move them till it was at 0. Too many IJN subs lurking around.

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RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast - 12/9/2004 9:02:25 AM   
doktorblood


Posts: 648
Joined: 2/14/2003
Status: offline 		The only ships I've seen with red flood damage that didn't get worse while underway are subs.

I once had a sub with 89 flood damage that I figured was a goner ... ordered it back to port anyway and a month later it not only made it back, but had healed all of it's flooding and most of it's sys damage as well!

< Message edited by doktorblood -- 12/9/2004 12:06:15 AM >

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RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast - 12/9/2004 9:38:06 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stewart_king

I started a CG as the Allies recently. I was gratified when the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor resulted in no sinkings. Four BB's were pretty shot up. Two were about 60-80 flotation damage, could only make about 3 knots, and so I left them in Pearl. The other two (Arizona and Nevada) were about 50-60 flt damage, could make 10-11 knots, and so I gave them a couple of DD's as escort and sent them off to San Fran to get fixed up. About a week later, I get messages that first one, then the other, sank while underway. Looking at the sunk ships database, they are listed as having been sunk by AP bombs, that is, no sub attacks or anything like that. Anybody have any idea why they would suddenly take a turn for the worse? Weather a possible factor? I didn't notice any bad weather but it is December.

Stewart King


Sending ships out with flood damage is a major booboo. Not only does it risk the ships, but they are slower and the time you think you may save sending them to the coast early will actually result in longer repair travel times as leaving them in port until they are zeroed which gives them max speed.

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RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast - 12/11/2004 12:20:32 AM   
stewart_king

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 2/10/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks!

It would be nice if there was some sort of warning for newbies when you try to do this. "You know, Admiral King, if you order us to sail we will but we're not going to make it to San Fran. Why don't you leave us in Pearl until we get the flooding stopped."

Any cheat codes to fix this up?

Stewart

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Post #: 6
RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast - 12/11/2004 12:44:12 AM   
Bodhi


Posts: 1267
Joined: 8/26/2003
From: Japan
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stewart_king
Any cheat codes to fix this up?


Cheat codes, what are they?

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Bodhi

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Post #: 7
RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast - 12/11/2004 1:20:03 AM   
madflava13


Posts: 1530
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Alexandria, VA
Status: offline 		Unfortunately the only warning out there is the manual and common sense. Don't sweat it too much - i've made similar mistakes and I've been playing a lot longer than you have. There's a lot of info to remember, so I suggest making checklists - something to look over before clicking end turn, just to make sure you got everything.

A good rule of thumb is this: If the ship's got a hole in it now, don't sail it anywhere.

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Post #: 8
RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast - 12/11/2004 4:37:42 AM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: madflava13

Unfortunately the only warning out there is the manual and common sense.


Which with this manual, means the only warning is the player's common sense. But that only works if the player is given some basic understanding of the game's mechanics, which would normally be gained from the manual.

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Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


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Post #: 9
RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast - 12/11/2004 7:11:44 AM   
Bodhi


Posts: 1267
Joined: 8/26/2003
From: Japan
Status: offline 		Are you saying that the manual could be improved? If so, I'd agree with you, but when ever I mention it the usual response is "but it's over 200 pages long", as if size was all that matters.

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Post #: 10
RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast - 12/11/2004 7:20:25 AM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		Maybe we should make it a community project to rewrite the manual?

Edit: this is not a jab at the manual, which I thought was well done. It's just that there is so much scope to this game that we are all still learning. I think that after we've all played the game for awhile, we could expand on the manual with both extra information on the rules and hot tips for newbies.

< Message edited by bradfordkay -- 12/11/2004 5:22:42 AM >

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fair winds,
Brad

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Post #: 11
RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast - 12/11/2004 7:28:52 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Maybe we should make it a community project to rewrite the manual?


This is what's usually wrong with manuals in the first place.

A good editor's time will cost you upward of $150 per hour. A community effort generally winds up satisfying no one. The first thing that will happen is the old "I think the game should do this" debates will break out.

This manual's biggest problem is that it was written by those who don't know how to write manuals. Don't turn the task over to more people who suffer from the same deficiency.

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Post #: 12
RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast - 12/11/2004 11:16:19 AM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline 		Any effort to re-write the manual would fail because Matrix/2by3 would not be willing to release enough information about the game mechanics to the players to allow them to write a decent manual.

Bah Humbug!!!

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


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Post #: 13
RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast - 12/11/2004 7:57:39 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

Any cheat codes to fix this up?


As in to unsink the ship or stop it from sinking in the first place? lol

The only cheat in WitP is your ability to change options after the game has started in non-PBEM games and your ability to load an old save and do something differently.

(in reply to stewart_king)
Post #: 14
RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast - 12/11/2004 10:21:04 PM   
Admiral DadMan


Posts: 3627
Joined: 2/22/2002
From: A Lion uses all its might to catch a Rabbit
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace
It says AP bomb, because that was the last weapon to strike the ship. So, while underway, it flooded out and sank, and gave the credit to the last weapon to hit the ship.

I thought it was the largest weapon to hit, not the last...

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Post #: 15
RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast - 12/12/2004 7:39:55 AM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		I think that it is neither. I've had ships hit earlier with 500lb bombs that were subsequently (a day or two later) hit with 18" torpedoes that ended up listing the 500 pounders as the cause of the sinking. Maybe it's the hit that causes the mortal damage? Though how that is calculated I have no real idea...

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fair winds,
Brad

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Post #: 16
RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast - 12/12/2004 10:22:11 AM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

I think that it is neither. I've had ships hit earlier with 500lb bombs that were subsequently (a day or two later) hit with 18" torpedoes that ended up listing the 500 pounders as the cause of the sinking. Maybe it's the hit that causes the mortal damage? Though how that is calculated I have no real idea...


Probably the game calculates the total amount of damage caused by individual weapons (damage effect x random die roll)...

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Post #: 17
RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast - 12/14/2004 12:38:18 AM   
stewart_king

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 2/10/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

Any effort to re-write the manual would fail because Matrix/2by3 would not be willing to release enough information about the game mechanics to the players to allow them to write a decent manual.

Bah Humbug!!!


Why not? I'd think that a community of players who are well-informed about the game mechanics is a very good resource. Or maybe I'm just spoiled by playing Paradox games a lot...but players could contribute a lot to making the game better, creating mods, and such that would then help sell more games and make the next version/next game better.

Stewart

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Post #: 18
RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast - 12/14/2004 6:45:12 AM   
madflava13


Posts: 1530
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Alexandria, VA
Status: offline 		I feel like I have a pretty good understanding of the game mechanics... and all the info you guys are talking about wanting is available. Go to spooky's site and grab some of the FAQs, Hints, etc... it's all there I think.

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Post #: 19
Manual Updates - 12/14/2004 8:52:15 AM   
rhondabrwn


Posts: 2570
Joined: 9/29/2004
From: Snowflake, Arizona
Status: offline 		What might be very helpful would be for some of our WiTP experts to simply annotate the current manual with changes and corrections resulting from the patches i.e. a thorough integration of patch release notes into the manual. My head spins when I try to even contemplate all of the changes and bug fixes that get discussed here in the forums!

Heck, I don't need the manual rewritten... just insert "Update" boxes into the current manual in appropriate places.

Another option would be to open the manual in Adobe Acrobat Professional )(if you have it) and insert text boxes and arrows to indicate changes or modifications. Along the same line, you can even highlight important text.

If I really knew the game that intimately, I would volunteer to do it!

However, if someone wants to send me the additions, I have Acrobat Professional and could add the notes......

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Far Dareis Mai

My old Piczo site seems to be gone, so no more Navajo Nation pics :(

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RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast - 12/16/2004 1:08:29 AM   
BraveHome


Posts: 523
Joined: 11/9/2004
From: Tulsa, OK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stewart_king

I started a CG as the Allies recently. I was gratified when the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor resulted in no sinkings. ....
Stewart King


As an aside, in all the one day PH attacks I've simulated I've never been able to recreate the number of BB losses inflicted as happened in R/L.

Are there 'standard'/recommended changes to the initial PH CV attack used to better achieve the historical results?

Thanks!

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Post #: 21
RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast - 12/16/2004 4:16:05 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BraveHome

quote:

ORIGINAL: stewart_king

I started a CG as the Allies recently. I was gratified when the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor resulted in no sinkings. ....
Stewart King


As an aside, in all the one day PH attacks I've simulated I've never been able to recreate the number of BB losses inflicted as happened in R/L.

Are there 'standard'/recommended changes to the initial PH CV attack used to better achieve the historical results?

Thanks!


It's a crap shoot. Try Pry's scenario 16 which starts Dec 8/41

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

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Post #: 22
RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast - 12/16/2004 4:39:35 AM   
madflava13


Posts: 1530
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Alexandria, VA
Status: offline 		Also keep in mind that SYS of 90+ is the equivalent of being "sunk" in the shallow water of PH.

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"The Paraguayan Air Force's request for spraying subsidies was not as Paraguayan as it were..."

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Post #: 23
RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast - 12/16/2004 5:55:08 AM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		Only 1 BB was sunk, never to be raised (historically), the Arizona. Even the Oklahoma, after it was raised, there was -brief- discussion to to refit her. Due to the time and cost. and her slow speed, it was deemed not worth it, so she was scrappped.

-F-

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RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast - 12/16/2004 6:10:53 AM   
BraveHome


Posts: 523
Joined: 11/9/2004
From: Tulsa, OK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker


It's a crap shoot. Try Pry's scenario 16 which starts Dec 8/41

Ah! I thought it was just a crappy shoot (by me ).

I was also thinking that (Intel being what it is, or isn't) I might not have been informed of the 'true' results.

I may go for Pry's after I've mastered () Scenario 15. I've only tried 1 PBEM so far, and it's been a humbling experience (mainly from a logistics point of view).

Thanks!

< Message edited by BraveHome -- 12/15/2004 10:16:48 PM >

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Post #: 25
RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast - 12/16/2004 6:34:26 AM   
BraveHome


Posts: 523
Joined: 11/9/2004
From: Tulsa, OK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Only 1 BB was sunk, never to be raised (historically), the Arizona. Even the Oklahoma, after it was raised, there was -brief- discussion to to refit her. Due to the time and cost. and her slow speed, it was deemed not worth it, so she was scrappped.

-F-


I guess sunk is a relative term. In WitP terminology, it means sunk/lost. In the historical record, sunk ships can be raised and refitted.

Curious how many veteran Japanese players stick around a 2nd day to effect more 'WitP' sinkings....

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Post #: 26
RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast - 12/16/2004 6:39:12 AM   
tsimmonds


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline
quote:

Curious how many veteran Japanese players stick around a 2nd day to effect more 'WitP' sinkings....


What's so curious about it? Having come so far and caused so much damage on the first day, it only makes sense to hit PH again when it is at its weakest....

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Post #: 27
RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast - 12/16/2004 9:07:33 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Only 1 BB was sunk, never to be raised (historically), the Arizona. Even the Oklahoma, after it was raised, there was -brief- discussion to to refit her. Due to the time and cost. and her slow speed, it was deemed not worth it, so she was scrappped.

-F-


Oklahoma actually foundered on the way.

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

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Post #: 28
RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast - 12/16/2004 2:45:47 PM   
BraveHome


Posts: 523
Joined: 11/9/2004
From: Tulsa, OK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

What's so curious about it? Having come so far and caused so much damage on the first day, it only makes sense to hit PH again when it is at its weakest....


That seemed reasonable to me too, but I had to balance out the potential gains against the sure losses of more of my best (and limited) pilots in the better prepared 2nd day strikes. So (in my first PBEM) I played it 'historical'. I may choose otherwise in my next...




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 29
manual - 12/21/2004 12:38:54 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, The manual says "Damaged ships check every turn for more damage. The amount depends on current damage and whether a ship is in port or not" (along with Nationality,crew and other factors)

< Message edited by Mogami -- 12/20/2004 5:39:13 PM >

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Post #: 30
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