RE: Why all this aversion when it comes to Hearts of Iron (HOI)?

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RE: Why all this aversion when it comes to Hearts of Ir... - 12/20/2004 4:15:21 AM

Hexed Gamer

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Well I am actually glad somehow that Dinsdale has a life, hasn't been following me around (like it seems some do) and thus would not have discovered that yes I have played WitP, yes I have played HoI and yes I have played BiN.

Not extensively in any case though I will concede.

HoI had a smell that was sufficiently bad I had little desire to even play it long enough to experience most of what is well known about it.

WitP is a great looking game, might actually be to much game to be realistic for me. Realistic in that I might not have the time to dedicate to a game that detailed turn based or otherwise possibly.

Given a choice of which game I might be interested in pursuing (to the end of following it through it's evolution) I will never be able to generate any interest for HoI.
The game is flaky even if you discount bugs. If it had no bugs at all, its a bad design concept.
Might as well picture playing WitP real time. Now that would be equally stupid, and I would say as much if it was real time as well.

BiN, I have not played it enough to comment yet.

But I am willing to support the predominant view on games generally speaking.
Predominant view on HoI, buggy crap.
Predominant view on Korsun, one of the best wargames ever.
I am thus, not surprised, that even with some bugs that were discovered with Korsun, they likely don't equal the magnitude of bugs in HoI.

Again, I can live with the idea that software just seems cursed to go through year one bug removal.
But some bugs smell of lousy quality control, and not permutations that slipped under the radar.

Generalisations all admittedly.

Beer and pretzels isn't a sin, if that is what was sold.
It's when it is claimed to be more than that, and it proves to be otherwise.

In spite of the games horrendously inadequate AI, Axis and Allies is actually quite fun when humans run all the sides.
Strategic Command is no challenge human vs AI when the player has a lot of games under their belt.
I never play the game human vs AI and expect the challenge to remain long.
Played human vs human though, and the game is actually quite challenging. I prefer hot seat solo myself. I am my hardest opponent :)

HoI can't be played hotseat solo. Thus the game has no market value at all.
I downloaded the copy I checked out. Didn't make me one bit squeemish to do it either. I have zero interest in buying from Paradox. I was just wanting to silence the people constantly crying that I had never played it.
Now I have.
Barely worth the 50 cent cd I put it on.

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(in reply to dinsdale)

Post #: 31

RE: Why all this aversion when it comes to Hearts of Ir... - 12/20/2004 9:18:54 AM

Venom Rising

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

I downloaded the copy I checked out. Didn't make me one bit squeemish to do it either. I have zero interest in buying from Paradox. I was just wanting to silence the people constantly crying that I had never played it.
Now I have.
Barely worth the 50 cent cd I put it on.

I'm not any HoI fan at all, but well....

Stealing it and admitting it publicly?

(in reply to Hexed Gamer)

Post #: 32

RE: Why all this aversion when it comes to Hearts of Ir... - 12/20/2004 9:27:18 AM

rhondabrwn

Posts: 2570
Joined: 9/29/2004
From: Snowflake, Arizona
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I have to say that I think you guys are a bit out of line with the intensity of your criticism of Paradox. A visit to the Paradox Interactive Forums tonight shows quite a healthy community supporting their games. Actually, they have quite a few more people online and active than does this forum.

I really can't reconcile the comments that I'm seeing here with the comments and enthusiasm that I see over there.

I originally had trouble getting into HOI as I just couldn't get my handle around some of their concepts. I'm still a bit lost over their convoy system and the manual didn't explain much, but I'm experimenting. I upgraded to version 1.06c and added CORE 9.1 and gave it all another try this morning. It has been a much better experience overall this time.

Like any game, it takes a bit of a committment to master it, and I really just have this feeling that the critics here have not made much of an effort to really get into it and gave up really soon (as I did, to be honest).

I am just grateful that we have companies like Matrix and Paradox that produce a variety of wargames on a variety of subjects and I have no interest at all in putting any of them into the grave with this kind of public criticism. Perhaps it's because I spent years following SPI through their various triumphs and fiascos with their boardgames so I don't expect perfection out of the box. Back in the days of boardgames the "errata sheets" were usually enormous and frequently updated. The paper version of today's "patches". I even remember counter sheets sent out as addendums to correct problems.

If a game can garner significant fan support to generate MODS and enhancements and much discussion, I judge it a success... warts and all. If there has to be an HOI2... HOI3 to get it right, so be it.

Another thing to consider is the need to encourage innovation. I love John Tiller, but he has made a design career out applying the same design concepts to battle after battle after battle. If someone designs something very different (like HOI) we need to give it a chance to develop and blossom. Financially, it's asking too much to expect game companies to provide free copies of subsequent titles like HOI2, just because HOI1 wasn't all that you expected (or Silent Service III, because it's the game you expected Silent Service II to be... and so forth).

I don't want to offend anyone too badly, but I really do not want to read all of the whiney postings that I've seen all over these forums about how "Fanboy Smith" isn't going to play "XYZ" game anymore because of some gripe about the design or a specific bug or an OOB adjustment that they don't agree with... and so on... usually culminating in some form of "I'm taking it off my harddrive and ... I'm never buying another game from XYZ"

I appreciate reading constructive criticisms and enjoy the many debates that go on around here, but spare me these kinds of comments. Too much of what I just read in this specific thread sounded like people with a personal grudge against Paradox who weren't presenting a fair criticism of HOI at all.

The problem is that people read stuff like this and then write off a company or designer or a specific game without ever giving them a chance. I think our hobby deserves better. If we want it to survive and grow, all criticism should be constructive in nature and focused on helping to improve the game and not concentrating on abusing companies and designers.

Just my two cents worth (and I'm picking on a LOT of people in various sections, not just people in this thread so please don't take it too personally).

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(in reply to Hexed Gamer)

Post #: 33

RE: Why all this aversion when it comes to Hearts of Ir... - 12/20/2004 12:29:39 PM

ravinhood

Posts: 3891
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quote:

Actually, they have quite a few more people online and active than does this forum.

I really can't reconcile the comments that I'm seeing here with the comments and enthusiasm that I see over there

The reasoning for community sizes is twofold and Paradox's community size is two fold, about as many complainers (until the biased mods ban them of course, if the total population of complainers was still allowed to speak at Paradox forums you would see a lot more adverse comments about their games, but, they make sure and get rid of those types) about their products as there are "fanbois".

If a game company produces "good/great" quality games, the official forums would be rather small like this one, because the gamers are "playing" the games instead of complaining about them or in the case of Paradox fanbois "defending" them on the official sites.

There's no real need to defend Matrixgames releases, save for the COST of some of their titles, they are unmatched as far as what a true real wargame is created on a computer. Matrixgames makes "wargames". Paradox makes "wannabe wargames", or something undescribeable. I don't see wargame in any of their creations, not even HOI really, because of the unrealism of the game as a whole. When one can take a minor like Brazil and conquer Germany and Italy with them, and very little help from the pitiful AI, it's just not a realistic historical approach to wargaming. More like a Civilization stoppage in time and playing around with some historical beginnings, but, after that, it's just a strategy game of overwhelming the computer AI.

This is not the only site that tells what Paradox games are like "out of the box", go read some Wargamer.com forum postings and then also the reviews on Amazon.com from players and also Gamerankings.com from players and reviewers alike. It's not like this is the number one stop for bashing Paradox games by a long shot. The story of Paradox is riddled across the worldwide web on many forums and review sites.

I, and several others have said, some of their games "after numerous umpteen patches" have been pretty good, EU2 and HOI finally were playable and enjoyable. That still does not make Paradox a quality provider of software games "out of the box" and that is the main issue about them. From EU to CK, every single one of their games has required numerous patches to make them what they "should have been out of the box", not to mention their milking the cow with the PLAT edition of HOI which was nothing more than patch 1.06c and the C.O.R.E mod that both can be downloaded for FREE and a copy of HOI obtained off ebay or amazon.com for less than $10.

I'm waiting now for them to release a gold box edition of EU, EU2, HOI, Victoria & CK all in one package for the low low price of $49.99 LOL

(in reply to rhondabrwn)

Post #: 34

RE: Why all this aversion when it comes to Hearts of Ir... - 12/20/2004 3:13:19 PM

pzgndr

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
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quote:

I don't want to offend anyone too badly, but I really do not want to read all of the whiney postings ... because of some gripe about the design

Fair enough. On the other hand, lots of us don't particularly care for whiney postings claiming that this new real-time or continuous-time gaming is the greatest thing since sliced bread and everyone else must be idiots for not accepting it. And that's not just Paradox. I also have HTTR and frankly I just don't play it very much at all because I don't like it. (Sorry about that, Matrix.)

I LIKE turn-based games. I prefer being able to observe, orient, decide, and act. I prefer being able to ponder the situation, make up my mind, take my time making my moves, and then seeing clear combat results I can understand. Watching a bunch of fancy graphics icons dance around each other with fancy gunfire sound effects and then trying to comprehend what exactly is happening so maybe I can click my mouse fast enough to do something different is NOT my idea of wargaming. So pardon me for my "aversion" to this type of gaming. I figure if I and others don't speak up and say something, some game producers might get the idea that the latest "trend" is the way all things must be - and that is wrong.

The original poster asked a question. He got responses. Don't go whining if you don't like the responses. We're all entitled to our opinions, and boy do we all have them. So just accept that there are some valid differences and leave it at that. Game producers need to understand that there ARE different customers with different expectations, so keep on working on different games to accomodate us.

(in reply to Hexed Gamer)

Post #: 35

RE: Why all this aversion when it comes to Hearts of Ir... - 12/20/2004 3:40:51 PM

EnPeaSea

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn
I really can't reconcile the comments that I'm seeing here with the comments and enthusiasm that I see over there.

Paradox lovers & haters fight an enternal war for the souls of unaligned gamers. This age old conflict can flare up on virtually any strategy game forum.

(in reply to rhondabrwn)

Post #: 36

RE: Why all this aversion when it comes to Hearts of Ir... - 12/20/2004 5:41:12 PM

Hexed Gamer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Venom Rising

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

I downloaded the copy I checked out. Didn't make me one bit squeemish to do it either. I have zero interest in buying from Paradox. I was just wanting to silence the people constantly crying that I had never played it.
Now I have.
Barely worth the 50 cent cd I put it on.

I'm not any HoI fan at all, but well....

Stealing it and admitting it publicly?

Hehe I can see you don't recognise me (is it possible you don't?).
I am about as rabid a supporter of good wargaming oractices as it gets. I am not always 100% spot on target, but I DO try.

I contributed my time for free (that being summer of 2003 and into the fall) to help bring to the world MC-SE for Steel Panthers.
I was one of two persons that aided David Heath in seeing that the whole team was given a complimentary copy of the Team Edition of the Steel Panthers Generals edition cd as well.
If I had a real job (don't due to being disabled), the idea of my needing any financial aid from David to mail them out would have been a non issue.

So I do indeed pony up for wargaming when I can.
See my link, I LIKE to give away download services for things like the hefty sized Steel Panthers download (which normally is quite free). It costs me bandwidth, but then again, my bandwidth is unlimited, so I am not really losing anything.

But, assuming you might be the only one that doesn't know. The internet is indeed full of places where a person can go and just you know download stuff.
One such place is a well known place called Suprnova (no link offered if ou can't find it, that's not anyone else's problem is it :) ).
I could name the games that are there, but hmm why don't I do it the easy way, and just say every RTS and shooter titel you can think of. Oh and every other schlock aging title imaginable.

It's not like I am saying anything that everyone doesn't already know (well accept maybe yourself :) ).

So I downloaded HoI, oh the horror. I denied a company to which hasn't a hope in hell of ever getting a sale from me a sale. Well , hmm look at that sentence. Paradox doesn't have a chance in hell of ever getting a sale out of me.
The only person that benefited out of the experience, was the business that sold me the cds.

Paradox is all of what is wrong with computer wargaming.
They make shoddy games, for fanatics (must be fanatics as I usually throw out games that suck, and go find a good one to replace it).

I applaud Matrix Games for the approach they are taking vis a vis serial numbers and patches.
I can't think of a single wargame that was worth instaling, that has escaped a need for at least some patch work.
If you want the game, expect to need a patch eventually. If you want to get the patch, expect to have bought it honestly.
Best form of protection I have seen yet.

Certainly out does that computer mangling Starforce which is a death sentence to sales from me. I won't touch a game that ever had anything to do with it. Not even if the person promises it was cracked (I'm not that trusting or desperate for the game).

What is funny, is the only good wargames out there, are generally not available for download.
That is an interesting detail.
And yes I KNOW you can eventually find aaaaaanything if you hunt hard enough.
But the truth is, its the garbage that generally occupies the sites that is being given away.
It shows that old style wargamers, basically won't "give away" their old style wargames.
Get out there and buy it being the preferred approach.

I like that.

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(in reply to Venom Rising)

Post #: 37

RE: Why all this aversion when it comes to Hearts of Ir... - 12/20/2004 6:30:18 PM

EnPeaSea

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Joined: 12/20/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

I denied a company to which hasn't a hope in hell of ever getting a sale from me a sale. Well , hmm look at that sentence. Paradox doesn't have a chance in hell of ever getting a sale out of me.

That is hardly a good excuse for theft.

I do not see how a refusal to purchase products from a company equates to a right to steal from them.

(in reply to Hexed Gamer)

Post #: 38

RE: Why all this aversion when it comes to Hearts of Ir... - 12/20/2004 7:28:36 PM

Hexed Gamer

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Who said it was an excuse?

I am making known the already known.

They are out there, they are all out there (the RTS and FPS variety).
I didn't put them out there, and I don't really care that they are out there (all the RTS and FPS crud).

It is an indictment of the fans of those sorts of games though, that they are so readily available.

I guess the average RTS and FPS fan doesn't care squat for the companies making their games.

And that is the point.

I haven't downloaded any of that crud (other than the HoI example) because crud well you know, its crud.

I had that game off the hard drive 5 minutes after setting to rest once and for all in my mind, yes it's crud.
It was valueless free let alone full price or found linering in a junk bin.

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(in reply to EnPeaSea)

Post #: 39

RE: Why all this aversion when it comes to Hearts of Ir... - 12/20/2004 7:55:35 PM

Hexed Gamer

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This makes for a funny contrast though.

Posted by Gasbag.

"The damn game occaisionally crashes to desktop during combat sequences. Also during game saving the audio skips ( like a broken record ). The tutorial is the worst written that I've ever seen. I've got a good mind to sue the company for the cost of the game. If this is the quality of product that Matrix turns out then I won't be buying any more.
P.S. I've got the f#@#ing thing patched to 2.30, have more than enough RAM (512) to run it & have updated my video card ( BFG Nividia Geforce FX 5500 256 MB ) drivers."

Now if that was his response to UV, a game with I think a much better level of acceptance, I wonder if he would go postal if he had bought a day one copy of HoI :)

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(in reply to Hexed Gamer)

Post #: 40

RE: Why all this aversion when it comes to Hearts of Ir... - 12/20/2004 7:59:05 PM

EnPeaSea

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Joined: 12/20/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

I haven't downloaded any of that crud (other than the HoI example) because crud well you know, its crud.

So your theft of HoI was just a moment of personal weakness?

(in reply to Hexed Gamer)

Post #: 41

RE: Why all this aversion when it comes to Hearts of Ir... - 12/20/2004 8:21:00 PM

Hexed Gamer

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I can see you just don't comprehend.

I have no wish to ever purchase anything from Paradox.

I do not care if Paradox is in business tomorrow.

I don't care if people that have bought the game care to upload it to places where it might be downloaded freely.

Is this getting through, or are you that dim?

That I downloaded it was only because I could. Not that I wanted the game. I thought it was dumb while I was downloading it. I thought it was dumb while I was burning it to a cd. I thought it was dumb while installing it. And it was a dumb waste of time playing it.

It would have been even dumber if I had encouraged the company by paying for it though.

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(in reply to EnPeaSea)

Post #: 42

RE: Why all this aversion when it comes to Hearts of Ir... - 12/20/2004 8:54:40 PM

EnPeaSea

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Joined: 12/20/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

I can see you just don't comprehend.

I have no wish to ever purchase anything from Paradox.

I do not care if Paradox is in business tomorrow.

I don't care if people that have bought the game care to upload it to places where it might be downloaded freely.

Is this getting through, or are you that dim?

That I downloaded it was only because I could. Not that I wanted the game. I thought it was dumb while I was downloading it. I thought it was dumb while I was burning it to a cd. I thought it was dumb while installing it. And it was a dumb waste of time playing it.

It would have been even dumber if I had encouraged the company by paying for it though.

Getting a little defensive huh?

Thanks for the clarification.

(in reply to Hexed Gamer)

Post #: 43

RE: Why all this aversion when it comes to Hearts of Ir... - 12/20/2004 9:28:14 PM

Pippin

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I say, this is getting to be a most interesting thread...

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Post #: 44

RE: Why all this aversion when it comes to Hearts of Ir... - 12/20/2004 9:47:10 PM

Hexed Gamer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EnPeaSea

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

I can see you just don't comprehend.

I have no wish to ever purchase anything from Paradox.

I do not care if Paradox is in business tomorrow.

I don't care if people that have bought the game care to upload it to places where it might be downloaded freely.

Is this getting through, or are you that dim?

That I downloaded it was only because I could. Not that I wanted the game. I thought it was dumb while I was downloading it. I thought it was dumb while I was burning it to a cd. I thought it was dumb while installing it. And it was a dumb waste of time playing it.

It would have been even dumber if I had encouraged the company by paying for it though.

Getting a little defensive huh?

Thanks for the clarification.

Defensive? I would have to give a hoot first hehe.
I was just unsure if you realised how little it mattered to me.

The only thing stopping me from giving away the copy is I would never do anything that mean to a fellow wargamer.
I did the smart thing and threw it out :)

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(in reply to EnPeaSea)

Post #: 45

RE: Why all this aversion when it comes to Hearts of Ir... - 12/20/2004 10:22:06 PM

EricGuitarJames

Posts: 957
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From: Not far enough away for some!
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EnPeaSea

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

I denied a company to which hasn't a hope in hell of ever getting a sale from me a sale. Well , hmm look at that sentence. Paradox doesn't have a chance in hell of ever getting a sale out of me.

That is hardly a good excuse for theft. I do not see how a refusal to purchase products from a company equates to a right to steal from them.

Unless you have never recorded a friend's CD, videoed a tv show, or borrowed a video game (all of which are technically illegal unless you have the appropriate licence), one should not start berating others for theft.

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(in reply to EnPeaSea)

Post #: 46

RE: Why all this aversion when it comes to Hearts of Ir... - 12/20/2004 10:23:14 PM

EnPeaSea

Posts: 42
Joined: 12/20/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

quote:

ORIGINAL: EnPeaSea

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

I can see you just don't comprehend.

I have no wish to ever purchase anything from Paradox.

I do not care if Paradox is in business tomorrow.

I don't care if people that have bought the game care to upload it to places where it might be downloaded freely.

Is this getting through, or are you that dim?

That I downloaded it was only because I could. Not that I wanted the game. I thought it was dumb while I was downloading it. I thought it was dumb while I was burning it to a cd. I thought it was dumb while installing it. And it was a dumb waste of time playing it.

It would have been even dumber if I had encouraged the company by paying for it though.

Getting a little defensive huh?

Thanks for the clarification.

Defensive? I would have to give a hoot first hehe.
I was just unsure if you realised how little it mattered to me.

Its ok. Sorry if I came off hostile in my post.

Anyway, to get things a little back on topic. Paradox Entertainment seems to be a contraversial company in the pc strategy gaming community. One side loves HoI. The other hates it. Neither side understands the other.

(in reply to Hexed Gamer)

Post #: 47

RE: Why all this aversion when it comes to Hearts of Ir... - 12/20/2004 10:54:07 PM

EnPeaSea

Posts: 42
Joined: 12/20/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

quote:

ORIGINAL: EnPeaSea

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

I denied a company to which hasn't a hope in hell of ever getting a sale from me a sale. Well , hmm look at that sentence. Paradox doesn't have a chance in hell of ever getting a sale out of me.

That is hardly a good excuse for theft. I do not see how a refusal to purchase products from a company equates to a right to steal from them.

Unless you have never recorded a friend's CD, videoed a tv show, or borrowed a video game (all of which are technically illegal unless you have the appropriate licence), one should not start berating others for theft.

Lucky for me I don't listen to music, own a VCR, or have any friends!

(in reply to EricGuitarJames)

Post #: 48

RE: Why all this aversion when it comes to Hearts of Ir... - 12/20/2004 11:05:19 PM

JJKettunen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EnPeaSea

Lucky for me I don't listen to music, own a VCR, or have any friends!

That's the saddest thing I've heard lately.

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The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

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(in reply to EnPeaSea)

Post #: 49

RE: Why all this aversion when it comes to Hearts of Ir... - 12/20/2004 11:20:09 PM

Hexed Gamer

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Now granted, I would have to be particularly limited of intellect to go over to Paradox and blather on about their game and how I came to get it.

I have encountered no small number of people that staunchly defend the notion they have NEVER done anything illegal or even questionable in their life.
I find it funny they can say that publicly and expect anyone to actually believe them of course :)

One of them actually might not have been full of it enough to be real :)

But we all know you can download nearly anything under the sun.
So it is not like I have said anything radical.

I do know someone though, that never owned a vcr.

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(in reply to EnPeaSea)

Post #: 50

RE: Why all this aversion when it comes to Hearts of Ir... - 12/20/2004 11:25:54 PM

EnPeaSea

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer
I do know someone though, that never owned a vcr.

My parents owned a Betamax VCR. It was a traumatic experience for me.

(in reply to Hexed Gamer)

Post #: 51

RE: Why all this aversion when it comes to Hearts of Ir... - 12/20/2004 11:47:34 PM

Koper

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Ok, after this nice discussion about piracy and stealing... :)

I see serious difference in design approach that is used in case of the "classic" wargaming and the one used by Paradox.

In wargame designer starts with clear goal - reflect battle/campaign X. And one of the grand measures of the success here is keping the simulation as true to the historical realities as possible. It results in creating highly dedicated system that is specially tuned and adjusted to the needs on the campaign/battle X. If something doesn't fit design concept, or can be used to break historical limits of the scenario, it is usually removed from the game. Additionally, special rules to make game more "historical" are often added...

Paradox starts with different goals. First of all, they don't like to be focused on the exact battle/campaign (although seems like it can change in HoI2 - see demo). They create generic system that is rather far from being tuned for some exact campaign. Paradox games include diplomacy, research, industry and manpower control that can be rarely seen elsewhere - all it for the price of "generic" system instead of "focused" one.

Comparison to Civilization is not that bad, although Paradox games are certainly more ambitious projects in terms of detail and realism - after all, Civilization could be fought with dragons or laser beams and you wouldn't see a difference (Alpha Centauri, anyone?). I can hardly imagine that in case of Paradox products. Even if we say that they are all EU clones (HUGE simplification), each of their games got different mayor "theme" (colonization, industrialization, feudalism, modern war) which makes them really unique.

Comparison to RTS is wrong - honestly, I can barely imagine how Paradox titles CAN look like RTSes even for hardcore wargamer. They lack flashy gfx, they require from player real strategy, not just clickfest and they are way too detailed for comparing them with RTS genre.

Some hate them, some love them. I guess those games are more popular in Europe, as EU series was not really that much popular in USA (not so many fans of european history ;)) and EU/EU2 is still the best Paradox product.

< Message edited by Koper -- 12/20/2004 9:48:19 PM >

(in reply to Hexed Gamer)

Post #: 52

RE: Why all this aversion when it comes to Hearts of Ir... - 12/21/2004 12:49:09 AM

Hanal

Posts: 2312
Joined: 11/1/2003
Status: offline

"Comparison to RTS is wrong - honestly, I can barely imagine how Paradox titles CAN look like RTSes even for hardcore wargamer. They lack flashy gfx, they require from player real strategy, not just clickfest and they are way too detailed for comparing them with RTS genre."

OK, so we will not use the phrase "Real Time Strategy"......How about "simultaneous movement and combat".... I just do not like roaming around the HOI map keeping an eye on all my armies as they march merrily off to battle, while I fend off the constant pop up messages letting me know this and that, pausing the game constantly to try keeping up with what's going on..It's a personal taste obviously, but I like conducting my campaigns in a measured turn based method...the bottom line is that to each their own and there is no reason to disuade or persuade anyone to play HOI...let the individual make up their own mind....

(in reply to Koper)

Post #: 53

RE: Why all this aversion when it comes to Hearts of Ir... - 12/21/2004 1:54:07 AM

Koper

Posts: 34
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

quote:

OK, so we will not use the phrase "Real Time Strategy"......How about "simultaneous movement and combat".... I just do not like roaming around the HOI map keeping an eye on all my armies as they march merrily off to battle, while I fend off the constant pop up messages letting me know this and that, pausing the game constantly to try keeping up with what's going on..It's a personal taste obviously, but I like conducting my campaigns in a measured turn based method...the bottom line is that to each their own and there is no reason to disuade or persuade anyone to play HOI...let the individual make up their own mind....

By RTS I understand something different then just "simultaneous movement and combat". :)

RTS is basically arcade game that pretends to have some sort of strategic element. Usually this strategic element is reduced to capturing resource sites, some research and assault group composition. HoI is a bit more detailed...

Plus, with all this micromanagement, it can hardly be called "arcade". ;)

(in reply to Hanal)

Post #: 54

RE: Why all this aversion when it comes to Hearts of Ir... - 12/21/2004 2:13:03 AM

Venom Rising

Posts: 6
Joined: 12/20/2004
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Hexed Gamer AKA Les the Sarge is a pirate and a thief.

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Post #: 55

RE: Why all this aversion when it comes to Hearts of Ir... - 12/21/2004 2:17:53 AM

Sarge

Posts: 2841
Joined: 3/1/2003
From: ask doggie
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Venom Rising

Hexed Gamer AKA Les the Sarge is a pirate and a thief.

That can't be Les the Sarge he posted he would never visit this forum agian.

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Post #: 56

RE: Why all this aversion when it comes to Hearts of Ir... - 12/21/2004 2:43:37 AM

rhondabrwn

Posts: 2570
Joined: 9/29/2004
From: Snowflake, Arizona
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: J P Falcon

"Comparison to RTS is wrong - honestly, I can barely imagine how Paradox titles CAN look like RTSes even for hardcore wargamer. They lack flashy gfx, they require from player real strategy, not just clickfest and they are way too detailed for comparing them with RTS genre."

OK, so we will not use the phrase "Real Time Strategy"......How about "simultaneous movement and combat".... I just do not like roaming around the HOI map keeping an eye on all my armies as they march merrily off to battle, while I fend off the constant pop up messages letting me know this and that, pausing the game constantly to try keeping up with what's going on..It's a personal taste obviously, but I like conducting my campaigns in a measured turn based method...the bottom line is that to each their own and there is no reason to disuade or persuade anyone to play HOI...let the individual make up their own mind....

Hey, I can relate to that! My first experience with HOI was extremely frustrating for that reason... 24 popup messages in 60 seconds of play... argh! However, I've discovered (after patching to 106c and CORE) that one can easily fine tune what messages you want to see and those that you don't. Once those are set the messages get manageable and mostly quite informative (especially the historical info and decision point ones). As far as running around the game trying to keep track of what my forces are doing, I use the PAUSE buttone frequently and adjust the speed of the game depending on how much is happening.

It really takes a different mind-set to play these games and I can see how a traditional wargamer can be put off by them and dismiss them without spending more than a few hours on them. I started dozens of HOI games initially and just couldn't get a handle on it. I do owe everyone in this thread for informing me about the patches and the CORE Mods because it really ressurrected the game for me (which I bought at full price in a store, not the bargain bin where I find most of my purchases these days).

Perhaps Paradox can be accused of putting games out too early, but having produced and marketed some business software I can certainly attest that your in-house testing can be totally happy with something and as soon as you ship it, people start breaking it! You just get too close to something and YOU do everything perfectly because you know what you are supposed to be doing and how it works. My program included a disastrous bug that wiped out one of our major client's database on three separate occasions. After months of trying to find the problem, it turned out to be an elderly input clerk who didn't like computers and clicked impatiently on the "Submit" button over and over and over. If she happened to click during a certain precise stage in the re-indexing process, everything got dumped but the record she was adding. A tiny little programming error triggered by somebody doing something we hadn't anticipated.

I remember the time when SPI had to admit that they hadn't tested any of their MONSTER boardgames on WWII past 1942. People invested thousands of hours trying to play these things and then found the mid and end games had some real game balance problems. However, it was imp;ossible for playtesters to play these things through to completion so they spot checked here and there, ran scenarios and so forth. The published game certainly wasn't "finished" and the errata flowed for years, but I never heard them summarily dismissed as "crap".

I respect the effort it takes to produce these games and I'm not going to trash the publishers. Perhaps some will want to hold off on future Paradox purchases and pick them up after the patches (hey, I know some people who take that approach with Matrix games ;) Some will buy on the first day and joyously form a community to search out and fix the bugs and help create the patches. I remember my intial disapointment with Falcon 4.0 but that failed combat flight simulator has been patched and enhanced and modded to the point where it's quite a game. Complex computer simulations really need that kind of support and tweaking. If you aren't prepared to deal with that, then just make it your rule never to buy any new games until the 3rd patch.

And, finally, it is certainly everyone's right to rave and rant all they want, but it's also my right to express the opinion that I find a lot of those rants very tiring and non-productive. Specific and well reasoned critiques are always welcome, but spare me the generic "I bought this game and it's total CRAP and I think the people at XYZ are stupid losers and I'm taking this game off my hard drive and I'm never buying another XYZ game again as long as I live and neither should you" kind of comment.

Yea... I know... it's a fact of life in any online community that you are going to get that... I just seem to be seeing a lot more of it lately and it offends my sense of fairness.

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Far Dareis Mai

My old Piczo site seems to be gone, so no more Navajo Nation pics :(

(in reply to Hanal)

Post #: 57

RE: Why all this aversion when it comes to Hearts of Ir... - 12/21/2004 3:26:48 AM

EricGuitarJames

Posts: 957
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: Not far enough away for some!
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Venom Rising

Hexed Gamer AKA Les the Sarge is a pirate and a thief.

Girls, stick to the subject at hand

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It's Just a Ride!

(in reply to Venom Rising)

Post #: 58

RE: Why all this aversion when it comes to Hearts of Ir... - 12/21/2004 4:51:45 AM

Hexed Gamer

Posts: 561
Joined: 6/24/2004
Status: offline

For starters rhondabrwn as a woman you are likely intellectually overqualified for this argument :)

Second, I reeeeeeeeeally no longer care what people think of Hexed Gamer aka Les the Sarge 9-1 (get the name right if you are so damned clever) or to be more exact the few people who already know how little they mean to me.

So pathetic attempts at name calling are just that pathetic attempts.

You are not important.
You are puny unimportant people on the internet that I will never meet (kinda happy about that).

So enjoy yourselves in the sure comfort of knowing, that whether I chose to come here now barely twice a day or perhaps more or perhaps less, it really doesn't matter what you think.

You are unimportant.
You are puny unimportant people on the internet that I will never meet.

Because when I discarded you, I lost nothing. I Lost nothing as you are nothing. Can't lose what was never there.

And for all those wishing to sob and whine over the harsh cruel words I type, get a grip.

Interesting though, how many people have joined this thread with only single digit sums of posts to their credit eh.

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There is only one Hexed Gamer
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(in reply to EricGuitarJames)

Post #: 59

RE: Why all this aversion when it comes to Hearts of Ir... - 12/21/2004 9:29:01 AM

Koper

Posts: 34
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

quote:

Interesting though, how many people have joined this thread with only single digit sums of posts to their credit eh.

And you feel SOOOO much better, having those 3 digits under your avatar?

Pathetic...

(in reply to Hexed Gamer)

Post #: 60

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RE: Why all this aversion when it comes to Hearts of Iron (HOI)?