RE: How can you guys stand PBEM?

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RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? - 12/30/2004 3:39:28 AM

pasternakski

Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kid

The AI is not broke it is as good as any AI out there.

Baloney. The excuse has been given over and over and over again here that "boo hoo, the AI can't never be as good as a human." Play Galactic Civilizations once if you want to see how good AI currently is, and talk to those people about how to improve it. Frank Hunter is a good source, too, as you should already know.

Don't come to the AI's defense with regard to what has been miserably done in WitP. We're not stupid. We all know how bad it sucks.

(in reply to siRkid)

Post #: 31

RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? - 12/30/2004 3:40:16 AM

Knavey

Posts: 3052
Joined: 9/12/2002
From: Valrico, Florida
Status: offline

Is there anyone in this forum, that has started a PBEM game and decided that PBEM was not as good as playing the AI?

I highly doubt you could find a handful if any!

You guys that are hesitant to start a PBEM game, you have NO idea what a blast you are missing out on.

I am one of ltfighters opponents in a 4 way free for all. Feinder and I are playing ltfighter and kbullard, and the action is much more intense than any AI game I have started...and I started quite a few of them. Just like one poster said and then he abandoned them. Trust me...you get to know your troops a lot closer in PBEM games. The turns tend to be done with a bit more care (since I know kb or lt will gloat if they hammer me because of a mistake and I don't want to let Feinder down by doing something stupid with my theaters) and every mistake you make is just an opportunity for the opponent to exploit it. When I make mistakes with the AI, I just shrug it off because I know it can only capitalize on it so far.

With a human opponent, if I make the wrong decision, you better believe the water will come pouring through the holes in your ships and it will be much more difficult to recover from it.

My advice...give PBEM a try...just one game. You guys that swear by the AI...try a few weeks worth of turns against a human. After that, I will bet you will pick up a second game or two just to keep your modem busy sending the turns back and forth.

_____________________________

x-Nuc twidget
CVN-71
USN 87-93
"Going slow in the fast direction"

(in reply to Farfarer61)

Post #: 32

RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? - 12/30/2004 3:58:35 AM

denisonh

Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/21/2001
From: Upstate SC
Status: offline

It is hard to simply reload a save or restart against a human opponent....

How many guys who have had PBEM games where the opponent simply disappeared after losing an engagement?

I had a number of UV PBEMs where opponents "bailed".

There are people who cannot deal with failing and those who lack the patinece to PBEM. AI play is much better suited for them.

Of course, AI for a complex game of this depth and detail is difficult. Wamnting it is fine, but being able to script and program something with this much complexity to be competent against all opponents and ploys is beyond reason. Galatic civilizations is a good example, but the comparison fails when the level of complexity is compared.

The "branches and sequels" created by the myriad of choices, options, capabilites, unit varieties, etc... gets is simply HUGE in WitP compared to other games. It is on par with DoD sims which make no attempt to have any "comprehensive" AI due to this complexity.

Put the requirements for the AI withe the level of complexity out for bid for a contract, and see what you get.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Knavey

Is there anyone in this forum, that has started a PBEM game and decided that PBEM was not as good as playing the AI?

I highly doubt you could find a handful if any!

You guys that are hesitant to start a PBEM game, you have NO idea what a blast you are missing out on.

I am one of ltfighters opponents in a 4 way free for all. Feinder and I are playing ltfighter and kbullard, and the action is much more intense than any AI game I have started...and I started quite a few of them. Just like one poster said and then he abandoned them. Trust me...you get to know your troops a lot closer in PBEM games. The turns tend to be done with a bit more care (since I know kb or lt will gloat if they hammer me because of a mistake and I don't want to let Feinder down by doing something stupid with my theaters) and every mistake you make is just an opportunity for the opponent to exploit it. When I make mistakes with the AI, I just shrug it off because I know it can only capitalize on it so far.

With a human opponent, if I make the wrong decision, you better believe the water will come pouring through the holes in your ships and it will be much more difficult to recover from it.

My advice...give PBEM a try...just one game. You guys that swear by the AI...try a few weeks worth of turns against a human. After that, I will bet you will pick up a second game or two just to keep your modem busy sending the turns back and forth.

_____________________________

"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC

(in reply to Knavey)

Post #: 33

RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? - 12/30/2004 4:47:18 AM

dtravel

Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bordric

Yeah I know Mad, looks like you guys are having hell of fun time. Guess I will have to jump in soon. Prolly just get spanked though someone invade L.A., or San Fran or something in1942...

You know, there is an AAR out there about this .... (And if you read it, you will understand why everyone cringes when they hear the words, "The Banana has a plan!".

)

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

(in reply to bordric)

Post #: 34

RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? - 12/30/2004 5:06:11 AM

Knavey

Posts: 3052
Joined: 9/12/2002
From: Valrico, Florida
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: denisonh

The "branches and sequels" created by the myriad of choices, options, capabilites, unit varieties, etc... gets is simply HUGE in WitP compared to other games. It is on par with DoD sims which make no attempt to have any "comprehensive" AI due to this complexity.

Put the requirements for the AI withe the level of complexity out for bid for a contract, and see what you get.

There is NO AI out there that is in the gaming community that can compete with a human. Can't think of any game where AI is a challange. That is one reason that the MMOGs are as massive as they are. You simply cannot program the computer to be as rational or as irrational as the human player can be. To win against the AI, it is simply a matter of restarting the save, and trying from a different angle of attack until you find the weakness in the AI and exploiting it.

Invent an AI that functions like a human, and you will be rich.

_____________________________

x-Nuc twidget
CVN-71
USN 87-93
"Going slow in the fast direction"

(in reply to denisonh)

Post #: 35

RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? - 12/30/2004 6:14:47 AM

Mike Scholl

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kid

The AI is not broke it is as good as any AI out there. And we have made improvments to the AI, read the patch notes. No one has sent me any saves showing the AI doing something stupid over and over again. Sure it will never be as good as a human but to call it broke it totally unfair.

KID Does this mean that you have finally taught the AI not to squander it's assets
as fast as it recieves them? If not, it is still at least "cracked" if not broken. But I
agree that as long as the player is willing to play sensibly it will do an acceptable
job of providing competition so he can learn, practice, and try different things. And
sometimes just relax and play. And for a game with this degree of complexity that's
a pretty fair accomplishment. Chess is to WITP as a bicycle is to a BMW..., and only
recently have specialized chess computers and software caught up to the master level.
Too bad someone couldn't have gotten IBM to put all that money and talent into a real
wargame. One where every piece can move at once on BOTH sides in a three dimen-
tional playing arena.

_____________________________

(in reply to siRkid)

Post #: 36

RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? - 12/30/2004 6:47:31 AM

medicff

Posts: 710
Joined: 9/11/2004
From: WPB, Florida
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bordric

I keep hearing all this talk about pbem but I could not imagine playing like that. Turns are painful enough against the AI, 1 or 2 turns a day would take years to finish one of the long scenario's.

Do you just play the small scenario's ?

I have to admit I wasn't sure about the response. But since I started PBEM the increase in game excitment with a REAL challenge is worth any wait.

(in reply to bordric)

Post #: 37

RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? - 12/30/2004 11:09:42 AM

viking42

Posts: 91
Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Europe
Status: offline

I'd love to play a PBEM,
But playing against the AI takes me about all the free time i have. and at an average of 5 turns a day, i will need a year to finish a game.
If i would play a PBEM, i will not be able to play more than a turn a day average, this will take about five years to finish!!

(in reply to Farfarer61)

Post #: 38

RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? - 12/30/2004 2:58:27 PM

kayjay

Posts: 133
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: JS J4 Pentagon
Status: offline

Northern Va ? Where ? Saw you commnet about DoD sims - thats what I do all day:)

Kevin

_____________________________

Kevin Kelley

(in reply to denisonh)

Post #: 39

RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? - 12/30/2004 7:39:17 PM

denisonh

Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/21/2001
From: Upstate SC
Status: offline

I am the Manpower Management Officer for the Army Reserve in Crystal City (but spend a fair amount of time in "the Building")

Spent some time while at the Naval Postgraduate School doing some work with some of the current DoD wargaming applications.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kkelley

Northern Va ? Where ? Saw you commnet about DoD sims - thats what I do all day:)

Kevin

_____________________________

"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC

(in reply to kayjay)

Post #: 40

RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? - 12/30/2004 9:14:54 PM

Thayne

Posts: 748
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline

I don't need to play a PBEM game to know what one is like. There are over a dozen PBEM AARs being published in the AAR forum to show me what it would be like.

Really, I see nothing there that interests me.

I do not have anything to say against those who like that type of game. Really, there is not much difference between playing WiTP this way, or playing Galactic Civilization or some other game set up in a fictitious universe with fictitious units with fictitious powers.

There is no 'wrong way' to enjoy oneself and have fun.

But there is no demand that everybody enjoy the same thing, either. It is not 'wrong' to be somebody who simply does not like playing this type of game.

If I were playing Japan, I could go out and try to conquer Australia (for example). But I would prefer a game where I could 'role-play' being an actual Japanese commander. This means, for example:

I do not know how quickly the Philippines is going to fall. I think that I am committing enough troops to do the job. However, as far as I know, I might need three more divisions (or their equivalent) to do the job.

Maybe my oppoenent built stockpiles of supplies that I do not know about. Maybe their training, or their leaders, or their morale, are better than I expect. Maybe they have a weapon I do not know about, or they have discovered a weakness in how we fight that they can exploit. There are countless possibilities. Each possibility argues for keeping troops in reserve.

But, in the game, these possibilities do not exist, so, in the game, I could use these extra units someplace else -- an early conquest of Java or New Caledonia or Russia, for example.

I know that I can do these things. But I do not want to do these things because I am role-playing a character who does not know what I know. And that character would not do these things.

So, please keep your conceit -- that those who do not play PBEM games are some lowlife type of creature who cannot handle failure -- to yourself. I have different interests from you, that is all. Your interests find satisfaction in a PBEM game. I consider a PBEM game (and the way that one has to play such a game in order to compete) to be a complete waste of time. I wish you many enjoyable playing hours -- it does not matter to me that you find enjoyment in something I consider a worthless waste of time.

(in reply to Knavey)

Post #: 41

RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? - 12/30/2004 9:51:51 PM

IKerensky

Posts: 374
Joined: 6/7/2001
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, The AI is no match for the guys who use wild exotic invade everywhere conquer the world styles. It does a decent job against players who think they should have aircontrol before they invade. Who don't steal units from Manchuria or Korea. And who know they understand the game so at the start they choose the hardest setting rather then easy or historic.
The Historic setting means you are going to play "historically" and you wish the AI to do the same.
Unless you are trashing the AI on the hardest setting while confining yourself to a somewhat historic (by this I mean you worry about losing ships aircraft and men needlessly) style then you can't say the AI is broken. Broken means it does not do what it is designed to do.
If you really want to see the AI and think you are a genius then play Japan on hardest setting and start the 1944 Campaign. (or at least the 1943 one)
The AI is almost unbeatable here.

Mogami I am sorry to have to contradict you but AI is no match in anyway...

I only played the ABDA/comonwealth command and currently I am in no position to lose any of those after more than 2 month in game , I sunk numerous Japaneses ships, some of them to very very very stupid AI moves like having his cv cruise around Singapour....

Ai is plaggued by 2 things:
- A bad Strategic AI.
- A non-existant tactical AI

Ai keep making evident error like : not considering if ennemy airbase are active or not when selecting what to bomb, where to sail. Total inability to adjust �s planes air mission and flight altitude: China bombers staying in naval at chunking whole war, and flight of Level bombers bombing at 15.000 naval target are the main example... And I am not even speaking of the 1,2,3 wave invasion move....

AI is good when you need someone to push the other side markers while you learn the game... nothing else.

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 42

RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? - 12/30/2004 10:38:58 PM

Nikademus

Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: viking42

I'd love to play a PBEM,
But playing against the AI takes me about all the free time i have. and at an average of 5 turns a day, i will need a year to finish a game.
If i would play a PBEM, i will not be able to play more than a turn a day average, this will take about five years to finish!!

The answer to that is multi day turns. I've done both 2day and 3day and enjoyed both immensly. 2day in particular is a good option.

I'm looking to do a 2day'er as Allies if you interested. My average is also 1 turn per day in PBEM. Having a human opponent is great but the glacial slow pace of PBEM is a turn off when you can only manage such a pace. Thats what i found at least.

< Message edited by Nikademus -- 12/30/2004 8:39:07 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to viking42)

Post #: 43

RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? - 12/30/2004 10:45:43 PM

Reiryc

Posts: 4991
Joined: 1/5/2001
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bordric

So basically unless you play PBEM the game is broke and there is no need to even have it? Because the AI is broke and can not/will not be fixed...

That is not good news for someone who just started playing. Especially considering the price. I would venture to say most did not purchase it to play PBEM.

All the talk about fretting I am not sure where that came from. Not fretting about losing, if there was no chance to lose then not much of a game. Although playing the Allies you would have to be really horrible to lose.

I consider the AI on all games to be 'broke'.... I've yet to ever have a challenging AI unless it cheated. The AI is good for downtime between turns, but when it comes to wondering what will happen and consequences, a human will invariably make the game more suspenseful and sometimes more punishing than an ai ever will.

_____________________________

(in reply to bordric)

Post #: 44

RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? - 12/30/2004 10:50:58 PM

bordric

Posts: 31
Joined: 12/25/2004
Status: offline

Well turn based PC war games are not meant for Human vs. Human. People buy them for Human vs. AI and I think with todays technology there is no reason not to be able to make a good decent AI. I am not talking about human level but good strategic level AI. I suppose no one has the time or motivation to work on such AI because the sheep called "Wargamers", such as myself continue to by sub-par products.

There are some good AI's out there.

(in reply to Reiryc)

Post #: 45

RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? - 12/30/2004 10:51:05 PM

2ndACR

Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline

I have nothing against anyone who plays against the AI, but i do feel that they are missing out on a HUGE part of the game.

I will always say that nothing compares to a devious, sneaky, cunning, vicious human on the other side.

(in reply to Reiryc)

Post #: 46

RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? - 12/30/2004 10:53:43 PM

adsoul

Posts: 159
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline

Definitely agreed... there's nothing like hating a human opponent in this game

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(in reply to 2ndACR)

Post #: 47

RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? - 12/30/2004 11:38:32 PM

Toast

Posts: 103
Joined: 10/14/2004
From: Charlotte, NC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bordric

Well turn based PC war games are not meant for Human vs. Human. People buy them for Human vs. AI and I think with todays technology there is no reason not to be able to make a good decent AI. I am not talking about human level but good strategic level AI. I suppose no one has the time or motivation to work on such AI because the sheep called "Wargamers", such as myself continue to by sub-par products.

There are some good AI's out there.

I think you are giving computers and programming abilities way too much credit. Chess has only been mastered by computers through raw processing power, the computers calcualte every move/counter move up to 10 moves in advance and pick the most advantageous move based on that. This is with a game that has a very finite number of moves and a very finite number of sqaures and no chance involved. Even then they can only win against grand masters by programmers programming all past games of that particular grand master and analyzing how they play the game which puts the human player at a severe disadvantage because the programmers do not provide past games of the computer program so the human player can also study them.

When you are talking about a game as large and complex as WITP where chance has a huge affect on the outcome and where startgic possibilities are virtually endless and tactical combinations are without measure, there is no way a computer program could ever out play a human opponent. Just think of how you would program the strategic decision making for an AI player in scenario 15 as the Japanese? You could not have the computer program do the same thing every time or it would be slaughtered by the human. It would have to randomly pick a strategic initiative but be able to alter it depending on progress (or lack thereof) in other theaters, the Allied reaction, etc. And it has to be able to handle anything an Allied player might throw out him, however unlikely or otherwise the AI would be laughable. I seriously doubt that any programmer can make a decent AI for any overly complex games like this. And I personally have never seen any AI on any turn-based simulation game that has been useful for anything but learning the system. After that to get true competition, a human-player is the only way to go.

But finding human players and actually playing a game of this scope IS very time consuming and hard to do. Back in the days of boardgames, I had many games that I played solitaire because I could never find the opponent or the time to get together with someone. I remember having a few that I played for months and months solitaire and then finally when I found a human oppoent being shocked and amazed at how much harder it was to play and how my tried and true strategies and tactics would fall apart in the face of a real thinking opponent. Did I enjoy those games when I was playing solitaire (the equivalent of AI today)? Yes I did. Did I enjoy them more when I had a human opponent? Yes, most definitely. The challenge was the difference between night and day. This is the same argument the wargaming has been having since it started. AI is definitely an improvement over solitaire. But nothing compares to the challenge a human player can give you. But this is a monster game by all definitions and not everybody can find the time and commitment to play a full PBEM game. But their are shorter scenarios and the AI Allied aginst a human Japanese player in the later scenarios is definitely very challenging.

(in reply to bordric)

Post #: 48

RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? - 12/30/2004 11:44:16 PM

Thayne

Posts: 748
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

I have nothing against anyone who plays against the AI, but i do feel that they are missing out on a HUGE part of the game. I will always say that nothing compares to a devious, sneaky, cunning, vicious human on the other side.

I think that, whether you go with an AI opponent, or a human opponent, you are missing out on something.

If you go with the AI, you are missing out on clever traps and the value of trying to put together little pieces of information to try to determine what that sneaky, devious individual is planning so that you can be prepared for it. Or not. Or of planning something, executing it, with all of the tension and apprehension of wondering whether it will work.

If you go with a human, however, you are missing out on an ability to simulate the actual war. Against a human, you pretty much have to be in the mindset of playing and winning a game -- manipulating electronic counters that have all of the significants of little electronic bits rather than human lives. If you decide that you want to play a commander who does not really know what your enemy is capable of, you effectively throw the game to your opponent and guarantee your defeat.

As for how important these different features are . . . well, individual tastes vary.

For my taste, the things I would be missing out on in playing a human opponent are the things that make the game interesting and enjoyable. They are the types of things that make it into my DAR.

But, I can well understand the point of view of the person who values what a human opponent can provide, and who has little or no interests in simulating the situation of a commander who suffers a historical ignorance of enemy capabilities and is commanding flesh-and-blood soldiers.

Yes, there are certain valuable features to be gained in playing a human. There are certain valuable features to be lost as well. For me, the trade off is not worth it. For somebody having different values, they could be.

< Message edited by Thayne -- 12/30/2004 9:47:02 PM >

(in reply to 2ndACR)

Post #: 49

RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? - 12/30/2004 11:51:10 PM

2ndACR

Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline

I got the gist of what you were saying, but the last little part threw me.

I try very hard not to lose any people/ships/aircraft during a PBEM game. Ask Ron how mush I wail and gripe when I lose 1400 men in a attack. I just find the AI lacking in stimulation for me.

Even though the disabled to destroyed is way too low. That is one of the main reasons everything is so fast paced. It is too easy to re-coup the losses in manpower. Plus the unit never loses any experience when gutted in combat and re-built.

But to each their own.

(in reply to Thayne)

Post #: 50

RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? - 12/31/2004 9:02:53 AM

Ron Saueracker

Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: denisonh

It is hard to simply reload a save or restart against a human opponent....

How many guys who have had PBEM games where the opponent simply disappeared after losing an engagement?

I had a number of UV PBEMs where opponents "bailed".

There are people who cannot deal with failing and those who lack the patinece to PBEM. AI play is much better suited for them.

Of course, AI for a complex game of this depth and detail is difficult. Wamnting it is fine, but being able to script and program something with this much complexity to be competent against all opponents and ploys is beyond reason. Galatic civilizations is a good example, but the comparison fails when the level of complexity is compared.

The "branches and sequels" created by the myriad of choices, options, capabilites, unit varieties, etc... gets is simply HUGE in WitP compared to other games. It is on par with DoD sims which make no attempt to have any "comprehensive" AI due to this complexity.

Put the requirements for the AI withe the level of complexity out for bid for a contract, and see what you get.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Knavey

Is there anyone in this forum, that has started a PBEM game and decided that PBEM was not as good as playing the AI?

I highly doubt you could find a handful if any!

You guys that are hesitant to start a PBEM game, you have NO idea what a blast you are missing out on.

I am one of ltfighters opponents in a 4 way free for all. Feinder and I are playing ltfighter and kbullard, and the action is much more intense than any AI game I have started...and I started quite a few of them. Just like one poster said and then he abandoned them. Trust me...you get to know your troops a lot closer in PBEM games. The turns tend to be done with a bit more care (since I know kb or lt will gloat if they hammer me because of a mistake and I don't want to let Feinder down by doing something stupid with my theaters) and every mistake you make is just an opportunity for the opponent to exploit it. When I make mistakes with the AI, I just shrug it off because I know it can only capitalize on it so far.

With a human opponent, if I make the wrong decision, you better believe the water will come pouring through the holes in your ships and it will be much more difficult to recover from it.

My advice...give PBEM a try...just one game. You guys that swear by the AI...try a few weeks worth of turns against a human. After that, I will bet you will pick up a second game or two just to keep your modem busy sending the turns back and forth.

Anyone who "bails" should be added to a player rating list.

_____________________________

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to denisonh)

Post #: 51

RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? - 12/31/2004 9:21:10 AM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

PBEM is the ultimate. The AI will never compare to a sneaky, devious human.

Me and Ron average about 6 turns per day on most days. Me and Pzb average 2 turns a day.

And that is just average. Me and Ron have done 12 turns in one day a couple of times. But a month of game time per week of real time is the norm.

6 a day? Do you have a job? A life? When do you go to your kids' soccer games, the theater, the ball game, watch football, go to a movie??? I play Capt Kruft and we are lucky to exchange two a WEEK.

(in reply to 2ndACR)

Post #: 52

RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? - 12/31/2004 9:32:32 AM

Ron Saueracker

Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

PBEM is the ultimate. The AI will never compare to a sneaky, devious human.

Me and Ron average about 6 turns per day on most days. Me and Pzb average 2 turns a day.

And that is just average. Me and Ron have done 12 turns in one day a couple of times. But a month of game time per week of real time is the norm.

6 a day? Do you have a job? A life? When do you go to your kids' soccer games, the theater, the ball game, watch football, go to a movie??? I play Capt Kruft and we are lucky to exchange two a WEEK.

Of course we do, sort of. Dave's a private contractor who temporarily handed over the reins after reupping for overseas military service. I'm in the middle of a partnership debacle over my bar and am dealing with legalities and audits. I don't suffer assholes, addicts and gutless fence sitters well so it's better I keep my distance or I may lose my temper and slap one or both of the little pukes around.

I've come very close already and it makes one look wrong when even overwhelmingly in the right.

Sooo, we have time on our hands, even though we'd rather be working. The fact that we are insomniacs helps too.

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RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? - 12/31/2004 3:16:56 PM

Skander

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Toast

I think you are giving computers and programming abilities way too much credit. Chess has only been mastered by computers through raw processing power, the computers calcualte every move/counter move up to 10 moves in advance and pick the most advantageous move based on that. This is with a game that has a very finite number of moves and a very finite number of sqaures and no chance involved. Even then they can only win against grand masters by programmers programming all past games of that particular grand master and analyzing how they play the game which puts the human player at a severe disadvantage because the programmers do not provide past games of the computer program so the human player can also study them.

When you are talking about a game as large and complex as WITP where chance has a huge affect on the outcome and where startgic possibilities are virtually endless and tactical combinations are without measure, there is no way a computer program could ever out play a human opponent. Just think of how you would program the strategic decision making for an AI player in scenario 15 as the Japanese? You could not have the computer program do the same thing every time or it would be slaughtered by the human. It would have to randomly pick a strategic initiative but be able to alter it depending on progress (or lack thereof) in other theaters, the Allied reaction, etc. And it has to be able to handle anything an Allied player might throw out him, however unlikely or otherwise the AI would be laughable. I seriously doubt that any programmer can make a decent AI for any overly complex games like this. And I personally have never seen any AI on any turn-based simulation game that has been useful for anything but learning the system. After that to get true competition, a human-player is the only way to go.

I absolutely agree. WitP is many many orders of magnitude more complicated than chess, and to approach it in the same way (brute force) for the AI would require a SETI@home scale system. It isn't going to happen anytime soon, and even with Moore's law remaining in effect it isn't going to happen in our lifetimes. Developing an AI for this sort of game which can survive the first few games against a competent human is going to require constant analysis and updating by a full time crew of programmers. It's hard enough to get a game this complex to work at all while remaining economically viable for the producer. The chances of AI as good as that currently available for chess without a massive improvement in the approach we take to designing AI is slim indeed.

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Post #: 54

RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? - 12/31/2004 3:37:36 PM

Ron Saueracker

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Personally, I think the AI is invariably horrible in any game of this scope and wasting time on a full campaign vs the AI was a major mistake. Everyone knows that the tech and time is not there to make it work. Full campaigns for PBEM and H2H only. I think the AI aspect should have been approached differently so that it had a chance. I would have taken the "modular" approach and just linked a massive series of mini battles and campaigns and graded player performance that way. Would have limited the options for the AI and the human player,thereby giving the AI a better chance of performing it's limited missions better and avoiding the inevitable player variances in strategy which, over time, totally confound the AI.

Player performance could have been rewarded by adding a fluctuating OOB pool depending on the theatres strategic value, much the way the Close Combat and "****** General" games did. This way a player's performance could somewhat abstractly affect future battles.

Too late now anyway.

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RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? - 12/31/2004 8:55:35 PM

WiTP_Dude

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I don't know how the AI could ever be that good in a game of this scope. I supposed they could of had a dozen brillant mathematicians working on it for five years but then it would have cost $700 instead of $70. So when playing the AI, best to stick exactly to the script to give the computer a chance.

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Post #: 56

RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? - 12/31/2004 9:49:29 PM

jwilkerson

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From: Kansas
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The WITP AI seems to be able to do a very credible job of taking out the entire SRA in the first six months. And i find in PBEM that this is not as easy as I expected ... there is a LOT to do. So I'd give this AI some credit. That being said ... most AI in most games sucks and I've come to expect that. The AI is for limited practicing ... real play should be human to human.

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Post #: 57

RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? - 12/31/2004 9:55:00 PM

Halsey

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You're right on target boss!

Fighting the AI is strictly for practice and learning the mechanics of the game. Let's face it, when you botch up a turn vs the AI it get's reloaded and replayed. Everybody does it! That's not an option in a PBEM game unless your opponent is very understanding.

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Post #: 58

RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? - 12/31/2004 11:03:43 PM

Mike Scholl

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From: Kansas City, MO
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AMEN! I think you have to be a bit of a sadist to want to play against the AI once you
have a good grasp on the rules. It's like kicking a puppy. The poor thing wants to
please you..., it just doesn't know how.

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Post #: 59

RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? - 12/31/2004 11:12:29 PM

Halsey

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Boring is the word. No offense is intended, but, I know I'm going to win against the AI. Been wargaming for 35+ years.

I've never ever played a game that the AI won, surprised sometimes, that's about all you can expect. It's as simple as that.

< Message edited by Halsey -- 12/31/2004 4:12:45 PM >

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