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RE: Rangoon dies

 
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RE: Rangoon dies - 1/16/2005 1:18:55 AM   
Luskan

 

Posts: 1897
Joined: 7/11/2002
From: Down Under
Status: offline
Whatever Raver's pilots are smoking, it is giving them hallucinations! Obviously he needs to start either 1. A drug screening program, or 2. administering truth serum on his returning pilots. For starters, tyhe oil production at Rangoon hasn't been hit badly enough to not be instantly repaired - this turn or last turn. Second, well, he shot down less than a third of the oscars he claimed to kill. The actual totals (including op losses, losses due to flak etc) were actually about even.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 08/02/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack at 52,94

Japanese Ships
SS RO-33

Allied Ships
ML Pro Patria, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage - stuff this - I want transports damnnit!
PG Isabel

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Rangoon , at 29,34

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 7
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 50

Allied aircraft
Wellington III x 53
Beaufort V-IX x 8
P-40B Tomahawk x 55
B-25C Mitchell x 130

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 4 destroyed, 2 damaged
Ki-43-Ib Oscar: 43 destroyed, 6 damaged - Not even close. I lost 9 according to the intel page, (therefore 9 lost pilots) although MANY more planes were damaged than 6. It looked really bad on the combat replay because all of the AVG pilots have got kills - so there were a dozen "pilot X of the AVG gets kill 6) while there were only 6 jap pilots adding to their kill tallys (green pilots).

But green no longer really - and Rangoon is no longer open season. He's going to have to try something else!

Allied aircraft losses
Wellington III: 2 destroyed, 13 damaged
Beaufort V-IX: 1 damaged
P-40B Tomahawk: 9 destroyed, 12 damaged
B-25C Mitchell: 7 destroyed, 18 damaged - adds up about the same as the intel page.

Oil hits 27 - dreaming.

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
9 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
4 x Beaufort V-IX bombing at 6000 feet
6 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
6 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
33 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
22 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
18 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
8 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
4 x Beaufort V-IX bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
4 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
7 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
8 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
22 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
11 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
5 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TF 51 troops unloading over beach at Gasmata, 59,90


Japanese ground losses:
62 casualties reported


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Attu Island

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 2091 troops, 9 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 0 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 16 to 1 (fort level 0)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Attu Island base !!! - My empire's borders expand ever further.

As you can see, things are hotting up. I'm reconning in and around the Solomons for Raver's troops. i've got 1 unit of badguys at Lunga, and some at PNG. Raver said there were troops at lae but my recon troops at finschafen didn't see any activity. Maybe Raver is a liar? Wouldn't be the first time.

_____________________________

With dancing Bananas and Storm Troopers who needs BBs?

(in reply to String)
Post #: 751
RE: Rangoon dies - 1/16/2005 10:26:24 AM   
Luskan

 

Posts: 1897
Joined: 7/11/2002
From: Down Under
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This turn Raver tried the liberators at Rangoon. A smaller number of fighters were there to meet them - but the 50 odd liberators that attacked lost 9 to flak, airpower and operational losses. No fighter escort made my boys job easy.

On the downside, they did blow up another 15 planes on the ground. irritating, and costs me points, but I've got 900 a6m2s in the replacement pool, and I'ev got 400 oscars so I'm not worried yet.

Thunderstorms this turn in the area, so we'll see if Raver decides to fly anyway.

In other news my ASW team off Rabaul blew the Cachalot to hell, and I increased nakajima engine production to cover my costs as it were.

Oh, and bad guys spotted at Lae.

_____________________________

With dancing Bananas and Storm Troopers who needs BBs?

(in reply to Luskan)
Post #: 752
RE: Rangoon dies - 1/17/2005 1:39:32 PM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
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Luskan got hit bad this turn at Rangoon, and is none too happy about it either. While he may have a heap of aircraft in his pool at this rate he will run out of AC frames by the end of '42. He is going to HAVE to do something about Akyab and do it fast.................and I am counting on this fact as I have a nice surprise waiting for when he does. In the turn before this one on of my fast transport TFs got caught by a rather large bombardment TF at GC and got mauled.

The first raid by the B-17s flew against Rabal today, but at 33,000 feet they had little or no trouble................but the BDA of the target showed how usless it is bombing from this hight. However I have little choice as there are no fighters that can yet escort the bombers that far from PM. So it is a case of stay high and be safe.

I had put a squadron of RAAF Kittyhawks at Lae but this turn the place was pounded by a bombardment TF..........most of the personal hurt or killed were the ground support crews for the fighters. I may have to re think having my fighters so far forward.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 08/05/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naval bombardment of Lae, at 54,87


Allied aircraft
no flights


Allied aircraft losses
Kittyhawk I: 4 destroyed

Japanese Ships
DD Yunagi
DD Asanagi
DD Ikazuchi
CL Abukuma
CL Kashima
CA Mogami
CA Ashigara
CA Maya
BB Ise
BB Kirishima
BB Hiei


Allied ground losses:
234 casualties reported
Guns lost 4

Airbase hits 1
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Rangoon , at 29,34

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
Wellington III x 69
Beaufort V-IX x 14
P-40B Tomahawk x 50
B-25C Mitchell x 137

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-Ib Oscar: 147 destroyed, 88 damaged
A6M2 Zero: 43 destroyed, 21 damaged
Ki-46-II Dinah: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged Now that has GOT to hurt.
Allied aircraft losses
Wellington III: 2 damaged
B-25C Mitchell: 5 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
544 casualties reported
Guns lost 9

Airbase hits 32
Airbase supply hits 16
Runway hits 261

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
6 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
4 x Beaufort V-IX bombing at 6000 feet
4 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
6 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
16 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
8 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
9 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
4 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
4 x Beaufort V-IX bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
13 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
13 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
4 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
7 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Beaufort V-IX bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
6 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
6 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
8 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
2 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Beaufort V-IX bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
6 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
4 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
2 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
2 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
4 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
4 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
2 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
4 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Rabaul , at 61,88

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 3

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 273

Japanese aircraft losses
H8K Emily: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 5 destroyed, 5 damaged


Japanese ground losses:
65 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Airbase hits 1
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 19

Aircraft Attacking:
15 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 33000 feet
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 33000 feet
27 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 33000 feet
19 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 33000 feet
30 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 33000 feet
20 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 33000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 33000 feet
15 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 33000 feet
8 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 33000 feet
13 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 33000 feet
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 33000 feet
15 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 33000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 33000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 33000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 33000 feet
12 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 33000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 33000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 33000 feet
10 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 33000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 33000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 33000 feet
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 33000 feet
5 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 33000 feet
5 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 33000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 33000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 33000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 33000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 33000 feet
2 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 33000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 33000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 33000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 33000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 33000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 33000 feet
2 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 33000 feet
2 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 33000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Tassafaronga at 66,97

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 21

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 4 destroyed, 15 damaged

Allied Ships
DD Farragut
DD King, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
DD Waters
DD Lawrence
DMS Trevor
DE Albert T. Harris

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
1 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Lunga at 67,97

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 3

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
AK Tjikarang

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Tassafaronga at 66,97

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 3 damaged

Allied Ships
DD Waters

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet

_____________________________




Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to Luskan)
Post #: 753
RE: Rangoon dies - 1/17/2005 2:30:05 PM   
Luskan

 

Posts: 1897
Joined: 7/11/2002
From: Down Under
Status: offline
Not to play the sulk, but I just can't give these results credit. At this stage in 1942 this result just isn't likely at Rangoon. Especially since the detail missing is that ALL these allied bombing raids are incredibly successful because they're flying in the midst of thunderstorms. Four raids in a row now. Starting to wonder if Raver even checks the weather? his planes certainly don't abort or get lost.

Was it a fluke? Of course every jap fanboy is thinking that, and allowing for that. Except its been 4 air raids in a row in 6 turns . . . this turn the same thing (only worse) happened at rangoon. My planes on the ground were ALL brand new (so damaged since they'd just come from the pool) so I couldn't evac my squadrons. The thunderstorms are still there, but the allied mediums (numbering 200) blast over 200 damaged aircraft to hell without breaking a sweat.

So the problem is that Raver can do this turn after turn - I can never evac damaged units because he can do it back to back missions, and now only blow all the existing aircraft at an airbase to hell (with unlikely odds) but he can also do it the next turn and doubly empty my replacement pools.

My replacement pools have been emptied in three turns just like that. I cannot afford to replace them - and nor will I get a chance to ever withdraw those units. They'll just keep sucking out replacements (unless I stop them - but I can't - each unit needs at least 1 active plane to transfer etc) that arrived damaged and stay damaged until they're blown up.

I think this war might just have had its penultimate moment. We've had game ending bugs before - the last one was that I couldn't get any human controlled tf to load oil or resources for 2 weeks. Autoconvoy could load them - but human controlled tfs couldn't (and lets face it - the autoconvoy was not working real well if there are millions of piles of resources sitting around at my ports but the home islands are all starving (in the red for supply). Fortunately for us the lastpatch fixed that and I spent two weeks playing catch up. Now this (which in spite of my annoyance at getting bruised, I think is a big fat bug).

Question is, would this still be a problem if Raver and I had not started this game pre-beta???

Having doubts.

_____________________________

With dancing Bananas and Storm Troopers who needs BBs?

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 754
RE: Rangoon dies - 1/17/2005 10:26:25 PM   
Capt. Harlock


Posts: 5358
Joined: 9/15/2001
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

They'll just keep sucking out replacements (unless I stop them - but I can't - each unit needs at least 1 active plane to transfer etc) that arrived damaged and stay damaged until they're blown up.

I think this war might just have had its penultimate moment.


It'll be a great pity if you have to abandon the game, but I can certainly see your point. Ideally there should be an option to prevent the individual air units from drawing replacements--which in time will essentially disband them. Is there any possibility you could evacuate the squadrons on board cargo ships?

_____________________________

Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

--Victor Hugo

(in reply to Luskan)
Post #: 755
RE: Rangoon dies - 1/18/2005 3:17:33 AM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline
So what is to be done? I Really REALLY don't want to abandon this game now..........we have simply come to far and I have too much on the go right now.....PNG is about to explode as is the solomans And I must admit that am getting worn down of "constantly" play '41/'42 like some ground hog day.

I have a few ideas to keep this game alive which I will email to Luskan when I get home tonight.

_____________________________




Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to Capt. Harlock)
Post #: 756
RE: Rangoon dies - 1/18/2005 3:37:20 AM   
WiTP_Dude


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Don't bomb for a day and let him evac those air groups to Bangkok?

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 757
RE: Rangoon dies - 1/18/2005 6:49:11 AM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline
More like don't bomb for a few days, let him evac. MRB are only allowed to bomb from a min hight of 12,000 for '42 LRB min hight 15,000 for '42.

First half of '43 MRB min bomb hight 9,000 and after June'43 down to 6,000. No skip bombing till after June '43.

LRB allowed to bomb from 6000 anytime from '43 onwards.

_____________________________




Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to WiTP_Dude)
Post #: 758
RE: Rangoon dies - 1/18/2005 7:12:09 AM   
ADavidB


Posts: 2464
Joined: 9/17/2001
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

More like don't bomb for a few days, let him evac. MRB are only allowed to bomb from a min hight of 12,000 for '42 LRB min hight 15,000 for '42.

First half of '43 MRB min bomb hight 9,000 and after June'43 down to 6,000. No skip bombing till after June '43.

LRB allowed to bomb from 6000 anytime from '43 onwards.


Pardon me if you explained this some time back, but I'm curious - why did you choose those altitude restrictions for bombing? Are they related to some problem in the version of the game that you are playing? The only altitude issue that I remember seeing was the over-accuracy of B-17s flying over 30,000 feet.

Thanks -

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 759
RE: Rangoon dies - 1/18/2005 7:21:03 AM   
WiTP_Dude


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I was thinking you could just pause to let him recover a few aircraft and fly the groups out. Then you can finish off whatever is left behind that was too damaged to escape. Otherwise he should just turn replacements off and wait until he has enough additional Zero groups to attempt a rescue.

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 760
RE: Rangoon dies - 1/18/2005 10:00:45 AM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline
I dont think there is a fundamnetal problem with the game you have concentrated almost the whole RAF heavy bomber force and what 3 USAAF Medium bomber gps to close one base all escorted by 2 Fighter Gps equipped with an old fighter

The problem is less about the results acheived which I think are right on the money and more about the ahistorical concnetration of force in India in 42 and the fact that as a player Raverdave has retained Tomahawks to provide ranged escorts.

I genuinely dont see this as a bug but as a player issue and given the other a historical things that happen in a game like this is an Allied player using hindsight to concnetrate his bombing force for daylight raids wrong ?

I dont think so.

And wothout heavy losses from fighter cover its a milk run (apart from the weather) for those bomber crews.

If he is flying in a thunderstorm he will take ops losses but by the looks of things nothing else is going to stop him. How many ops losses dd he take on the rangoon raid ?

I genuinely dont have a problem with this one.

(in reply to WiTP_Dude)
Post #: 761
RE: Rangoon dies - 1/18/2005 11:28:29 AM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
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From: Alexandria, Scotland
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I hasten to add at least one IJ player has done the same thing to me at PM using betties or Nells its not an easy thing to overcome.

Perhaps the easiest thing is to get a fragment of another unit of the same type.

i.e. a one or two plane subunit transfer them to the base and withdraw the depleted gp into the subunit then upgrade the subunits parent and all fragments automatically recombine with the newly upgraded parent.

Its cumbersome but appears the least risky way of sorting your issue Luskan...

Andy

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 762
RE: Rangoon dies - 1/18/2005 11:51:52 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
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Hi,
You can disband groups
you can load airgroups onto ships even when AC are damaged.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 1/18/2005 4:52:14 AM >


_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 763
RE: Rangoon dies - 1/18/2005 12:13:57 PM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline
Well in an effort to keep the game running I have asked if Luskan is happy with the above bombing hights, and hope to have a reply from him later tonight.
That is the only reson that I have come up with the minimum bomb hights....to keep the game running.
However with the exception of the issue of my planes bombing a target that has rain/thunderstorms, I don't really think that there is a problem with the damage done to the airfield.
Now if we look back on the opening movesof this game, I lost well in excess of 300+ aircraft on Dec 7th, half of those were lost in the PI....as Luskan wrote in the opening of this AAR......."My bombers hit a few malayan bases for little to no gain, and hit the airfield at singapore - again for little or no gain, although my zeros did enjoy shooting down buffaloes.
At least my raids on Clark were as devastating as the raid at pearl - which netted me 146 of Raver's aircraft destroyed on the ground alone."

(Allied) airpower when massed is like Thor's hammer....it is going to smash anything it hits..............It has happened to me and it has happened to Luskan. I think what has really got Luskan so frustrated is the fact that my bombers flew while his fighters sat on the ground because of the thunderstorm, more than the actual damage done.

_____________________________




Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 764
RE: Rangoon dies - 1/18/2005 12:37:05 PM   
Andy Mac

 

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From: Alexandria, Scotland
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I guess fighters not flying could happen for many reasons airfield U/S from previous raids, Lack of supply, radar damaged on previous raid, poor leaders in IJA sqns, Fighter pilots with low morale not taking off as the base is rained off, emporers birthday party the night before and all pilots still drunk etc....

Japanese pilot ...."no point in putting cap up in this weather allies would never bomb in this rain"

Allied 10th Air Force "....we have a clear day in Calcutta and I dont care how many bombers crash into each other over Rangoon I want that airfield pulverised whatever the cost..."

Could happen ;)

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 765
RE: Rangoon dies - 1/18/2005 1:42:15 PM   
mogami


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HI, The thunderstorms are not in every hex. Or are you reporting a bug?
If there is a thunderstorm in the bombers airfield there will be a cloud icon and no offensive missions will take off.
If there is a thunderstorm in the target hex there will be a cloud icon and no offensive missions will enter the hex.
If there are no cloud icons then there are no thunderstorms.


The weather status shown on the map is only a forecast of the worse weather possible. Most hexes will always be considered clear.

If you want to recreate the actual weather accuratly you should have both sides stand down all aircraft from May 15 to Oct 15 ()monsoon) from Bangkok to Dacca.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 1/18/2005 6:47:20 AM >


_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 766
RE: Rangoon dies - 1/18/2005 2:02:25 PM   
Andy Mac

 

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From: Alexandria, Scotland
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I may have this wrong but I thought depending on morale leader etc offensive missions could fly into a thunderstorm but the chance of ops losses was much greater.

Not sure if this is realsitic but I thought it was how it was modelled...

Andy

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 767
RE: Rangoon dies - 1/18/2005 2:04:47 PM   
mogami


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Hi, I say again
In WITP offensive missions do not fly into or out of bad weather.
Bad weather is shown by placing a icon in the hex with the weather.
No icon no bad weather
If they are flying into or out of hexes with icons then it is a bug

_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 768
RE: Rangoon dies - 1/18/2005 3:11:12 PM   
Luskan

 

Posts: 1897
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From: Down Under
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Hrm - some good ideas here. I don't want to abandon this game eithe r- but I don't want to restrict Raver in his options - he must be free to use his forces as he sees fit and as he thinks are most effective.

I have misunderstood thewhole weather forecast thing. When it says thunderstorms, my understanding was that it was a "region" of the map, not individual hexes. Stopping replacements is a possibility, but then I'd never be able to evac the 500 stranded pilots from Rangoon. I can't load destroyed aircraft onto a ship, so problem there too.

However, loading planes onto a ship to evac is a MUCH better solution to the problem as I see it. It gets my planes out, and means that Raver doesn't have to run with house rules (I have no problem with the damage done to the airfield, just the number of planes hammered on the ground - when I SWORE the weather would keep them from flying - just as Andy Mac said).

As for op losses in bad weather - there haven't been many. Maybe 1 or 2 for the allies per turn, more likely damaged by flak and cap as well.

_____________________________

With dancing Bananas and Storm Troopers who needs BBs?

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 769
RE: Rangoon dies - 1/18/2005 3:29:47 PM   
mogami


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Hi, The listed weather is only a forecast. And it is only a forecast of the worse weather conditions possible for the following turn for hexes inside the zone. It is not existing weather in every hex in the zone. If the bad weather does occur inside a particular hex it will be shown by placing a cloud icon on the hex. Weather conditions can change per phase.
It might be bad in the AM but clear in the PM.
To prevent offensive air missions the weather has to be bad in either the bombers airfield or the target.
Recon/patrol/CAP flies in all weather.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 1/18/2005 8:31:07 AM >


_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Luskan)
Post #: 770
RE: Rangoon dies - 1/18/2005 3:38:42 PM   
WhoCares


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Lesson learned: never cancel all defensive missions, whatever the conditions might be.

I think the AI had taught me that lesson before. Now I always keep a CAP in the air (at least in contested areas), and also important LR-CAPS, e.g. over landing parties. Maybe that's the reason why ~50% of my Zeros went down to Ops losses...
(now, it is disputable, whether it is better to let the pilots die in a crash landing than having your airgroups trashed on an undefended airfield - considering that experienced pilots are one of your most valuable assets in-game; psychological it is definatly better to see them in the air during an attack )

(in reply to Luskan)
Post #: 771
RE: Rangoon dies - 1/18/2005 10:31:04 PM   
Capt. Harlock


Posts: 5358
Joined: 9/15/2001
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

Stopping replacements is a possibility, but then I'd never be able to evac the 500 stranded pilots from Rangoon. I can't load destroyed aircraft onto a ship, so problem there too.


But from what Mogami says, you *can* load damaged aircraft. Perhaps you and Raver could declare that the B-25's cannot fly anti-ship missions for a week or so -- the quartermaster forgot to ship the proper ordnance. This should allow you to evacuate the air units with acceptable losses.

_____________________________

Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

--Victor Hugo

(in reply to Luskan)
Post #: 772
RE: Rangoon dies - 1/18/2005 10:35:48 PM   
Gen.Hoepner


Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline
For what i've experienced so far i believe that storms prevent you from flying an air mission only if they are settled on your base, not on the destination Hex. When a storm rises up on the hex you're bombing this will heavily increase the chances of not locating the target and the damage suffered by the bombed hex is often smaller.

_____________________________

[image]http://yfrog.com/2m70331348022314716641664j [/image]

(in reply to Capt. Harlock)
Post #: 773
RE: Rangoon dies - 1/19/2005 1:10:59 AM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline
So Luskan's reply explains it............I have not been seeing ANY storms over either my airfield or Rangoon when the attacks went in, yet Luskan thought that he was. I can confirm that when the cloud Icon is over any of my airfields, nothing flys.

On with the war!

_____________________________




Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to Gen.Hoepner)
Post #: 774
RE: Rangoon dies - 1/19/2005 8:29:41 AM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline
I have repeatedly seen raids fly into t-storms in my games. Both my raids and raids from my opponents. T-storms will cancel raids from your base, but they do not seem to deter raids going into them.

It is quite irritating when the T-storm prevents your CAP from flying, yet his a/c come in and plaster you. I guess I read the rules wrong. I thought it was supposed to work that way.

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 775
RE: Rangoon dies - 1/19/2005 8:59:18 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline
Hi, Weather does not stop CAP or recon or Patrol. It only stops offensive missions.
Bombing, Naval Strikes and Sweeps.

If you have a save where an offensive mission leaves or enters a hex with a cloud icon in it send it to MNeer1@woh.rr.com

_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to 2ndACR)
Post #: 776
RE: Rangoon dies - 1/19/2005 10:27:20 AM   
PzB74


Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline
Been having a lot of this against Wobbly - it's a lottery - and the guy with the biggest hammer usually wins. As the Allies got a lot of long range bombers, this isn't really as exciting as it sounds. I've been hammered in early 42 several times already. One of the reasons for invading India and subduing the Allies here was that I knew that air power in this region would wreck havoc on everything I got within range of their bases as soon as enough heavies were in place.

The Jap player will either have to send in a lot of crack Zero Daitais to Rangoon to stop this menace, and even this would be a most uncertain gamble. The fact is that these Zeros are desperately needed elsewhere, so the only option as far as I'm concerned is to withdraw most of the the assets as soon as losses becomes to excessive!

It's certainly a really bad feeling to see your best squadrons get hammered in the air and on the ground for nothing.
You know the saying Luskan...no mercy for the bad if he wants it - guess that's the price we got to pay for playing the Evil Empire!

_____________________________



"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 777
RE: Rangoon dies - 1/19/2005 11:26:40 AM   
Luskan

 

Posts: 1897
Joined: 7/11/2002
From: Down Under
Status: offline
All true. A turn later and not a single plane at rangoon has been repaired. Salvation won't come for them as it'll take ages to get any empty aks up there to offload them.

This turn I'm irritated that for the second time in 3 turns, a transport tf of Raver's that is unloading at Lunga detects my incoming DD raid by ESP and dodges out the way again (get the message tf1055 reacting to enemy surface combat tf) - when no allied plane, coastal watcher etc has EVER spotted that tf. How is that supposed to happen?

Even worse - I know how to get around it! Set my dds to bombard and the enemy tfs won't dodge (although my tfs won't engage as long).

_____________________________

With dancing Bananas and Storm Troopers who needs BBs?

(in reply to PzB74)
Post #: 778
RE: Rangoon dies - 1/19/2005 2:58:15 PM   
Luskan

 

Posts: 1897
Joined: 7/11/2002
From: Down Under
Status: offline
As for this turns results, still a bit unhappy. This time about a different feeling of imbalance (just a feeling).

262 allied heavies over rabaul at 33000 with a handful of the worst zero pilots in history to oppose still do minor damage? Too early to judge - if they were at 10000 and got this result I'd be annoyed at how underpowered they are. Rabaul probably isn't that hard to hit from 33000 feet compared to some targets.

As for the result off Lunga - I've had 2 CV divisions working with my subs since week 3 of this game to sucker Raver's ASW assets after one of my subs and away from Raver's aircover, and then blowing them to hell. I figured it would only work once - but just one of those vulnerable little ASW tfs with ships in it that haven't had AA upgrades (drool).

I know this particular tf was a fast transport tf - and wasn't really after the sub I left as bait at Lunga, but since they sank the sub while offloading troops I'm happy to call it a fair trade.

All that wasted time, finally a result. Off Johnson island for SO LONG with no result - 2 to 4 CVs on station basically all the time just hoping that I'd cull an ASW TF. I even rolled extra CVs into my two cv divisions to do it this time. (had to break up my 5 divisions while I've got the first series of my big ship upgrades going). I lost 13 planes all up, but only 9 pilots. 2 of the 9 pilots were excellent pilots. The other 7 were all post pearl harbour replacements who were never up to scratch - whereas most of the other post pearl pilots have been thoroughly trained for the last 9 months of gaming to be at least competent (making their squadron average exp much higher). Still pilots in the navy replacement pool at 55 exp. I'll be doing some training soon (again). Then there will be the big CV battle, which I doubt my CV forces can survive - although that isn't the primary aim. The main aim is to maul Raver badly enough to hinder invasions long enough that I can win the game on points (gonna be close if I win the CV battle!).

Probably not a bad time to take Lunga - Raver won't be using fast transport any more until he ships in some more fast transport capable ships. Of course there are plenty in Oz, but they've got their hands ful with my subs.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 08/08/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack near Lunga at 67,97

Japanese Ships
SS I-159, hits 3, on fire, heavy damage, sinks.

Allied Ships
DMS Elliot
DMS Perry
DMS Boggs
DMS Hopkins
DMS Hovey
APD Sands
APD Humphreys
APD Stringham
APD McKean
APD Little
APD Gregory
APD Colhoun
APD Manley
DD Flusser

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack at 45,43

Japanese Ships
AK Yamagiri Maru
PC Shonon Maru #10
MSW Yoshino Maru

Allied Ships
SS Sailfish

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Rabaul , at 61,88

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 3

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 262

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed
G4M1 Betty: 10 destroyed, 20 damaged
E13A1 Jake: 1 destroyed
H8K Emily: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged


Japanese ground losses:
273 casualties reported
Guns lost 7

Airbase hits 4
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 26


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 67,101 - the big all out strike.

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 76
D3A Val x 60
B5N Kate x 42

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 3 destroyed, 11 damaged
B5N Kate: 2 destroyed, 21 damaged

Allied Ships
DD Case, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
APD Gregory, Bomb hits 6, on fire, heavy damage
DD Cushing, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
DD Bagley
DMS Hopkins, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
APD Manley
DD Ralph Talbot, Bomb hits 1
DMS Elliot
DMS Perry
DD Mugford, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Helm
DD Hammann
APD Sands, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
APD McKean, Bomb hits 2, on fire
APD Colhoun, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 67,101

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 31
D3A Val x 40
B5N Kate x 20

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 3 destroyed, 10 damaged
B5N Kate: 8 destroyed, 15 damaged

Allied Ships
DD Flusser, Bomb hits 2, on fire
APD Manley, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
APD Humphreys, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Cushing, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DMS Boggs, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
APD McKean, Bomb hits 6, on fire, heavy damage
DD Ralph Talbot, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
DD Hammann
DD Preston
DMS Hopkins, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 67,101

Japanese aircraft
B5N Kate x 15

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N Kate: 3 destroyed, 4 damaged

Allied Ships
DMS Hovey
DD Mugford, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Ralph Talbot, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 67,101

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 21
D3A Val x 44
B5N Kate x 36

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 2 damaged
B5N Kate: 7 damaged

Allied Ships
DD Sims, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Bagley, Bomb hits 1, on fire
APD Manley, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Cushing, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DMS Hovey, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Helm, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Hammann
DD Blue, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Preston
DD Case, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 67,101

Japanese aircraft
D3A Val x 19
B5N Kate x 13

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N Kate: 2 damaged

Allied Ships
APD Little
DMS Perry
APD Sands, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
APD Stringham, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Cushing, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
APD Humphreys, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage




Leaves me a little uncovered since I've got 1 division in the bay of Bengal (alone against the british is fine - but Raver's already proven he's willing to move his US fleet CVs into the Bay before . . .) and the 2nd CV division is . . . well it is ready and on station for where I expect Raver's reaction to arrive. Lots of LBA on hand - because Raver will use the allied death star approach no doubt. Good news is, I'm 99% sure I know where Raver's CVs are - mainly because I KNOW what he expects me to do with regards to a certain theatre (he's seen me do it succesfully time and time again in previous games) and I know for dead certainty he's waiting for it.

_____________________________

With dancing Bananas and Storm Troopers who needs BBs?

(in reply to Luskan)
Post #: 779
RE: Rangoon dies - 1/20/2005 2:08:11 PM   
Luskan

 

Posts: 1897
Joined: 7/11/2002
From: Down Under
Status: offline
Another very quiet turn. The first two aircraft came online at Rangoon this turn. yay.

I have always maintained that blowing up supplies shouldn't be as easy as it is at a fort. Now the chronic lack of supply at rangoon hampers the transferring of planes out - still ahve to rush some AK's in before Raver's new wave of bombers hits.

Don't think I'm dumb enough to hang around at Truk for Raver's b17 armada to hunt me down.

_____________________________

With dancing Bananas and Storm Troopers who needs BBs?

(in reply to Luskan)
Post #: 780
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