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Coral Sea scenario - 1/1/2005 9:40:14 PM   
Salient

 

Posts: 64
Joined: 8/4/2003
From: Belgium
Status: offline 		I played through the tuturiol and the controls seem to be pretty straight forward, I should be able to tackle them.

Now I plan to play the Coral Sea Scenario as the Allies against the AI. I fired it up and played 6 turns. I must admit I'm quit overwhelmed, more than I expected , lost the Yorktown after 5 turns when my taskforce was spotted by the Japs.

I think I know what my strategy should be (hold PM, reinforce Luganville and bring up the CV's unhurt while keeping a high CAP level and harrasing the Japs with subs), but would really like to get some advice from you guys.

Please excuse my lack of knowledge of the Pacific War (should get a book) and noobness for the game, I know I just gonna have to jump in, but a few pointers would be more than welcome

Thanks
Post #: 1
RE: Coral Sea scenario - 1/2/2005 5:04:33 AM   
pacwar

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 11/21/2004
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		Can't give you much specific advice since I'm knee deep in my first campaign...the year one scenario, but from previous experience I can suggest that in order to learn the system you should try different strategies and tactics using the same turn...your carriers get sunk, just run the turn again, try something differet just to see how it turns out. Of course the AI can give you much different results from running the same turn twice even if you don't do anything different, but since this is a learning exercise don't hesitate to experiment...

As far as books go, there is a recent thread that discusses books for the period. I don't remember if this book was mentioned but I picked it up a couple of weeks ago, The Eagle and the Rising Sun by Alan Schom. It covers the first 12-18 months of the war and focuses on the Solomon's campaign in particular, so it is very relevant for the Corral Sea and Guadalcanal scenarios.

Good luck.

db

(in reply to Salient)
Post #: 2
RE: Coral Sea scenario - 1/2/2005 5:07:56 AM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		If you plan on playing PBEM, then only use the AI for training purposes. You will learn some really bad habits that will get you your head handed to you against a human.

Training purposes means to get you used to giving orders and getting used to the interface etc. Not tactics or strategies per se. Everything is a little different in PBEM.

(in reply to pacwar)
Post #: 3
RE: Coral Sea scenario - 1/2/2005 5:38:04 AM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Another suggestion might be to train up on UV first ( Uncommon Valour ) which is the micro-game for the Solomons and New Guinea, May 1942 through Dec 1943. Essentially the same system and predecessor to WITP ... but WITP has more units, more hexes and more decision dimensions ... so if you're not familiar with the war and haven't played UV ... then you might feel overwhelmed by a full campaign of WITP.

That being said ... as 2NDACR says ... use the AI ... like you would reading the RULES of chess ... knowing the rules of chess ( which pieces can move where when ) will not give you any clue how to win or how to play well against a human ... but using the AI with WITP will teach you the interface and what can be done. Maybe try the Japanese instead of the Allies if playing a 1941 or 1942 start ... the Japanese have some advantages ( which can be overcome with experience - but are less difficult initially ).

(in reply to Salient)
Post #: 4
RE: Coral Sea scenario - 1/3/2005 2:02:16 AM   
Salient

 

Posts: 64
Joined: 8/4/2003
From: Belgium
Status: offline
quote:

Training purposes means to get you used to giving orders and getting used to the interface etc. Not tactics or strategies per se. Everything is a little different in PBEM.



I see what you mean and agree, but one has to learn to play the game first. And that's what happened, I did learn alot about the game mechanics and especially the pace of the action. I made tons of mistake by wanting to do too many things at once, first time I play a game of this scale (SEIV with the Quadrant Mod is the closest I come) . Setting up mission orders,plane orders and range settings are really important and I will have to experiment with them to get the right effect.

As far as strategies go, I can try what I want but will have to learn to prepare major actions. Supply,support and aviation support have to go where they are needed even if it means stripping one base for another. And then there are a dozen more things besides the ones I already forgot .

I played through the scenario and lost, marginal Japanese victory. Was very excited to sink two transport ships and attack a CV taskforce with 3 bombs on a CVL and one on a CV, my divebombers bled heavy. If it was worth it I'll probably learn in alonger scenario

I'm just very glad I'm able to ENJOY the game, I never thought I would be able to learn or understand it. So I'll fight the AI for a while and then move to PBEM just to start from scratch again

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 5
RE: Coral Sea scenario - 1/6/2005 7:04:01 AM   
CommC

 

Posts: 467
Joined: 8/3/2002
From: Michigan, USA
Status: offline 		Well, in answer to your original question, how to beat the AI when playing the Allies in the Coral Sea scenario? Have any of you geniuses out there that think the AI is so bad ever actually beaten the AI as Allies in the Coral sea or any of the other early war scenarios? I'ld like to hear how you did it, if so.

Anyway, I haven't beaten the AI as allies in the Coral Sea scenario (yet) but here are some ideas that I think may work. To beat this scenario as allies requires, I believe, some sophisticated techniques that may not be obvious to a new player. And, indeed, these same tricks if used in PBEM could result in some ugly losses.

*** Caution *** Spoiler alert... don't read any further if haven't played this scenario and want to play it "cold" with out any fore-knowledge.





1. Strip the cruisers and most of the destroyers from the carrier TF.

2. Make two fast transport TFs from the available cruisers and destroyers in Noumea, load them with troops and send them to the 'canal and tulagi.

3. Make a third fast transport TF from the cruisers and destroyers in Brisbane, load troops and send to gili gili.

4. Transfer PBYs to PM, load troops and airlift these to gili gili

5. Put the carrier TF on max speed, not mission speed and send it east or southwest of Guadalcanal, put bombers on naval attack only, fighters on escort, 60% cap. Be ready to ambush IJN ships approaching Guadalcanal and Tulagi.

6. Transfer Beauforts and other bombers to PM and put them on naval attack. No base attack. Put fighters at PM on escort, 60% cap.

7. After your troops are unloaded, do fast in and out night bombardments (using cruisers and destroyers) of Gili, the canal and tulagi to try to catch IJN ships, without getting caught by IJN carrier air.

8. Keep your carrier force moving, preferably east of tulagi, or south. Do not loiter in the area west of Gili gili as it is infested with submarines. Try to avoid combat with the IJN carriers. Try to ambush IJN non-carrier ships. Always move your carriers at max speed, not mission speed.

9. Try to keep getting troops into Gili, the canal and Tulagi with fast transport missions, or air transport with PBYs (did this capability get taken out of WiTP? I know it was in UV)

10. If you must engage the IJN carriers, I think its best to close with them, to get your torpedo bombers in range.... but this is a little controversial.

Good luck.

CommC

_____________________________


(in reply to Salient)
Post #: 6
RE: Coral Sea scenario - 1/16/2005 7:36:47 PM   
steve99x


Posts: 77
Joined: 1/16/2005
Status: offline 		I (successfully, I thought) finished the Coral Sea scenario completely unscathed (lost a sub) and sank ALL THREE ijn carriers, in a surprise ambush and subsequent chase.
BUT the end result was a DRAW!!!

the only thing I can think of is that Tulagi was invaded as was Gili Gili and Buna...

does this affect the victory outcome in this case? I thought that with the "objective" being to repel any invasion of Port Moresby (which I did) and since the "Battle of the Coral Sea" ended for me like Midway, that this should have been a huge victory....
any thoughts????

(in reply to CommC)
Post #: 7
RE: Coral Sea scenario - 1/16/2005 9:55:04 PM   
CommC

 

Posts: 467
Joined: 8/3/2002
From: Michigan, USA
Status: offline 		Nope, indeed... the sides start out even on points. If the IJN take Gili, Tulagi and the 'canal, they get a huge number of points, especially for Tulagi and Gili Gili...

The Allied side must stop the Japanese advance AND defeat the Japanese navy to win this scenario... a very tall order considering the superiority of the Japanese forces at this point in the war.

_____________________________


(in reply to steve99x)
Post #: 8
RE: Coral Sea scenario - 1/19/2005 7:35:06 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		I have done the tutorial and now have started the South Pacific (hypothetical) as the Japs against the AI. I have had to re-start a few times after having bombers attack PM without sufficient Zeros or have one of the 2 CV's get hit hard.
It is a learning curve right now and I am trying to build up Guadalcanal and Gili Gili the best I can until I get enough CV's to take down PM (this scenario has Midway NOT happen), so I get 4 CV's from there soon. The American subs are a real problem and if there an effective ASW approach, please let me know.
As The Jap, I would say the Americans can get sufficient forces to re-take or hold 'canal real soon. I am trying to get one Brigade from Truk to both Gili Gili and Guadalcanal fast (end of May) before the Americans strike back.
The Americans and Co have made any growth on the rest of New Guinea a real difficult affair. Without CV air support, my transports have taken a pounding. Zuikaku got hit hard from PM while supporting a transport mission to bring in supplies and troops to Gili Gili and is off to Rabaul for sum repairs before going back to Truk for refit.

I like this game a lot and have a lot to learn. Any pearls of wisdom is welcomed to this 30 plus year wargamer.
P.S. had original War in the Pacific put out by SPI as a board game in late 70's. 48 square feet of maps alone. Thanks god for computers!!

(in reply to CommC)
Post #: 9
RE: Coral Sea scenario - 1/26/2005 6:54:11 PM   
pmath

 

Posts: 102
Joined: 2/19/2004
Status: offline 		The up side of the scenarios is that they reduce the scope and simplify the problem. The down side of the Coral Sea scemario vs the May '42 campaign is that you don't have strategic control of theater commitment of forces. However, the campaign allows you to give the AI control of as many map areas as you choose to reduce complexity, and overide the AI to take control of key units in those ares.
The only problem the Japs have in May of 42 is that they've conquered so much territory that it is very difficult to defend all of the empire. The Allied strategy needs to focus on raids, tactical invasions and brining force to bear where the enemy is stretched too thin. You're too restricted in the scenario to execute this effectively. You don't want to play carrier grenades with the Japs in '42. My first recommendation is to concentrate your forces (impossible w/ scenario) starting with your most important asset, your CVs. If you set up a rendezvous of your Pearl Harbor and Noumea forces somewhere in the Canton/Baker area you can create a 4 carrier strike force with powerful offensive and defensive capabilities that can cope with anything it will encounter except the original Pearl carrier strike force. I create a powerful surface fleet for bombardment and surface support and an 8 DD ASW screen. The first order of business is to employ these forces in support of reinfocement of Lunga and Port Moresby, while avoiding direct confrontation with the main Jap Carriers when they are concentrated. Try to move the battle to areas where you can leverage friendly air if you do engage a smaller Jap CV TF.

(in reply to Salient)
Post #: 10
RE: Coral Sea scenario - 1/27/2005 12:00:30 AM   
tsarnicholas


Posts: 4
Joined: 1/13/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CommC

Well, in answer to your original question, how to beat the AI when playing the Allies in the Coral Sea scenario? Have any of you geniuses out there that think the AI is so bad ever actually beaten the AI as Allies in the Coral sea or any of the other early war scenarios? I'ld like to hear how you did it, if so.

Anyway, I haven't beaten the AI as allies in the Coral Sea scenario (yet) but here are some ideas that I think may work. To beat this scenario as allies requires, I believe, some sophisticated techniques that may not be obvious to a new player. And, indeed, these same tricks if used in PBEM could result in some ugly losses.

*** Caution *** Spoiler alert... don't read any further if haven't played this scenario and want to play it "cold" with out any fore-knowledge.





1. Strip the cruisers and most of the destroyers from the carrier TF.

2. Make two fast transport TFs from the available cruisers and destroyers in Noumea, load them with troops and send them to the 'canal and tulagi.

3. Make a third fast transport TF from the cruisers and destroyers in Brisbane, load troops and send to gili gili.

4. Transfer PBYs to PM, load troops and airlift these to gili gili

5. Put the carrier TF on max speed, not mission speed and send it east or southwest of Guadalcanal, put bombers on naval attack only, fighters on escort, 60% cap. Be ready to ambush IJN ships approaching Guadalcanal and Tulagi.

6. Transfer Beauforts and other bombers to PM and put them on naval attack. No base attack. Put fighters at PM on escort, 60% cap.

7. After your troops are unloaded, do fast in and out night bombardments (using cruisers and destroyers) of Gili, the canal and tulagi to try to catch IJN ships, without getting caught by IJN carrier air.

8. Keep your carrier force moving, preferably east of tulagi, or south. Do not loiter in the area west of Gili gili as it is infested with submarines. Try to avoid combat with the IJN carriers. Try to ambush IJN non-carrier ships. Always move your carriers at max speed, not mission speed.

9. Try to keep getting troops into Gili, the canal and Tulagi with fast transport missions, or air transport with PBYs (did this capability get taken out of WiTP? I know it was in UV)

10. If you must engage the IJN carriers, I think its best to close with them, to get your torpedo bombers in range.... but this is a little controversial.

Good luck.

CommC

I did the items above and it worked great! It was the first time I came out ahead in points in the scenario! I made a run towards Rabaul with the CV's and ended up 1 hex away from the Japanese carrier fleet. They didn't spot me! I plastered their carrier fleet, Shoho sunk, and both other carriers had to dump all their aircraft. On the way out, the land based air tagged the Yorktown, then a sub attack hit it again, then a second air attack put 2 more torpedoes into her, she was limping back to port, but sank 3 days later. The Lexington air raided the shortlands on the way out, and sank more ships. This was quite a fun play on this scenario.

(in reply to CommC)
Post #: 11
RE: Coral Sea scenario - 1/27/2005 7:45:05 AM   
CommC

 

Posts: 467
Joined: 8/3/2002
From: Michigan, USA
Status: offline 		Excellent! and congratulations! This a fun and challenging scenario when playing the Allies against the AI.

On my first turn, I typically end up giving new orders to every single land, sea and air unit on the map.

_____________________________


(in reply to tsarnicholas)
Post #: 12
RE: Coral Sea scenario - 1/29/2005 9:40:20 PM   
Grotius


Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline 		I used this scenario for my first WITP PBEM, which is just finishing up now. (There's an AAR for it in the PBEM forum; I think Salient has already stopped by to check it out.) It's an excellent learning scenario! We had a little of everything: a carrier battle, a surface engagement, sub and ASW warfare, naval-air attacks, naval bombardment, and air raids on opposing bases. Quite an action-packed little scenario.

(in reply to CommC)
Post #: 13
RE: Coral Sea scenario...more ?s - 2/2/2005 3:52:35 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		I am back to trying smaller and easier scenarios before going back to a full map scenario. Thus, I am playing the hypothetical South Pacific as the Allies vs AI. I like your strategy for the Allies Mr Tsarnicholas, but have a few suggestions to run by everyone.
PM is very important to hold and then expand upon. The problem with it is the lack of aviation support for all the planes that can be based there. So how do you fix it?? Option #1 - Move your transports (C-47 and PBY) to Cooktown and transport the Aviation Regiment to PM while marching up a replacement from Brisbane. Option #2 - make a transport TF and run it up to PM (make sure you maintain a high CAP level to keep Jap bombers away when unloading). Option #3 - I haven't thought of one....

Question/Observation: I have lost a battle to the Jap's at Gili Gili and my troops retreat to PM over night... However, to march from PM to Gili Gili takes WEEKS....
Question #2 - May have been addressed somewhere else. How do you move supplies overland??

(in reply to Salient)
Post #: 14
RE: Coral Sea scenario...more ?s - 2/2/2005 4:18:52 PM   
Grotius


Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline 		ny59, I suppose another option for moving a base force to PM is to use a Fast Transport TF. But if it were me and I had only one unit to move, I'd probably use the supply transport planes. Keep in mind that they probably won't be able to move anything huge, like certain vehicles, so some remnants of the unit may be left behind. That's not the end of the world.

Supply moves automatically over-land. Most of it moves quickly over rail. It moves slower and less efficiently over roads. It moves very slowly over paths. It's awful in open country. The manual supplies details. Unfortunately, we don't have any direct control over movement of supplies over-land. Many players have requested this feature, though, so who knows...

As for your retreating units, is one option to rescue them with a Fast Transport or Transport TF, or does that require that they be in a port? I can't remember. :)

(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 15
RE: Coral Sea scenario...more ?s - 2/8/2005 8:25:25 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		I have begun the hypothetical South Pacific scenario (May42 to Feb43)as the Allies vs AI. Time is now mid-august 42. Some lessons learned....
1. I have loss 3 AO to sub attacks... Thus, keep more than one DD as escorts.
2. PM got hit hard early and was down to 10 Fighters at one time, had to pull back everything else (bombers) and l set escort at 90%. Now back to 30 plus, but nothing else. I have two groups of F4F going from New Calendonia to Australia, before flying over to PM. Want the Jap attacks again PM to wear down against 90% cap before my bombers come back over.
3. I lost BB North Carolina off Guadalcanal after I let the Bombardment group patrol in order to send it up the "slot" to hit Shortland. LB from Rabaul hit it and "1" Torpedo sunk it... Fell victim to the 4% rule! . Tried a bombardment attack against Shortland and ran into intense Coastal Defense guns...
4. I have only two CV's (Saratoga & Wasp) that have no Systems damage. I have the other 4 CV'S with 20 to 40 Systems points damage in New Calendonia. The Jap CV's have all been sunk or heavily damaged... Some Jap CV's took over 20 1000lb bombs (lack of torpedo carrying planes)... Cannot go off too much due to 5 plus BB's running around including the Yamato... I hit it with long range aircraft, but they dropped only 250lb bombs (like those were going to do any damage...).
5. The superiority of the Zero. I knew the Allies had problems early in the war against them, but not this much trouble... Playing this game is sure a lesson in quality vs quanity.
6. Tactics - Trying to coordinate my attacks has been a learning experience!!
I have yet to perfect how to time my attacks against Jap TF with my carrier groups. The only surface to surface I have had is off G'canal against transport TF's. I want a major BB/CA type engagement. Moving ships to places with inadequate Cap has been hard on some of my capital ships/transports.

Final ??? I will address this on another thread, but want to mention it here. I have the 4 CV's with 20 to 40 system damage (all other gone) disbanded in port (size 8). There is also some other ships with minor system damages also. How do you speed up the repair?? Does the number of ships in that port influnce this?? Does the computer randomly pick which ships to remove a point of system damage each turn?

Upcoming plan of attack:
1. Start up two bombardment groups to soften up G'canal. Base them in Espito Santo.
2. Move my 2 undamaged CV's there also to start to work over G'canal and Shortland.
3. Unload 2 VMF Squadrons in Australia and transfer them to PM. After the Japs wear down on the CAP start to level Lae to powder.
4. Celebrate my birthday (9/1) by landing on G'Canal. Wish me luck!!

< Message edited by ny59giants -- 2/8/2005 6:50:33 PM >

(in reply to Grotius)
Post #: 16
RE: Coral Sea scenario...more ?s - 2/8/2005 8:32:07 PM   
tsimmonds


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline
quote:

4 CV's with 20 to 40 system damage (all other gone) disbanded in port (size 8). There is also some other ships with minor system damages also. How do you speed up the repair??


Make it a size 9 port.

Got any ARs?

Put a naval HQ at the base.

_____________________________

Fear the kitten!

(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 17
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