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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> WitP vs. Real War

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WitP vs. Real War - 2/9/2005 12:20:41 AM

mc3744

Posts: 1957
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From: Italy
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First of all let me say that the closest I've been to a real war is in books and movies (plus the officer accademy

)

I wanted to hear from you about 'my chaos theory' as a good PBEM friend of mine calls it.

We all know that in WitP there are bugs, some random inexplicable events, plus the stupid human mistakes of forgetting, for example, a little setting like reaction on and loosing therefore just a couple of irrelevant CVs!

Now my theory is that, unwillingly, through those events, WitP simulates the sad reality of: '**** happens'.
Whatever is hard coded has some difficulty to recreate the human behaviour, especially in war: stupidity, cowardice, egotism, heroism, ...
All those little things that, in a real war, can screw an excellent plan.
If WitP was bugs free an excellent plan would almost always bring excellent results. However, thanks to the various bugs, you can find your wonderful offensive stopped because your troops just took the wrong way (did I mention something familiar?

) and went picnicking in the forest. That's what could happen (almost

) in reality, but not in a 'normal' PC game.
The beauty of it is in the fact that, given the lenght of the game, it will probably even itself over time. Creating a good mix of good and bad luck for both sides.

Now tell me if I'm gone crazy waiting for my next PBEM turn

of if any of you believes that it makes some sense.

Cheers

Post #: 1

RE: WitP vs. Real War - 2/9/2005 1:06:22 AM

Onime No Kyo

Posts: 16842
Joined: 4/28/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mc3744

First of all let me say that the closest I've been to a real war is in books and movies (plus the officer accademy )

I wanted to hear from you about 'my chaos theory' as a good PBEM friend of mine calls it.

We all know that in WitP there are bugs, some random inexplicable events, plus the stupid human mistakes of forgetting, for example, a little setting like reaction on and loosing therefore just a couple of irrelevant CVs!

Now my theory is that, unwillingly, through those events, WitP simulates the sad reality of: '**** happens'.
Whatever is hard coded has some difficulty to recreate the human behaviour, especially in war: stupidity, cowardice, egotism, heroism, ...
All those little things that, in a real war, can screw an excellent plan.
If WitP was bugs free an excellent plan would almost always bring excellent results. However, thanks to the various bugs, you can find your wonderful offensive stopped because your troops just took the wrong way (did I mention something familiar? ) and went picnicking in the forest. That's what could happen (almost ) in reality, but not in a 'normal' PC game.
The beauty of it is in the fact that, given the lenght of the game, it will probably even itself over time. Creating a good mix of good and bad luck for both sides.

Now tell me if I'm gone crazy waiting for my next PBEM turn of if any of you believes that it makes some sense.

Cheers

I agree with you in principle. I am, however, opposed to PARTICULARLY stupid stuff. I also have a bad aftertaste from thing that I know are bugs and not just a random element.

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Post #: 2

RE: WitP vs. Real War - 2/9/2005 1:11:17 AM

mc3744

Posts: 1957
Joined: 3/9/2004
From: Italy
Status: offline

Yep, despite my wonderful theory

the aftertaste remains.
Still the theory helps me washing it away

(in reply to Onime No Kyo)

Post #: 3

RE: WitP vs. Real War - 2/9/2005 1:20:29 AM

Onime No Kyo

Posts: 16842
Joined: 4/28/2004
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I dont flip out over too many things in WitP. I just tend to roll with it, although I have been known to get "emotional" over other games. I dont see anything about the game as it is now as a "gamebreaker". Now, there was a game called Fighting Steel IIRC, that CTDd ever 30 minutes. There was a gamebreaker. Anything short of that I can live with.

I think that the game should absolutely continue to be improved, but I also think that many people on this forum greatly overreact.

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Post #: 4

RE: WitP vs. Real War - 2/9/2005 1:49:27 AM

Lonewolfpj

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From: Washington DC
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I think you really make a good point. The bugs draw frustration which is important to drawing out emotions that you might get as a comander. I think what they need to do is form more built in X factors that can cause weird thing's to happen like only a few men standing up to a large army or esorts missing there assinmets. Becuse this happens in real war but to have bugs like system lock up are just annoying

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Post #: 5

RE: WitP vs. Real War - 2/9/2005 1:59:02 AM

mogami

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Hi, I think one of the largest weakness found in WITP is the abilty to execute operations in near flawless manner. (Thank goodness I am unable to do this)

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RE: WitP vs. Real War - 2/9/2005 2:08:31 AM

pasternakski

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You're nuts, the pair of ya.

It's one thing when a game sets out to build in some of the command frustration the real people felt (and WitP does attempt this). It's another thing entirely when the game is just f#cked up in certain unintended ways.

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 7

RE: WitP vs. Real War - 2/9/2005 3:22:39 AM

Dutchgy2000

Posts: 175
Joined: 2/3/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

You're nuts, the pair of ya.

It's one thing when a game sets out to build in some of the command frustration the real people felt (and WitP does attempt this). It's another thing entirely when the game is just f#cked up in certain unintended ways.

Sounds like a definition of war to me.

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Post #: 8

RE: WitP vs. Real War - 2/9/2005 3:29:56 AM

pasternakski

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It's a good definition of war. It is not a definition of a good wargame.

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Post #: 9

RE: WitP vs. Real War - 2/9/2005 3:33:57 AM

von Murrin

Posts: 1760
Joined: 11/13/2001
From: That from which there is no escape.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dutchgy2000

quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

You're nuts, the pair of ya.

It's one thing when a game sets out to build in some of the command frustration the real people felt (and WitP does attempt this). It's another thing entirely when the game is just f#cked up in certain unintended ways.

Sounds like a definition of war to me.

Having McCain beamed off the Enterprise to the bridge of her fictional interstellar counterpart just before a reenactment of Midway is not war. It is science fiction.

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Post #: 10

RE: WitP vs. Real War - 2/9/2005 3:42:55 AM

Dutchgy2000

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Joined: 2/3/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: von Murrin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dutchgy2000

quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

You're nuts, the pair of ya.

It's one thing when a game sets out to build in some of the command frustration the real people felt (and WitP does attempt this). It's another thing entirely when the game is just f#cked up in certain unintended ways.

Sounds like a definition of war to me.

Having McCain beamed off the Enterprise to the bridge of her fictional interstellar counterpart just before a reenactment of Midway is not war. It is science fiction.

Nope, expecting him to be there for the next 5 years just because you put him there is science fiction. Things happen, even if it�s not war... maybe he fell of the stairs... fell out of bed because of a high wave, bumped his head, or even fell of the ship... lots of times people have to take over when they were not originally designed to do so. Now him appearing on the west coast again after something like that, that would be sience fiction... but then again... with those dissapearing leaders... fat chance of him showing up again.

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Post #: 11

RE: WitP vs. Real War - 2/9/2005 3:52:52 AM

von Murrin

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Which is my point entirely. If he falls down the stairs and bumps his gourd, I want his ass back in CIC within a month.

There is a vast difference between bugs and design. The game has inherent randomness. Having McCain spontaneously combust or deep-sixing the entire theater because a radar-equipped fighter takes off isn't part of the design. Anything attempting to justify such things makes for a poor argument, IMO.

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Post #: 12

RE: WitP vs. Real War - 2/9/2005 4:03:22 AM

Dutchgy2000

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Yep... but then again, having him in command, loosing 3 carriers in the next battle, and then still keeping him for the next 4 years just because he has �good stats� isn�t all that realistic either. Where�s all the random p�liticians screaming for his head and f***** up all the warplans ya had for this guy in the game?

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Post #: 13

RE: WitP vs. Real War - 2/9/2005 4:05:59 AM

von Murrin

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If he loses three CV's, he'll be commanding a desk. I'll brook no excuses for my failures.

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Post #: 14

RE: WitP vs. Real War - 2/9/2005 4:07:13 AM

Tankerace

Posts: 6400
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From: Stillwater, OK, United States
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The buck stops.... over there.

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RE: WitP vs. Real War - 2/9/2005 4:28:04 AM

von Murrin

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From: That from which there is no escape.
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LOL

That's the spirit!

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Post #: 16

RE: WitP vs. Real War - 2/9/2005 4:40:18 AM

Dutchgy2000

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Joined: 2/3/2005
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I never loose CV�s ... i just �upgrade� them to really big subs.

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Our business in the field of fight, Is not to question, but to prove our might.

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Post #: 17

RE: WitP vs. Real War - 2/9/2005 4:44:15 AM

Tankerace

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From: Stillwater, OK, United States
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All ships can submerge, only subs can surface

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RE: WitP vs. Real War - 2/9/2005 5:19:24 AM

Dutchgy2000

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

All ships can submerge, only subs can surface

Maybe you should make that only subs can surface by themselves, or that would make Oklahoma, California and West-Verginia subs also

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Our business in the field of fight, Is not to question, but to prove our might.

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Post #: 19

RE: WitP vs. Real War - 2/9/2005 5:21:16 AM

Tom Hunter

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I don't let the crazyness bother me but I agree that there is a difference between buggy crazyness and realism crazyness.

I find the nutty behavior of the game does even out over time. Both my games have black eyes and broken teeth on both sides and they are only in Feb and March 42

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Post #: 20

RE: WitP vs. Real War - 2/9/2005 5:31:10 AM

TF 38

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This is the bset game that I have played since I began wargames. I try not to look at the big stuff but the details are very well done and I will never stop playng WitP!

Mike

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Post #: 21

RE: WitP vs. Real War - 2/10/2005 1:32:44 AM

RUPD3658

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From: East Brunswick, NJ
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Just think of it all this way:

If you did not have bugs to blame for your failures then the blame would have to fall on you.

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Post #: 22

RE: WitP vs. Real War - 2/10/2005 1:50:19 AM

byron13

Posts: 1589
Joined: 7/27/2001
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

You're nuts, the pair of ya.

It's one thing when a game sets out to build in some of the command frustration the real people felt (and WitP does attempt this). It's another thing entirely when the game is just f#cked up in certain unintended ways.

I'm satisfied with the game. Heck, I've played it longer than any other game I've ever had and definitely received my money's worth. But there are some things that happen that just cannot be rationalized as "stuff happens." I remember a post where they player landed an entire division in India - a very valuable unit. Just when almost the entire division was unloaded, the ship with the parent unit was sunk, and the entire division disappeared. Now here's a guy that probably took all the right precautions: plenty of escort, air cover, loading the unit on multiple APs - and the whole division disappears. Hard to rationalize. What, a typhoon sank them all? Transport your units by air and )poof!( its gone. Those are real issues.

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Post #: 23

RE: WitP vs. Real War - 2/10/2005 4:14:18 PM

mc3744

Posts: 1957
Joined: 3/9/2004
From: Italy
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quote:

ORIGINAL: byron13

quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

You're nuts, the pair of ya.

It's one thing when a game sets out to build in some of the command frustration the real people felt (and WitP does attempt this). It's another thing entirely when the game is just f#cked up in certain unintended ways.

I'm satisfied with the game. Heck, I've played it longer than any other game I've ever had and definitely received my money's worth. But there are some things that happen that just cannot be rationalized as "stuff happens." I remember a post where they player landed an entire division in India - a very valuable unit. Just when almost the entire division was unloaded, the ship with the parent unit was sunk, and the entire division disappeared. Now here's a guy that probably took all the right precautions: plenty of escort, air cover, loading the unit on multiple APs - and the whole division disappears. Hard to rationalize. What, a typhoon sank them all? Transport your units by air and )poof!( its gone. Those are real issues.

Yes they are real issues. I won't pretend that the random bugs are perfectly matching the randomness of war. I'm only saying that, since it's basically impossible to insert in a binary code the unpredictable events of real life, these kind of bugs match the unpredictability not in their content but in their random structure.
And - maybe - they make the game closer to real life than it WitP was completely bug free.

Anyway it's by far the best game I've played, ever. And I've played lots and lots!

(in reply to byron13)

Post #: 24

RE: WitP vs. Real War - 2/10/2005 4:45:38 PM

Nikademus

Posts: 25684
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From: Alien spacecraft
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I think one of the largest weakness found in WITP is the abilty to execute operations in near flawless manner. (Thank goodness I am unable to do this)

Try two day turns.....its alot harder to be 'precision perfect' when you cant be there every 24 hours to fine tune every move and order.

Better yet....do the team thing and have an overall commander whittle out orders and reinforcements. I'll bet thats a boatload of fun. YOU....ABDA guy.....i'm taking away the Houston and Boise for another operation in the North.

"But sir.....i NEED those ships here for defence of Batavia!"

"You have your orders....expedite immediately"

hee.

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Post #: 25

RE: WitP vs. Real War - 2/11/2005 5:01:21 AM

BrucePowers

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Hey lets all go play Master of Orion III; oh wait a minute I lost the play disk about 3 weeks after I bought the game (the only game disk I have ever lost), and I haven't tried too hard to find it. I'll stick with WiTP.

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Post #: 26