Slitherine

quote:

Dutchgy2000

Yep.. but in this case as Japanese supreme commander that risk would be up to me...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, When you plan the operation you have to assume that every Allied base has a patrol plane and that patrol plane will detect your TF. Anything else is plain crazy. (In real life)
You have to assume Allied CV are about.
That Allied submaries are about
That Allied surface ships are about.

Now if you load a scenario and record where every allied unit is and then you go and enter orders for turn 1 you can look like a genius but all you are is a master exploiter and that term sounds close to what a person who does this is doing. (Gratifiying himself without a partner)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, When you plan the operation you have to assume that every Allied base has a patrol plane and that patrol plane will detect your TF. Anything else is plain crazy. (In real life)
You have to assume Allied CV are about.
That Allied submaries are about
That Allied surface ships are about.

Now if you load a scenario and record where every allied unit is and then you go and enter orders for turn 1 you can look like a genius but all you are is a master exploiter and that term sounds close to what a person who does this is doing. (Gratifiying himself without a partner)

quote:

Ok, so you find one ship... it sees you... turns around or takes a long route home while warning the others with some kinda code... so your ´shaddowing´ warship is out of position and the others land as planned... just one write off... not to bad.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I would have just assigned ASW escorts a surface TF and LRCAP

quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees

quote:

Ok, so you find one ship... it sees you... turns around or takes a long route home while warning the others with some kinda code... so your ´shaddowing´ warship is out of position and the others land as planned... just one write off... not to bad.

Your counting on every transport CO to be an independent thinker, with clear and precise picture of whats going on in the wide world around him, and who is willing to take initiative and abort the sailing plan without direct orders. Not likely. Possible for a couple of them guys, but not all. Even inside the military, you can find a bunch of commanders who can't make up their mind to save their own skins.

Warship can't be "out of position" in Makassar strait, which, navigationally speaking, is not all that wide in the first place. (20 or so miles max. Visual range.)

Nice try, though. You as a player have more control over every unit in the game, at all times, than was possible IRL. This gives the (false) impression of military manuevers, and coordination of shipping/airstrikes, as being simple. They weren't. Lookit the US airline system. Close one airport for weather, and the majority of the system from coast to coast is SNAFU'd.

quote:

The point of all this is, in relation to the Japanese 1st turn bonus in the game, that just because you know they are coming doesn't mean you can do a damn thing about it when your leadership has their thumb up their arse trying to figure out something that should have been planned and practised well in advance.

quote:

Yep.. but in this case as Japanese supreme commander that risk would be up to me... if i wanna fly 25 unescorted convoys around all over the place for you to easy pick off on the lucky chance one of my landings might work out... let me. (i know.. far stretch of the imagination seeing that supreme command wouldn´t let me.. but on a smaller scale.. why not.. if i think the pay of is big enough). Come on... in the 1930/40´s as japan ´ya just don´t invade china... ya just don´t take over french indo-china... ya just don´t attack Pearl.... etc. etc.

quote:

ORIGINAL: moses

Except it doesn't work that way IRL. Transports are pretey slow and if you have 15 to 20 fleets headed to allied bases they will be seen and everything is alerted. Surprise is lost and my ships/planes can start reacting sometime between 3-6 December.

You are taking zero risk on turn one. IRL launching multiple lightly escorted invasions deep into enemy waters would have been unimaginably risky. Plus you get to arrive with a full load of fuel.

As Japan I start very conservativly but still have many opportunities to surprise the allied player. Its not that difficult to exceed the historical rate of advance without the expolits.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees

quote:

Yep.. but in this case as Japanese supreme commander that risk would be up to me... if i wanna fly 25 unescorted convoys around all over the place for you to easy pick off on the lucky chance one of my landings might work out... let me. (i know.. far stretch of the imagination seeing that supreme command wouldn´t let me.. but on a smaller scale.. why not.. if i think the pay of is big enough). Come on... in the 1930/40´s as japan ´ya just don´t invade china... ya just don´t take over french indo-china... ya just don´t attack Pearl.... etc. etc.

The point is: the turn 1 surprise rule means that there is NO RISK. Jeepers. Everyone has said they don't mind that you do this as long as you allow the Allied player to react as would be possible IRL. The turn 1 surprise rule prevents that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dutchgy2000

quote:

ORIGINAL: moses

Except it doesn't work that way IRL. Transports are pretey slow and if you have 15 to 20 fleets headed to allied bases they will be seen and everything is alerted. Surprise is lost and my ships/planes can start reacting sometime between 3-6 December.

You are taking zero risk on turn one. IRL launching multiple lightly escorted invasions deep into enemy waters would have been unimaginably risky. Plus you get to arrive with a full load of fuel.

As Japan I start very conservativly but still have many opportunities to surprise the allied player. Its not that difficult to exceed the historical rate of advance without the expolits.

Yeah but as commander pacific of the allies i would also think that a raid on Pearl woud be unimaginably risky... if i didn´t have hindsight now an knew it happened.. that´s the trap. I didn´t say that´s what i do.. i said in some (limited maybe) way it should be possible to be suprised.. whatever ya think about being spotted or not... well.. then irl abort and try again later.. maybe.. or not... no harm done.. its not war yet... but not possible in game terms.

quote:

And the coordination was exactly my point... so how come i can´t coordinate a small suprise invasion.. but on the other side if i get detected suddenly the allies expect a fully organised responce because they ´caught me´

quote:

ORIGINAL: moses

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dutchgy2000

quote:

ORIGINAL: moses

Except it doesn't work that way IRL. Transports are pretey slow and if you have 15 to 20 fleets headed to allied bases they will be seen and everything is alerted. Surprise is lost and my ships/planes can start reacting sometime between 3-6 December.

You are taking zero risk on turn one. IRL launching multiple lightly escorted invasions deep into enemy waters would have been unimaginably risky. Plus you get to arrive with a full load of fuel.

As Japan I start very conservativly but still have many opportunities to surprise the allied player. Its not that difficult to exceed the historical rate of advance without the expolits.

Yeah but as commander pacific of the allies i would also think that a raid on Pearl woud be unimaginably risky... if i didn´t have hindsight now an knew it happened.. that´s the trap. I didn´t say that´s what i do.. i said in some (limited maybe) way it should be possible to be suprised.. whatever ya think about being spotted or not... well.. then irl abort and try again later.. maybe.. or not... no harm done.. its not war yet... but not possible in game terms.

Ok I would say Japan can use KB and associated landing force to hit any single location, or small cluster of bases, anywhere on the map. So if you want to hit Palembang on turn one you send KB and your transports and do it. But no PH now and no other fleets outside your airspace on turn one.

quote:

Dutchgy2000

In real live i would not know there is no risk!

quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees

quote:

And the coordination was exactly my point... so how come i can´t coordinate a small suprise invasion.. but on the other side if i get detected suddenly the allies expect a fully organised responce because they ´caught me´

Your trying to have it both ways, it seems to me. You want to be able to have surprise invasions (claiming that you should be able to coordinate the scattered 10 or 15 ships sailing independently, and have them arrive on time, on target, without being spotted and identified) insisting that you don't need much coordination, and yet insist that the Allied air units (which are distinct organisational entities that have trained and lived together for many months as a single unit) can't possibly be flying patrols due to lack of coordination or leadership? I don't see how that is a reasonable "might have been".

(Whew! how's THAT for a single run-on sentence?)

Even if they were flying, the Allied player cannot respond to any invasion forces sighted because of the Turn 1 surprise restrictions (these are hard coded, by the way, not house rules).

quote:

ORIGINAL: moses

quote:

Dutchgy2000

In real live i would not know there is no risk!

If your sailing 20 transports escorted by a cruser and a couple of destroyers and your sailing outside of your airspace into the enemies.. Trust me. You know that there's a risk.

Its just not plausable. The enemy can track you for days and if they have a BB within 500 miles you might very well have your entire fleet sunk. A single allied crusier can cause terrible headaches for you as he knows where you are and you don't.

This kind of plan would never even be considered by a professional. Its totally based on the enemy just sitting by and watching your attack. If the enemy responds you die.